Talk:Documentary hypothesis

Repetitions that don't conflict

I am editing the following because of gross inaccuracies or otherwise easily explainable situations:

"Exodus 38:26 mentions "603,550 men over 20 years old included in the census" immediately after passage of the Red Sea, while Numbers 1:44-45 cites the precisely identical count, "The tally of Israelites according to their paternal families, those over 20 years old, all fit for service. The entire tally was 603,550", in a census taken a full year later, "on the first [day] of the second month in the second year of the Exodus" (Numbers 1:1);"

In actuality, the first mention of the census in Ex 38:26 occurs after the construction of the tabernacle (which Numbers agrees with), some 24 chapters after the red sea crossing. I have kept only the fact that the same census is mentioned in two different books.

Moses' wife, though often identified as a Midianite (and hence Semitic), appears in the tale of Snow-white Miriam as a "Cushite" (Ethiopian), and hence black;

Moses' Cushite wife in Numbers 12 is unnamed and most likely refers to an extra-biblical event, and thus should not be confused with his Midianite wife Zipporah from Exodus 2, judging from gross disparity in chronology (i.e. why would Miriam and Aaron choose to bring up the issue of a foreign born wife many years after the fact?). At the time, it was not out of the ordinary for a man to have multiple wives.

Clown (talk) 01:00, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

Taking Issue with the Documentary Hypothesis

discussion removed from artice:

[Taking Issue with the Documentary Hypothesis: despite the excellent work of the author of this article, it should be noted that "The Documentary Hypothesis" (i.e., the Pentateuch is a compostie of 4 separate sources) while once accepted by the vast majority of Biblical scholars - is now only taught/promoted in universities and mainline/liberal seminaries in the United States. While the vast majority of scholars (except for orthodox Jewish and Christian ones) still reject Mosaic authoriship, the Documentary Hypothesis has (to the best of my knowledge) been rejected by European scholars, and is no longer taught as a valid theory in Tubingen, Oxford, Cambridge, Edinburough, Aberdeen, Toulouse, Paris, or any of the more prestigious Biblical Studies programs throughout Europe. Unfortunately, I have no citations or references for this except my own memory from my Masters program from 14 years ago, and that was from lectures and studies in the basic coursework, and not in my specialty, which is early Christianity, so please, consider the source, and check into the facts on your own.]—The preceding comment was added by 210.4.139.129 (talk • contribs) 10:54, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

There are sources citing DH as the most accepted hypothesis. Are there sources citing DH as no longer the most accepted hypothesis? The trick is that some people like to play up differences between today's version of DH and the 100-year old version. Do scholars say that the consensus has "collapsed"? If not, we should cite our sources and describe DH as the most-accepted hypothesis. Documentary HypothesisLeadwind 21:43, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

I think the problem is that the term "documentary hypothesis" has two meanings - Wellhausen's 4-document hypothesis, and at the same time any hypothesis that sees the Torah's origins in independent documents, no matter how many they may be. It boiols down to a difference between "hypothesis" and "model" - Wellhausen put forward a specific and influential hypothesis using a documentary model, while Van Seters, according to what he himself says on the subject, has been championing a hypothesis which uses a fragmentary model - i.e., not any kind of documentary hypothesis, even though others have decribed him as using a reduced documentary hypothesis because he refers to a J-author and a D-author. The big and crucial difference, as Van Seters explains it, is that he (Van Seters) vehemently rejects the concept of the Redactor, the "deus ex-machina" demanded by the logic of the DH to explain how the four documents came to be combined. If there were no Redactor, we'd be facing today an OT equivalent of the Four Gospels. Yet while the Redactor is a logical necessity, there's no actual evidence of his handiwork (says Van Seters). Anyway, to answer the point you make in your final sentence, every scholar who has produced a new theory outside the documentary model has begun with an explanation of why he felt it necessary to do so. The major names are mentioned in the final section of the article. The article tries to explain that Wellhausen is only one version of the documentary hypothesis, albeit the most widely known and most influential. It also explains, in the final section, how the acceptance of Wllhausen collapsed - basically, people came to accept that the redactor was a problem as much as a solution, a theoretical figure demanded by the hypothesis but not evidenced by the text itself. This was one of Friedman's concerns, to show just what the Redactor had contributed, thus answering these critics, but his revised hypothesis hasn't been widely accepted. PiCo 11:09, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

There is much in this section that I believe to be incorrect. The DH is in fact accepted by nearly every major university in BOTH the USA and Europe. A statement was even made here that it is not longer taught at Cambridge or Oxford. This is a false statement. Oxford does indeed teach the DH in its current Faculty of Theology department and even encourages students to submit specimen papers on the subject in its "Handbook for Bachelor of Theology". Cambridge has in its theological department a course in Old Testament studies called "Reading the Old Testament" in which students are asked to study Dom Henry Wansbrough's "Introduction to Genesis" which includes a discussion of the DH. Cambridge students are encouraged to write, as one of their required essays for this class, a paper on the "two flood accounts" as shown by the DH. Wansbrough's "Introduction to Genesis" can be read online here, and as you can see, like most scholars, he has a very favorable opinion of the DH:

http://users.ox.ac.uk/~sben0056//bkl-genesis1.htm

The DH has certainly not undergone any kind of "collapse". —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cws51923 (talk • contribs) 17:43, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

BC/BCE

"... and consensus for the change with other editors."

I don't care what convention is used, whether BC or BCE. I do object to someone making a change in violation of standards. I'm not going to give in to the temptation to continuing an edit war. I'm giving you the chance to stand up for your opinion. But if you don't want to gather a "consensus for the change" .... TomS TDotO (talk) 13:25, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

The change wasn't in violation of standards because the article used both BC and BCE dating styles. I chose BC because it was first used and there was need for consistency 66.31.110.254 (talk) 13:44, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

Thank you. I agree that it is preferable to have the article use a uniform style. As the article stands now, however, there are only two places where the BC style is used, under Documentary hypothesis#The beginnings of the documenary hypothesis, where it says, "the reign of Josiah in 621 BC"; and under Documentary hypothesis#After Wellhausen, where it says, "in the first millennium BC". Elsewhere, there are many uses of the BCE style. Just on the basis of numbers, it would superficially seem preferable to change the two cases of BC to BCE. As I said, however, I don't care, but unless there is some reason not to, I suggest that these two instances be so changed. What I do strongly feel about is that we try to keep cool about it, and let's discuss it before acting unilaterally. I realize that some people feel strongly one way or the other, but let's not attribute bad faith to the other side. TomS TDotO (talk) 14:58, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

Early date of P - consequences for Ezekiel?

The text says that Friedmann and Kaufmann argue for P dating from Hezekiah instead of Post Exilic.

With Post Exilic P the religious laws in the text evolve as follows

1. Ritual Decalogue (J)/ Covenant Code (E)
2. Deuteronomic Code (D)
3. Implications of the Book of Ezekiel
4. Holiness Code (H = early layer of P)
5. Priestly Code (later layer of P)

but if you put P in Hezekiah's time it becomes (leaving out the priestly code and ezekiel):

1. Ritual Decalogue (J)/ Covenant Code (E)
2. Holiness Code (H = early layer of P)
3. Deuteronomic Code (D)

So where do Friedmann and Kaufmann put

• Implications of the Book of Ezekiel
• Priestly Code (later layer of P)

in relation to the Deuteronomic Code (D), and how is that rectified with the date of Ezekiel?

Newman Luke (talk) 16:40, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

The Amber Witch link itself is weasel

There is no mention in the Amber Witch Hoax article to DH or even the idea behind DH. This is weaselly link to suggest that the DH is also a hoax. These topics are not related. — fcsuper ^{(How's That?, That's How!)} _{(Exclusionistic Immediatist )} — 17:45, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

The Amber Witch#Background has a discussion which begins: "The author's intention had been to set a deliberate "trap for the disciples of David Strauss and his school who pronounced the scriptures of the Old and New Testament to be a collection of legends from historical research assisted by internal evidence".[8]" I am not defending the idea that the Amber Witch Hoax was an appropriate attack on the DH (and certainly not that the DH is itself a hoax), but merely that it is a mildly interesting topic in the history of the idea, at least worth passing reference. TomS TDotO (talk) 19:17, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

Nobody is interested in The Amber Witch? TomS TDotO (talk) 12:28, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

Proposal to redirect Ritual decalogue to Covenant code

Please see my proposal here and comment/vote. Thanks, Slrubenstein | Talk 15:46, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

Support for Mosaic authorship

Are we really supposed to take seriously a reference which supports Mosaic authorship by saying that with God all things are possible? TomS TDotO (talk) 15:39, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

Lacking any positive support for this reference, I'll revert the addition. TomS TDotO (talk) 16:03, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

Blenkinsopp book?

This sentence says: "Whybray's questions pertaining to the documentary hypothesis, however, have been largely answered[citation needed] by Joseph Blenkinsopp." Then we have a whole para about Blenkinsopp's answer. Much as I admire Blenkinsopp, this really needs a source - does anyone know what we're referring to? PiCo (talk) 11:37, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

Figure

We currently have this figure on the DH view re the development of the Torah:

Diagram of the Documentary Hypothesis.

*	includes most of Leviticus
†	includes most of Deuteronomy
‡	"Deuteronomic history": Joshua, Judges, 1 & 2 Samuel, 1 & 2 Kings

It's someone's personal work, and I think them for the effort they've put into it, but I believe it's a little bit not quite right in places. It puts J and E side by side, as if they came from the same time, when the theory holds that J was slighly earlier; and it seems to have D earlier than P, when the classic view has them the other way round. It also has a set of boxes for the Deuteronomistic history, which is really a separate if related issue. I wonder if anyone feels like either revising it or finding a free source we can use? PiCo (talk) 23:40, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

Restoring a missing section of this article

There was a large section of this article that was deleted. The opinions of many Bible scholars were wiped out and replaced with this pious statement: "but none doubted the truth of the tradition." But this claim is simply incorrect.

That is why it is important to restore the deleted section. Critical academic study of the Torah's origins began in classical rabbinic Judaism, what some call Orthodox Judaism, centuries before Wellhausen - and as the sources quoted herein state, the existence of such views are explicitly recognized by Orthodox rabbis. In fact, the sources given within the article name an entire book on the academic, critical text study of the Torah, Bible and rabbinic literature from an Orthodox Jewish point of view.

RK (talk) 17:41, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

The "pious statement" is a quote from Gordon Wenham, a respected (and not fundamentalist) scholar. Wenham was talking about the difference between traditional and modern attitudes - before Astruc scholars didn't question or care who wrote the bible. You mention early Jewish scholars, but people like Ibn Ezra are very few and far between - the exception, and a very rare one. PiCo (talk) 10:26, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

The heart of this article was cut out: Now restored

Today, the vast majority of Bible scholars believe that the Torah is a composite document, edited together from a variety of earlier sources. (This view is also accepted as correct by all rabbis and scholars in non-Orthodox forms of Judaism, and by many priests and scholars in many forms of Christianity.) Why would anyone believe this? Shouldn't this article describe the reasoning behind the people who hold this point of view?

In point of fact, this article used to do just that. There was a section, Major areas considered to support the documentary hypothesis include. Just as importantly, this article used to note that: "Many portions of the Torah seem to imply more than one author. Doublets and triplets repeat stories with different points of view." This is a hugely important point. While at one point this article featured these sections front and center, for years, a while back somone cut out this section, leaving the article hanging in mid-air, presenting complicated views without summarizing the major textual reasons for people having such views. As such, I have restored this section. RK (talk) 20:28, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

I've cut this out, not because I disagree with it (I agree), but because I believe it to be unnecessary. The idea that the Torah is a composite is universal - there's no need to argue for it. PiCo (talk) 10:23, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

I strenuously disagree. I have worked in general education and religious education, and I can tell you that this impression is incorrect. A great many Christians deny the essentials of the documentary hypothesis, possibly the majority of Christians in the world! And so do many Jews, including nearly all of the Orthodox Jewish community. Most people I have discussed the Bible with, in fact, simply assume that the Torah is more or less directly from Moses, even if they are agnostics or atheists. RK (talk) 16:57, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

Removing all the evidence and logic is a very bad idea

The latest edits to this article, Documentary Hypothesis, removes the summary of reasons that scholars believe that the Torah is a composite document. I am concerned, because a few years ago, some Orthodox Jewish, and traditional Christians, made these same types of edits - to make it look like the documentary hypothesis is less likely to be correct, and that fundamentalist teachings were more likely to be certainly true.

Because of the huge amount of material deleted by PiCo, all that is left of this article are various ideas that the Torah is composite...but without a good summary of the logical reasons why. I think that it is important for us to summarize the logic and textual evidence. If we do not have this, then I can assure that this article will be (mis)used to "prove" that there isn't a serious case to accept that the Torah is composite. Rather, it will (as it has been before) be used to "prove" that the Torah is unitary and (mostly) unchanged since the time of Moses,

The majority of Wikipedia readers have little to no knowledge about this subject. Your averge person really believes that the Torah is, more or less, a unitary document, and many are willing to accept that it was probably written by Moses himself, plus or minus textual errors tha have accumulated over the milennai. In fact, even many agnostics believe this. For many people, the debate is about whether or not God literally inspired prophets to write the Bible, or whether God exists at all.

Right now this article focuses on the technical details, but lacks the general reasoning for it's very existence. RK (talk) 16:54, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

I'm concerned about this too. Look how much information was deleted without any discussion at all: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Documentary_hypothesis&action=historysubmit&diff=406464971&oldid=406130103. I think we should revert these changes (as numerous as they are, many are just deletions and re-wordings), and not do it again until things are discussed. Yay or nay? GManNickG (talk) 22:34, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

What does the phrase "Documentary Hypothesis" mean?

I'd like to reiterate this point. Many people here seem to believe that the term "documentary hypothesis" refers to Wellhausen's 4-document hypothesis. But this is incorrect. Rather, Wellhausen's hypothesis is merely the first of a number of modern ideas about the textual origin of the Torah.

Outside of fundamentalist Christian and jewish communities, mainsteram academics (and non-fundamentalist Jews and Christians) use the phrase "documentary hypothesis" to describe any hypothesis that sees the Torah's origins in independent documents, no matter how many they may be. Also note that many, if not most, modern day views are loosely related to Wellhausen's basic concept of J, E, P and D. In other words, although his specific ideas are denied today, his general outline is still considered to be a good model by many scholars today. RK (talk) 20:35, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

Wellhausen wasn't the first to propose a documentary hypothesis, and I believe the article makes this clear. He merely put forward the most exhaustive, conclusive case for documents over the other two competing hypotheses - the supplementary hypothesis and the fragmentary hypothesis. Note that Wellhausen put forward "a" hypothesis, not "the" hypothesis - his version had 4 sources, but Astruc's had only 2 sources. In the 20th century the E source has been so severely criticised that modern versions of the hypothesis frequently propose only 3 sources. Nor are modern theories using the symbolic language of JEPD (more often JPD without E) necessarily documentary in nature - many regard D as a document, but J and P as editorial work over several centuries. (Unless they're Tommy Thompson). PiCo (talk) 10:21, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

I am not sure of why you wrote this. Maybe I was unclear. Just to be clear, these are points on which we agree. RK (talk) 13:42, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

Merger proposal

I've suggested that Torah redactor be merged into this article. It has been unsourced or poorly sourced for nearly a year and discusses mainly the same content in some more detail. 134.29.231.11 (talk) 18:31, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

merge performed as there was no discussion.173.141.251.43 (talk) 10:15, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

I've now suggested that JE be merged into this article. JE is quite short and discusses the documentary hypothesis in more detail. That detail should be here, I think. 134.29.231.11 (talk) 20:26, 15 March 2011 (UTC)