Talk:Racism in Latvia

Merge

I would suggest merging any new content into Human rights in Latvia, which some of this already duplicates. PЄTЄRS J VЄСRUМВА ►TALK 02:53, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

This would make HRiL significantly longer. Besides, not all expressions and sources of racism are relevant in a human rights article.Fuseau (talk) 21:06, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

See below, there are many common themes with regard to specific minorities. Individuals who discriminate against particular ethnic groups or races are putting racist attitudes into practice. I'm not convinced the result will be as long as you think. PЄTЄRS J V ►TALK 03:07, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

I agree that this should be merged into Human rights in Latvia as this article appears to be somewhat of a WP:POVFORK of that article. I cannot imagine what expression of racism would not be relevant to human rights. --Nug (talk) 19:17, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

Unfounded claims

There are no citations to back up the claims that "racism is being expressed in various ways, including racist discource by politicians and in the media, as well as racially motivated attacks." If no references are provided, there's not a single reason to keep it in the article. Kursis (talk) 04:06, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

References are provided after the next phrase, referring to both.Fuseau (talk) 21:06, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

True, although the tone in the very first sentence of the article suggests that racism amongst politicians and also racially motivated violence is a continuous, common occurence ("is being expressed"). The research paper only confirms that some cases of racism have been monitored in the given time frame. There is no evidence that this is a continuous/common occurrence. Kursis (talk)

"is being expressed" speaks about ways of racist actions, not about whether it is a continuous, common occurence.Fuseau (talk) 18:30, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

"Is being expressed" does in fact indicate continuously, continuing even as we speak, an endless fountain of racism. PЄTЄRS J V ►TALK 23:05, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

1. It's just your perception. 2. Sadly you don't suggest another expression, which could be better; it's not helpful (I'm always co-operativce and ready to acknowledge that there can be different ways to express information and sometimes mine aren't the best). 3. Many months ago, "is being expressed" was already paraphrased in the lead section, which now reads "Expression of racism in Latvia include". Fuseau (talk) 12:01, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

"Instances of..." might be better English, if you're fine with that. Going back to my original suggestion that this be merged with the related human rights article, you'll note that a Google books search of "racism in..." returns:

• "...the United States" = 503,000 matches
• "...France" = 18,000
• "...Germany" = 11,100
• "...Italy" = 3,430
• "...Latvia" = 1

Merging the two would unify discussion of attitudes about ethnic minorities—I'm not suggesting removing content under the guise of "merging" and "remove POV fork" material, as some are wont to do to wage content wars. On the contrary, thanks for your ongoing attention to the topic. Don't confuse me with über-nationalists who participate on WP only to scrub their nation and leaders clean of all warts. PЄTЄRS J V ►TALK 02:55, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

Given the google results shown above, WP:ASTONISH would dictate a merger. --Nug (talk) 19:19, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

I'm fine with "instances". However, merging this article into Human rights in Latvia would demand to cut the content - the article would become too long, and not everything relevant to racism is relevant to human rights. Concerning numerical googling results - it's not a kind of WP:RS, and one should take into account language bias (if not to search sources in Latvian, German or Russian, it will be difficult to find information on very many notable topics on LatviaLA). There are, on the contrary, reliable soruces showing attention to racism in Latvia, and they are referred to in the article.Fuseau (talk) 21:32, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

This article is 17KB, the Human rights in Latvia article is 29KB, for a total of 46KB, well under the limit of 100KB, so no content would need to be cut. What precisely is relevant to racism but not relevant to human rights? --Nug (talk) 04:10, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

The limit where "Length alone does not justify division" per WP:Splitting is 40 Kb. Racist discourse doesn't always constitute human rights violations; evaluation of politican parties and politicians as racist is also far from human rights niveau.Fuseau (talk) 10:20, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

Indeed, thanks for confirming that length is not at issue here. Racial discrimination is defined by the International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination as:

"...any distinction, exclusion, restriction or preference based on race, colour, descent, or national or ethnic origin which has the purpose or effect of nullifying or impairing the recognition, enjoyment or exercise, on an equal footing, of human rights and fundamental freedoms in the political, economic, social, cultural or any other field of public life"

Given that the legal framework, reporting documents, evaluation of the scale and complaints about discrimination is based upon this definition, i.e. the bulk of the article, I think there is a strong case for a merger. --Nug (talk) 02:10, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

Racial discrimination truly is a matter of human rights. But the topic of this article, as one can see in the title, is not only racial discrimination, but racism as a whole. And in the bottom of the article, one can equally see that there are lots of Wikipedia articles on racism in certain countries, separate from articles on human rigts in those countries. Fuseau (talk) 09:21, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

WP:OTHERSTUFF exists isn't a valid argument. If the basis of not merging this article is that racism in Latvia is a phenonemon distinct from Human rights in Latvia, then I think we should examine if there are sufficient sources to establish WP:NOTABILITY as a distinct and separate topic rather than in context of human rights. A search of books published on the topic reveals the following results:

Racism in the United States 530,000 books

Racism in Germany 11,600 books

Racism is Russia 1,250 books

Racism in Latvia 1 book

So on the basis of WP:NOTABILITY, there is no apparent basis for this article to exist, and thus it should be merged into Human rights in Latvia. --Nug (talk) 00:09, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

That unconvincing argument, ignoring existence of WP:RS showing notability and referred to in the article, as well as ignoring existence of non-English sources at all, was already rebutted in this very discussion in my post from 21:32, 11 December 2011. Fuseau (talk) 12:07, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

Ofcourse WP:RS exists, however it appears that these sources have been used for WP:OR to synthesis something that doesn't address the topic of "Racism in Latvia" directly. I think this article confuses discrimination with racism. Discrimination on the basis of age is ageism, discrimination on the basis of sex is sexism, discrimination on the basis of language is linguicism and discrimination on the basis of race is racism. Therefore if this article really is about racism in Latvia, then it needs to discuss both Latvian and Russian racist extremist groups within Latvia, including Russian skinheads who are most notably active in various organisations such as the Latvian branches of Russian National Unity(RNE) and the National Bolshevik Party, who target visible minorities such as Africans, Asians, Roma and Jews. --Nug (talk) 12:21, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

The article doesn't confuse discrimination with racism. Discrimination on the basis of age and sex is truly not connected with racism - and it is not covered by this article, accrodingly. Discrimination on the basis of language, however, is included, because the anti-racist ECRI, a reliable source, has considered it to be relevant to its anti-racist mandate. Of course, information on both Latvian and Russian racist groups in Latvia, confirmed with reliable sources, should be added (NB One of the most known NBP leaders in Latvia, Beness Aijo, is of African origin himself - I'm not sure if they target Africans and other visible minorities). Fuseau (talk) 13:40, 15 December 2011 (UTC)