Talk:Hikikomori

"[...] pornographic manga (which often called "hentai manga" in Western countries). [...]" I'm a little confused about why someone would infer that it's NOT referred to as h-manga in Japan and any other country, for that matter. That's its /name/, not just a western interpretation; am I wrong? --131.7.251.200 30 June 2005 16:33 (UTC)

You are correct, i changed the text. I linked it to Hentai, because H Manga is just a stub. Thanks for the tip -- Chris 73 Talk June 30, 2005 19:40 (UTC)

I thought "Hentai" was just not a word Japanese people would use to refer to pornographic material... 84.137.18.70 21:29, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

Adding A Cultural References section to the end of the entry

Someone mentioned this idea for the freeter entry and I thought that it might bear consideration for the hikikomori entry.

A 'Cultural References' section at the end of the entry could also provide a way for people to see how Japanese culture perceives this phenomenon.

There have been a few movies such as 'Tokyo Plastic', as well as novels with hikikomori-type characters featured in the plotline. There is also no doubt a fair number of manga in Japan with hikikomori in the stories. Compiling a few of the more prominent instances of such cultural references to hikikomori would be quite informative. --Mdziesinski 18:41, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

Problems with Stevertigo's edits

I would like to see where the existing body of research on hikikomori states:

The pressure comes from a number of different sources, and though its ill effects are well known, the issue is generally regarded as a tradeoff between the greater material benefits to the society, versus the humanization of the individual.

• This is great a philosophy argument, but most of the published research on hikikomori points to the previous edit, which is more accurate:

The pressure comes from a number of different sources, but largely the focus of concern centers around the issue of transformation from youth to adult, along with its related core issues of independence and self-reliance.

• Maybe issues of the dehumanizing effect of Globalism should be kept in that particular entry.

There are three primary factors causing hikikomori:

1) middle class affluence in a postindustrial society allows parents to support a adult child indefinitely in the home. In lower income families there are no hikikomori because that youth is forced to work if he cannot finish school, for this reason isolation in the room stops at an early stage.

2) the inability of parents to recognize and act on the youth's slide into isolation (soft parenting) or even a codependent collusion between mother and son (known as amae in Japanese.

3) the flat economy and job market which makes the years of competitive schooling pointless. While their fathers still enjoy life employment at Multi-Nationals such as Mitsubishi, young employees in Japan enjoy no such job guarantees in today's job market (See Freeters and NEET for more on this). Young people are savvy enough to see the system in place for their grandfathers and fathers no longer works.

Also problems with this edit:

== Industrialized education ===

The Japan education system is notorious worldwide for its strict nature, high expectations, high emphasis on competition, and strict pass-or-fail ideology. As the educational system is viewed as an important part of the society's overall productivity and success, students often face significant pressure from parents and the society in general to conform to the its dictates and doctrines. These doctrines, while part of modern Japanese society, are often extreme —they may be rejected by youth.

Industrialized education

• This whole passage is sensational and notorious is also a bit over the top as a descriptor; if you do research on Japanese education in 2005 or have lived in Japan as long as I have, you would discover that the 'pressure-cooker' schools reported to exist in Japan according to the modified entry have been significantly relaxed to 5 day weeks with academic curricula comparable to Western education since 1996, even dropping two subjects from the daily schedule. If there is ANY educational pressure for youth in Japan today, again the onus falls upon the parents who send kids to private cram schools to 'make up' for the newly lax curricula in the public schools.

In extreme cases, the pressure starts already before pre-school, where even toddlers must compete through an entrance exam for the privilege of attending the the best pre-schools.

• Yes, this exists, but mostly in Tokyo, and is, as the editor states, an 'extreme case'; it doesn't explain why hikikomori are cropping up all across the nation.

• The educational model added to the hikikomori entry by Stevertigo's is stuff published in the 1990s when the threat of 'Japan Inc.' existed, not the rapidly changing system in effect today.

• The whole addition of the 'notorious Japanese education system' in the new edits are problematic, oversimplify the hikikomori issue and reinforce stereotypes about the Japanese. It seriously needs to be toned down.

I'm brining this up in talk as I feel a Wiki moderator needs to look at this.

If I change it without comment, it might seem I'm going after Stevertigo, but the problem here is the sensational flavor the education system additions and theory he presents.

The rest of the his additions are welcome, add to the richness of the entry, and do indeed fit with the existing body of hikikomori entry as it stood before his additions. I applaud him for that input. --Mdziesinski 11:38, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

Nevada-tan?

Nevada-Tan's article is listed under 'See Also', but was Nevada-tan really a hikikomori? She was noted as being quite obsessed with the Internet but I cannot find any evidence of her being reclusive. Is this link really appropriate?

• I agree, and thought the link was not appropriate as hikikomori are not really violent like Nevada-Tan and the linkage only serves to reinforce the idea that hikikomori are 'scary and violent teens who might come out of their rooms at any minute to attack you'. However, upon reading the Nevada-Tan entry, and how the Japanese public though the girl displayed some of the same behavior patterns as hikikomori (though this is debatable), I can see the relevance as a link as it is related to the hikikomori topic, if only in a peripheral way.

203.198.242.116 engaging in Vandalism in progress or trolling

Following Wiki's procedures, I am initiating the first stage in what I believe to be Vandalism in progress or trolling by 203.198.242.116.

It has exceeded the Three-revert rule and frankly I'm getting tired of seeing what appears to be viral marketing on this hikikomori entry.

If the user at 203.198.242.116 wants to add more depth to Homokaasu entry, then by all means do so at that entry. It appears that there is an attempt to add mind control links to various topics throughout Wiki as a form of virtual tagging or graffiti.

If the additions of irrelevant material about 'mind control' experiments continue, I will put in a Requests for mediation or possibly IP blocking.

203.198.242.116, please stop. Wiki is a valuable resource to many people, not a BBS.

• FYI, the Three-revert rule is no more then 3 reversions in a 24hr period; so there has been no violation of 3RR as the reversions occured over 3 days. This is blattant calumny.

Adding a link toward Homokaasu is only simple logic, a significant improvement to these systematically biased entries. If you want to deny this evidence in order to implement your personal agenda, serious readers aren't illiterate enough and will decide by themselves. They expect and rightfully deserve better from this encyclopedia. --203.198.242.116 11:38, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

• • I concede that the three revert rule was not violated, however, you (203.198.242.116) have repeatedly added in material on the Frey effect and homokassu that has no direct bearing on hikikomori, despite several editors reverting out your additions, you have repeatedly reinserted them. These are bad faith edits bordering on vandalism. I looked at the controversy on the Frey Effect entry and that is not something desired on this entry. I will ask the moderators of Wiki to lock this entry if needed. BTW, I have no personal 'agenda', I am a social scientist who has done field research on the topic in ACTUAL hikikomori rehab centers, who has been very careful to only include material in this entry from already-published academic and public sources on the hikikomori issue. Your edits on 'mind control' have not a whit to do with these poor youth who are trying to sort out their lives and find a way out of their predicament. What you are doing to the hikikomori entry trivializes and cheapens their plight and prevents serious discussion about the hikikomori topic. --Mdziesinski 9:19, 01 Semptember 2005 (UTC)

• • Also, 203.198.242.116, I would appreciate it, if in the future, you would not steal my discussion posts in other entries and claim them as your own material! After vandalizing http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hikikomori&action=history I asked you to stop and you have lifted my entire request in this hikikomori discussion (with minor link modification) and posted it as if your own here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Frey_effect Looks familiar doesn't it? --Mdziesinski 9:19, 01 Semptember 2005 (UTC)

• • • Agreed, 203.198.242.116 has been trolling and inserting unneeded links about mind control to a few different Wikipedia pages. An IP ban is definitely in order if this behavior persists. Colin McMillen 07:27, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

• • While my modest goal here is to educate the younger readers, it seems that you are now aware that your desperate attempt to scramble and save what is left of the CIA smoke screen that prevailed in the media will no longer be adequate to provide a cover-up for the said CIA psychotronic warfare. Trying to silence me in this sole encyclopedia with systematic gang style stalking, fabricated grotesque defamation and barrage of vandalism will lead you nowhere.

Bhishma: Is it true that you have mastered all the possible forms of war?

Drona: As well as you, Bhishma.

— The Mahabharata

--203.198.242.116 11:32, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

• • • Are you for real??? This CIA nonsense has nothing to do with a social problem in Japan. Nothing. Take this paranioa talk to the frey entry or tinfoil hats. Or better yet, write a constructive Wiki entry on what you feel you are an expert of and leave non-related Wiki entries alone. I'm not even going to dignify anymore responses on what is clearly an Internet_troll.--Mdziesinski 12:06, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

Depression?

This sounds like depression to me The symptoms are there: Shutting down yourself, that is, staying away from society, not taking baths, social awkwardness, etc. Why isn't a single mention of a possible depression? -- 9:38, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

Because the phenomenon is more complex than just satisfying the symptoms for depression. True, some hikikomori may exhibit the behavior patterns of depressives, but others who are also classified by Japanese society as hikikomori, do not. The key thing to consider here is that the social label of hikikomori in Japanese Society is an umbrella term for any individual who shut himself off from society at large; the common discourse in Japan isn't concerned about the causes that Western doctors might look for, but rather the final resultant behavior: acute social withdrawal. Some hikikomori may be suffering from depression, others acute shyness, others laziness, yet others may be mentally handicapped. In Japanese society, all of these patterns of behavior, if they lead to hikikomori reclusiveness, are termed 'hikikomori'. Medicalizing hikikomori by labeling them all with the Western medical definition of 'depression' only muddies the waters. Also, I did field research with hikikomori and I would not classify most hikikomori I observed as purely depressive, but rather shy and socially stagnant individuals who normalized into functional adults with very few relapses once socialized. Clinical depression is much more likely to reoccur. --Mdziesinski 08:46, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

Hi Mdziesinski, thanks for the very useful info, very insightful (hope that's the correct word).

Oh, and I saw that another user added a link to Depression :)

(the smilie looks eerie next to the word depression)

anyway, thanks a lot -- 3:36, 20 September 2005

You're welcome. BTW, have you ever considered getting a login at Wikipedia? It's free, and helps in communicating, since you get your own talk page -- Chris 73 Talk 04:58, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

thanks, I already have one in spanish, but will take your advice and open one in english. It's just that I like the recent "open edit for all" feature, to wander around, see something that needs fixing and then correct it :P cya. -- 15:55, 21 September 2005

Not just a Japanese Problem

I think the Western World fails to recoginize that hikokimori is not just a problem that invovles only Asian cultures. The fact that the same strife conditions exist in in the West should be studied further as it may determine the diffence between depression and hikokimori.

However, the APA seems to list diagnosises like hikokimori as some form of psychosexual disorder because of regressed sexual fantasies or bottled frustrations that could lead to violent behavior. If that is the case, then according to the APA just about ever social pariah (sp) suffers from hikikomori. This logically can not be true.

Further investigation into this article would be wise especially since events such as Columbine and the Sakakibara murders can not be used as examples of hikokimori and would suggest that the average hikokimori sufferer is potentially violent and a danger to the general public.

Institutionalization is not the propoer treatment for hikokimori. If anything, putting someone who suffers from hikokimori into a mental hospital would do more harm than good psychologically since hikokimori is more off a stress disorder brought on by high levels of stress. If anything, some time away from the city but with other people, possibly other hikokimori sufferers, would seem like a better treatment.

Currently, Western medicine does not recognize hikokimori, but as a form of depression brought on by high levels of stress and anxiety. Western medicine seems to think that pills and mental institutionalization (ranging from three days of outpatient observation to instititutional confinement) are the only solution to this problem. If you just had a severe nervious breakdown (common symptom of hikokimori) the last thing anyone wants to do is spend three days with violently or screaming mental patients with diagnosises far worse than hikikomori.

If a sufferer has been taking prescribed amphetamines (i.e. Ritalin) or anti-depressants (i.e. Prozac), psychologists should consider if the patient may be suffering from a form of hikokimori rather than explicity diagnosing the patient with Bipolar disorder, mania, or some other psychosis. --Bushido Hacks 17:07, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

Section "Worldwide"

I agree with Bushido Hacks, in that I highly doubt that hikikomori itself is mainly a Japanese problem. IMO there mainly seems to be a lack of an fitting equivalent term in the West. Twixter f.ex. is pretty different to the situation a hikikomori lives in, as they have contact with other people, etc.

My closest guess would be a social phobia, which at times leads to the same extreme behaviour as hikikomori does. And albeit it's a known disorder, I have the feeling it's not well publicized, usually only appearing in mass media when connected to acts of violence. After all, it seems to be a common western perception that (especially adolescents) have to be very outgoing, with tons of friends (or, as a teacher of mine put it "Shyness is extinct these days"...)

I don't think it's correct to say "While total social withdrawal seems to be mainly a Japanese phenomenon, [...]", implying that it would be very unusual to find such an individual in Western society, as it simply isn't. As a matter of fact, it doesn't require that much searching to find forums on the internet that are specifically for persons who suffer from extreme shyness and social isolation, respectively withdrawal and won't leave the house. Some of these forums have more than 1,000 members.

While certain aspects easily might be particular to Japanese society, the "Worldwide" section should have a (literally) more global and differentiated approach. In the least, I'd suggest to get rid of above sentence. -- Velour 05:50, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

Article Errors

This article is riddled with errors:

1. It says "lifetime employment" no longer applies to new, incoming workers in Japan. Actually, "lifetime employment" is a misleading term that was originally coined by an American writer in Japan in the 1950s. The Japanese employment system is distinctly different from the Western "hire-and-fire" labor system and very much still in force in Japan, particularly at the large corporations. Far from being a Japanese cultural "tradition," as it is often portrayed in the U.S. media, the Japanese employment system is actually a relatively new system that only dates back to the 1950s. Not only is the system still alive and well, but it has actually been copied by other East Asian nations, from Taiwan to South Korea.

2. The article's author refers to "rote memorization" as still in common use in Japan's schools. Not true: rote memorization was in fact phased out 10 to 15 years ago as a common teaching tool. The system has recently gained some favorable press in Japan as some educators have considered using it again (as previous school reforms that phased out rote learning are now regarded as failures).

3. The article refers to Japan's supposed economic weakness and a "shaky job market." In fact, Japan's economy is actually doing quite well and continues to improve. And as far as the job market goes, Japan has a very low jobless rate (4.2 percent; lower than the U.S., in fact).

In my opinion, your points have some flaws. (1) Large corporations have lifetime employment, smaller ones less and less so. A newly employed worker cannot expect to have a lifetime job. (2) Memorization is still a main part of school (e.g. Kanji), and University entrance exams check more knowledge than understanding. In general, the Japanese Education system is very demanding and stressful, especially the entrance exams of Universities. (3) The economy is currently on an upturn, if this is sustainable has to be seen, although I am optimistic on this point. The Jobless rate given by the government is a fudged number, if you work only 1 hour a month then you're employed. Many young people do part time or low paying jobs (e.g. Convienient store staff) with no career options whatsoever.

Of course it is possible to discuss details, but the article is definitely not riddled with errors. -- Chris 73 | Talk 15:54, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

Needs Revision

The article needs major revision; it's whole approach to writing the article is not really neutral, or too subjective. Somehow, I just feel it doesn't follow the Wikipedia standard policies. It also reads more like a blog or an amateur essay than an encyclopedic article. It is kind of closed minded and holds a non-neutral view on what exactly defines a "Hikikomori" -- it provides examples, but the wording is off - it should state that "often times, people who are considered to be Hikikomoris are this way..." etc., instead of, "Hikikomoris usually are this way..." It is almost as if the article is treating this personallity type as a different breed or species! There are no set "guidelines" to being a Hiki, they don't always sleep in the morning, etc.

Actually, I may be wrong on what I wrote above -- maybe the term DOES require a certain set of pacuiliarities (sp?) for a person to be considered on. Although I doubt it.