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Hate to break it to you, but that's how Wikipedia is run. If an article doesn't adhere to guidelines, it's redirected or deleted. We've given you a chance to save the ones worth saving. Don't like it, the door's wide open, you can exit anytime. ''[[User: Rusted AutoParts|<font face="Rockwell" size="3" style="color:#000000;color:red"><i>Rusted AutoParts</i></font>]]'' ([[User talk:Rusted AutoParts|talk]]) 1:17 27 October 2011 (UTC)
Hate to break it to you, but that's how Wikipedia is run. If an article doesn't adhere to guidelines, it's redirected or deleted. We've given you a chance to save the ones worth saving. Don't like it, the door's wide open, you can exit anytime. ''[[User: Rusted AutoParts|<font face="Rockwell" size="3" style="color:#000000;color:red"><i>Rusted AutoParts</i></font>]]'' ([[User talk:Rusted AutoParts|talk]]) 1:17 27 October 2011 (UTC)


== one more thing before I leave ==

This may be petty of me to make one parting shot as I retire from Wikipedia for good, but for the record, you are an asshole. A serious, no doubt about it, 100% asshole. So much of an asshole that you probably take great pride in your assholivity. I have never called anyone an asshole in my life, but hoo boy did I choose the right one. For the sake of the world around you, I hope that one day you will realize what a waste of everyone's time, including your own, your assholeness is. Until then, all I can say is -- bye, asshole! [[User:Minaker|Minaker]] ([[User talk:Minaker|talk]]) 06:04, 15 December 2011 (UTC)
:I'm way ahead of you, douchebag. I was an asshole before the word was invented. But good luck on your travels, wherever you may go. May you find it paved with colorful characters you misunderstand for assholes.

:And next time you claim to have read the sources in an article, prove it and engage on the talkpage. It's what all the best assholes do. --[[User:Moni3|Moni3]] ([[User talk:Moni3#top|talk]]) 12:42, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

::Seems like you've made a new Wiki-friend. [[User:Malleus Fatuorum|Malleus]] [[User_talk:Malleus_Fatuorum|Fatuorum]] 00:14, 17 December 2011 (UTC)

:::Nothing here but cuddles and hugs. Here's a flower. Join our love parade. --[[User:Moni3|Moni3]] ([[User talk:Moni3#top|talk]]) 00:39, 17 December 2011 (UTC)

::::Is it an edible flower? [[User:Malleus Fatuorum|Malleus]] [[User_talk:Malleus_Fatuorum|Fatuorum]] 01:15, 17 December 2011 (UTC)

== Something of interest about the Ten Thousand Islands ==

Have you seen {{cite web|last=Schwadron|first=Margo|title=Landscapes of Maritime Complexity: Prehistoric Shell Works sites of the Ten Thousand Island, Florida|url=https://lra.le.ac.uk/handle/2381/8272|publisher=University of Leicester|accessdate=8 December 2011|year=2010}}? I've used it as a source in [[:List of shell ring sites]]. -- [[User talk:Donald Albury|Donald Albury]] 13:08, 15 December 2011 (UTC)
:Leicester? What kind of wetlands study is going on there? So no, I haven't seen this. University of Leicester is not one of the first places I tend to look for info about the Everglades. I'll readjust that attitude in the future.

:But thanks for bringing it to my attention. Let me see what it might say of interest to the Everglades. I also have to update a couple articles about the progress of the Kissimmee River restoration, which was slated to be all done and stuff by 2011. Has the Army Corps of Engineers fulfilled its promise? Inquiring minds want to know. --[[User:Moni3|Moni3]] ([[User talk:Moni3#top|talk]]) 22:11, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

::It's amazing what will pop out of Google. It's a dissertation, and she did her field work in TTI (as she likes to abbreviate it). So, it's about the Ten Thousand Islands, not the Everglades.

::As for the Corps, I haven't driven through the Kissimmee Valley in more than ten years, and don't remember seeing any news about it in recent years. -- [[User talk:Donald Albury|Donald Albury]] 23:50, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

== [[Tara Maclay]] ==

Regarding [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Tara_Maclay&diff=466095586&oldid=466094238 this edit]:

I think the second bit is at least arguable; here at least something is being insinuated about the effect that Tara's death had on Willow (although I think it goes into far more detail than necessary). The first bit just looks irrelevant to me; the fact that what happens to Tara prompts Willow to go after Glory is relevant to this article, but details about how powerful Willow is do not seem relevant. <b class="IPA">[[Special:Contributions/Rjanag|r<font color="#8B0000">ʨ</font>anaɢ]]</b>&nbsp;([[User talk:Rjanag|talk]]) 07:07, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

:I wouldn't have put it in the article if sources had not stated it was important for Tara's character. As Willow becomes stronger, she becomes less ethical. Tara takes over in that area, becoming the moral center of the group. Following Tara's death, Willow's rampage is the exact reason why the writers chose to kill Tara: to push Willow right over the edge, to force her to deal with her tendency to avoid pain by trying quick fixes. By going off the deep end, Willow illustrates how quickly and easily she abandons Tara's wishes for her to use magic for less selfish purposes.

:There may be better ways to incorporate this information to make these points, but removing it is not the way to go, and it's certainly not irrelevant. I'd appreciate your input as to how to explain these issues better on the talk page if you feel strongly enough to participate. --[[User:Moni3|Moni3]] ([[User talk:Moni3#top|talk]]) 12:49, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

::I'm not sure I agree with your reasoning. As for the first sentence I removed, this is simply not ''about'' Tara; it just says how strong Willow is, and no connection is made (at least, not in the article) between that factoid and Tara. Maybe the books you have make that connection, but it certainly is not clear to me in the article; like I said above, saying how strong Willow is doesn't tell the reader about Tara, who is the subject of the article.
::As for the second part, the details about Willow's rampage, again I don't see how this is ''about'' Tara (although, again, it may be easier to make a case for this than the other one). Everything you said (how quickly and easily Willow abandons Tara's wishes) is stuff about Willow, not about Tara. If there is some way that this helps the reader learn something about ''Tara'', then it needs to be made much clearer to the reader (who probably doesn't have access to all the materials you have).
::Best, <b class="IPA">[[Special:Contributions/Rjanag|r<font color="#8B0000">ʨ</font>anaɢ]]</b>&nbsp;([[User talk:Rjanag|talk]]) 17:11, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

:::Your marked confusion indicates more to me that I didn't do a hot job explaining Tara's importance to Willow's storyline and it should be reworded. It may seem irrelevant because I didn't connect it well enough. But then, I've also read more about Tara since I wrote the article and I haven't been able to incorporate everything I've read recently. Sources do state that Tara's interactions with Willow and Buffy indicate more about Willow and Buffy than anything does really about Tara. As a mostly static supporting character, she functions to highlight the actions of the main characters: Buffy, Willow, Giles, and Xander. Her character just has more to do with Willow and Buffy than the other two. Sources certainly state that as Willow becomes stronger, she becomes less ethical. Tara comes forward to take that role while also expressing her disappointment in Willow's direction. As each article must stand alone, it begs an example of how Willow becomes stronger--in what way? Stronger than whom or from what previously? That she becomes stronger than Buffy is important to state. Tara sees this and cautions her more than once. Tara certainly did not wish for Willow to go on a murderous rampage. Willow's rampage signifies how deep Willow's psychic pain is as a reaction to Tara's death while also illustrating what tenuous grasp Willow had on the morality of magic in the series--a morality that Tara championed.

:::So, as I've said, sources make these points. If you have suggestions as to how to state them more clearly, suggest away. --[[User:Moni3|Moni3]] ([[User talk:Moni3#top|talk]]) 21:09, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

===Other issue===
I hope this is the right to discuss this. I want to use the comments from the official posting board, and only a fraction have appeared in print. However various books and articles site these documents.
I would like to bring the information in because the poor judgement came off as taunting. I wonder if you could assist me in this? Thanks! <small><span class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Drlloyd11|Drlloyd11]] ([[User talk:Drlloyd11|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Drlloyd11|contribs]]) 22:33, 16 December 2011 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
:The best place to discuss this is the [[Talk:Tara_Maclay|talk page for the article]]. Specifically, I started a discussion on your edits on that talk [[Talk:Tara_Maclay#Primary_sources|page here]]. --[[User:Moni3|Moni3]] ([[User talk:Moni3#top|talk]]) 22:52, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

== Query ==

Hi Moni. My name is Jivesh. I am simply impressed by the number of FAs you have worked on. You must really love Wikipedia, don't you? Moni, I wanted to know if you comment on peer reviews? [[User:Jivesh boodhun|Jivesh<font color="green">1205</font>]] ([[User talk:Jivesh boodhun|Talk]]) 17:13, 20 December 2011 (UTC)
:Well that certainly is a new perspective. I come across so many crazy people on Wikipedia that assume I'm just as crazy as they are. I would have to be to continue doing this.

:At any rate, I have to disappoint you here. I don't have the energy and time necessary to review articles for FA and such. But I commend you for trying. Seriously. Good for you for trying to improve an article or two around here. I hope you find it enjoyable and you don't see everyone you come across as crazy for another few years. --[[User:Moni3|Moni3]] ([[User talk:Moni3#top|talk]]) 21:54, 20 December 2011 (UTC)
::Okay. [[User:Jivesh boodhun|Jivesh<font color="green">1205</font>]] ([[User talk:Jivesh boodhun|Talk]]) 17:08, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

== My Sincere Wishes For This Festive Season ==

{| style="border: 1px purple; background-color: Lime;"
|rowspan="2" valign="middle" | {{#ifeq:{{{2}}}|alt|[[File:Beyonce In Tour.jpg|right|100px]]|[[File:Arbol Navidad 03.gif|100px]]}}
|rowspan="2" |
|style="font-size: x-large; padding: 0; vertical-align: middle; height: 1.1em;" | <span style="background: DodgerBlue;">★*★*★*★*★*★*★*★*</span><span style="background: OrangeRed;"> Merry Christmas And Happy New Year 2012</span> <span style="background: DodgerBlue;">*★*★*★*★*★*★*★*★'''</span>
|-
|style="vertical-align: middle; border-top: 1px solid gray;" | I Wish You And Your Family A Merry Christmas And A Happy New Year 2012. May The New Year Bring Much Happiness, Prosperity, Peace, And Success In Your Life. I Am Very Happy To be Part of Wikipedia And To Have Great Friends. Cheers.

- From A Big Fan of [[File:Beyoncé logotipo.PNG|100px]] ----> [[User:Jivesh boodhun|Jivesh<font color="green">1205</font>]] ([[User talk:Jivesh boodhun|Talk]]) 17:08, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
|}

== Holiday wishes... ==

{| style="border:2px ; background-color: #FF0800;"
|rowspan="2" valign="middle" | [[File:Saint-Sulpice-de-Favières vitrail1 824.JPG |300px]]
|rowspan="2" |
|style="font-size: x-large; padding: 2; vertical-align: middle; height: 1.1em;" | '''Happy Holidays'''
|-
|style="vertical-align: middle; border-top: 1px solid gray;" | Wishing you and yours a Happy Holiday Season, from the horse and bishop person. May the year ahead be productive and troll-free. [[User:Ealdgyth|Ealdgyth]] - [[User talk:Ealdgyth|Talk]] 17:30, 21 December 2011 (UTC)[[User:Ealdgyth|Ealdgyth]] - [[User talk:Ealdgyth|Talk]] 17:25, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
|}

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== personal attack ==

I have no idea what a dingus is, but it sounds bad. [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AArbitration%2FRequests%2FCase&action=historysubmit&diff=467284682&oldid=467284572] Please block yourself for personal attacks . [[User_talk:Nobody Ent|Nobody Ent<small> (Gerardw)</small>]] 03:01, 23 December 2011 (UTC)
:Dingus: doofus, asshat, dumbass, fuckwad, touchhole, douchelord, fartface, shit-for-brains, dummo, cannibalistic humanoid underground dweller, or Florida State University alumni. All interchangeable. --[[User:Moni3|Moni3]] ([[User talk:Moni3#top|talk]]) 03:07, 23 December 2011 (UTC)
::Er…not quite, though it's often colloquially (mis)used that way. "Dingus" actually means A gadget, contraption, thingamabob, whatchamacallit, widget, etc. This per the Oxford English Dictionary, which is a fairly [[WP:RS|reliable]] source. It derives from Dutch and/or German ''ding'', i.e., "thing". —<span style="font:bold 11px Arial;display:inline;border:#151B8D 1px solid;background-color:#FFFF00;padding:0 4px 0 4px;">[[User:Scheinwerfermann|Scheinwerfermann]]</span> <sup>[[User_talk:Scheinwerfermann|T]]</sup>&middot;<sub>[[Special:Contributions/Scheinwerfermann|C]]</sub><small>04:13, 23 December 2011 (UTC)</small>
:::This dictionary of yours is not a resource in a language I want to speak. --[[User:Moni3|Moni3]] ([[User talk:Moni3#top|talk]]) 04:16, 23 December 2011 (UTC)
::::Yakka foog mub wurkle [[Automotive lighting|chumble spuzz]] greedle [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eCQNmFoz_dI greedle chuzzumph] grak fraw Pauquee fweeza yudle grop miffle. Ti Ranfla Aflanaff, "Yerg todel! Gucfa poi! Elfeem tonono! Esdera floy? Cho!" Brzeek, [[User:Scheinwerfermann/Cetacean_needed|creckle]], crazkkklezeek nguh frumph, glark murp, waf nini, pofda. Lo powt gort cugglo qoply bugla. [[Carburetor|Afflanaff Jappelap]], bargla [[Selective yellow|furble]].
::::Creegie:
::::H) Skisk fris gno yurf drof. Ki lople, morpner troffle.
::::Q) Efra Japplejap, serd fruyer bertermerter.
::::X) Craganfaranmakla, ise redlo quab ugglefrumph!
::::Warnafreep, Bloy Gravpotom. —<span style="font:bold 11px Arial;display:inline;border:#151B8D 1px solid;background-color:#FFFF00;padding:0 4px 0 4px;">[[User:Scheinwerfermann|Scheinwerfermann]]</span> <sup>[[User_talk:Scheinwerfermann|T]]</sup>&middot;<sub>[[Special:Contributions/Scheinwerfermann|C]]</sub><small>05:58, 23 December 2011 (UTC)</small>
:::::Munee is zee greetest Veekipedia ideetur ifer. I vunt tu be-a her. Merry Chreestmes! [[Swedish Chef|Bork bork bork!]] [[User:Figureskatingfan|Christine]] ([[User talk:Figureskatingfan|talk]]) 06:20, 23 December 2011 (UTC)
::::::Yes, finally, we can all come together and celebrate our collective nonsense. Overcoming our communication differences by acknowledging that none of us knows how to communicate. I have a tear in my eye. --[[User:Moni3|Moni3]] ([[User talk:Moni3#top|talk]]) 13:47, 23 December 2011 (UTC)

==Nice==
What you said on Malleus' request for arbitration is everything I've been struggling with and has sent me away for a while because of [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AArbitration%2FRequests%2FCase&action=historysubmit&diff=467305798&oldid=467304711 this mentality]. A few days I ago I went to the library and dragged home a stack of books with the intent of getting back to article building. I'd unwatched hundreds of pages and user pages after my last unwelcome visit to AN/I which is a huge timesink. Last night I peeked at someone's user page (can't remember who) and stumbled across this entire mess. What you wrote at the arbitration request goes to the heart of the matter - are we building an encyclopedia and will rules be put in place to protect such building, or are most of the people here just to for a game? I think it's a game to many; those who are serious, like myself, are perennially discouraged. Anyway, just wanted you know that your statement says everything I could have said and much better. I hope they listen. I've unwatched a few user pages and am saddened at the fall-out here, but not surprised. Anyway, enjoy you holidays! [[User:Truthkeeper88|Truthkeeper]] ([[User talk:Truthkeeper88|talk]]) 13:28, 23 December 2011 (UTC)

:Yeah, well. I understand your frustration. Sometimes this site is harder to take than other times. Sometimes I take this dumbass catshitstink more personally and sometimes I can make wise one-line sayings summarizing Wikipedia's nature that make me seem like an epic sage.

:I'm surprised by the number of folks involved on that Case page, but not really. What an odd place this is. It devalues the contributions of individuals on its face by not giving credit to major contributors to articles in mainspace (not that I disagree with that), then it displaces that lack of recognition by heaping importance onto individuals at its most ostensibly functional venues at ANI and ArbCom/Case pages. For folks who require external acknowledgment as motivation, there is no better place to shine than ANI and making grand statements at ArbCom. It makes ANI and ArbCom/Case pages the crowded, jostling Wal-Marts (or would that be Wals-Mart?) for people shopping for their purpose here. Getting FAC in a tizzy is amateur night.

:So this is the Case of the month, Malleus is the biggest assclown to grace the presence of the Wiki, or hungry self-esteem hounds are sniffing the air for opportunities to augment what they lack. If we were truly wise, we'd recognize these are all elements of truth existing to some extent at the same time and ArbCom has the ability and the authority to change this. Will they? Probably not. It's the tragic aspect of human nature: our faults have been pointed out to us and the problem is not insurmountable at this time. There is therefore no reason to change, and our time to grieve for what could have been is reserved for our futures.

:Only a musical paragon such as ABBA can encapsulate the fine nuances of the sentiments of what I just wrote and stick it in a hook-filled, holiday-themed pop song. [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Uo0JAUWijM&ob=av2e Enjoy]. --[[User:Moni3|Moni3]] ([[User talk:Moni3#top|talk]]) 14:22, 23 December 2011 (UTC)

::Thanks - ABBA was perfect. Keep your voice here Moni - it's important. You're witty yet wise. We need voices like yours. The message that resonates the most with me is your question about why people do not go to the library to bring home sources and build content. As long as only a few are reading and writing the others will have to find justification for hanging around elsewhere on the site. I'm staring at a stack of five/six books and about 200 pages of journal articles I recently downloaded, yet wondering whether my time is better spent doing something else. Ultimately I always come back because I learn about things and I think knowledge is priceless. [[User:Truthkeeper88|Truthkeeper]] ([[User talk:Truthkeeper88|talk]]) 22:41, 23 December 2011 (UTC)

:::Bravo! Finding reliable sources for Wikipedia articles is a marvelous way to learn new things, and it's fun, too! -- [[User talk:Donald Albury|Donald Albury]] 17:56, 24 December 2011 (UTC)

== Merry Christmas ==

{| style="background-color: #fdffe7; border: 1px solid #fceb92;"
|rowspan="2" style="vertical-align: middle; padding: 5px;" | [[File:Artsy Christmas Tree 2.jpg|100px]]
|style="font-size: x-large; padding: 3px 3px 0 3px; height: 1.5em;" | Season's greetings<br><br> and best wishes for 2012!
|-
|style="vertical-align: middle; padding: 3px;" |Thanks for all you do here, [[User:Ruhrfisch|Ruhrfisch]] '''[[User talk:Ruhrfisch|<sub><font color="green">&gt;&lt;&gt;</font></sub><small>&deg;</small><sup><small>&deg;</small></sup>]]''' 20:46, 24 December 2011 (UTC)
|}

== Happy Xmas ==

{| style="background-color: #fdffe7; border: 1px solid #fceb92;"
|rowspan="2" style="vertical-align: middle; padding: 5px;" | [[File:Ceratopetalum gummiferum-Minchen.jpg|100px]]
|style="font-size: x-large; padding: 3px 3px 0 3px; height: 1.5em;" | '''Merry Christmas'''
|-
|style="vertical-align: middle; padding: 3px;" |From me, a happy [[Ceratopetalum gummiferum|NSW Xmas bush]] Xmas from us all down here in Oz (damn, should have 5x expanded that for this Xmas...is there still time I wonder....) [[User:Casliber|Casliber]] ([[User talk:Casliber|talk]] '''·''' [[Special:Contributions/Casliber|contribs]]) 05:51, 25 December 2011 (UTC)
|}

== Donner Party ==

The reason for putting the date for Dolan's death (and thus the first incidence of cannibalism) was to conform with the rules for inclusion on [[Wikipedia:Selected anniversaries]], which requires that the relevant date ([[Wikipedia:Selected anniversaries/December 26|December 26]]) be actually mentioned in the article and cited to a reliable source. If you can work that in somehow, that would be greatly appreciated. Thanks. <span style="font-family:Verdana; ">'''[[User:Howcheng|<span style="color:#33C;">howcheng</span>]]''' <small>{[[User talk:Howcheng|chat]]}</small></span> 07:24, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

:You want the prose to indicate the death date for one person among 40+ so you can arrange a selected anniversary on Wikipedia? Just trying to clarify. --[[User:Moni3|Moni3]] ([[User talk:Moni3#top|talk]]) 13:21, 29 December 2011 (UTC)
::If you put it that way, it sounds stupid. But spin it another way: I want the date that members of the party first engaged in cannibalism in the article, which I think is a significant enough event to warrant such attention. Is that better? Thanks. <span style="font-family:Verdana; ">'''[[User:Howcheng|<span style="color:#33C;">howcheng</span>]]''' <small>{[[User talk:Howcheng|chat]]}</small></span> 06:11, 30 December 2011 (UTC)
:::Sorry I haven't been able to get to this. Major internet outage here. At any rate, I think there's a way to comply with a selected anniversary, but if you add the death date for Patrick Dolan, it's going to have to be added for every member of the Donner Party that died that winter. At least the way you added it in the edit I overturned. Must it be the first instance of cannibalism? Why not the day they got stuck in the Sierra Nevada, which was the prelude to their own personal hell on earth? That way, it highlights all the members' circumstances instead of one (giving him undue importance)? --[[User:Moni3|Moni3]] ([[User talk:Moni3#top|talk]]) 14:17, 31 December 2011 (UTC)
::::That works for me. I just picked the cannibalism thing because when people think Donner Party, they think cannibalism, but any way of getting them onto OTD is good. There's no hurry, either, since you have almost a whole year to get to it. Thanks! <span style="font-family:Verdana; ">'''[[User:Howcheng|<span style="color:#33C;">howcheng</span>]]''' <small>{[[User talk:Howcheng|chat]]}</small></span> 20:40, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

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== Sisters ==

Responded on article talk page –[[User:Roscelese|Roscelese]] ([[User talk:Roscelese|talk]] &sdot; [[Special:Contributions/Roscelese|contribs]]) 20:39, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

== Your Arbitration evidence is too long ==

Hello, Moni3. Thank you for your recent submission of evidence for the Civility enforcement Arbitration case. As you may be aware, the Arbitration Committee asks that users submitting evidence in cases adhere to limits regarding the length of their submissions. These limits, of {{User:HersfoldArbClerkBot/Length header/Words}} words and {{User:HersfoldArbClerkBot/Length header/Diffs}} diffs maximum, are in place to ensure that the Arbitration Committee receives only the most important information relevant to the case, and is able to determine an appropriate course of action in a reasonable amount of time. The evidence you have submitted currently exceeds at least one of these limits, and is presently at 902 words and 2 diffs. Please try to reduce the length of your submission to fit within these limits; [[Wikipedia:Arbitration/Guide to arbitration|this guide]] may be able to provide some help in doing so. If the length of your evidence is not reduced soon, it may be refactored or removed by a human clerk within a few days. Thank you! If you have any questions or concerns regarding the case, please contact the drafting Arbitrator or case clerk (listed on the case pages); if you have any questions or concerns about this bot, please contact [[User talk:Hersfold|the operator]]. On behalf of the Arbitration Committee, '''''<em style="font-family:Bradley Hand ITC;color:blue">Hers</em><em style="font-family:Bradley Hand ITC;color:gold">fold</em>'''''[[User:HersfoldArbClerkBot|ArbClerk'''BOT''']]<sup>([[User:Hersfold/t|talk]])</sup> 18:04, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

:As I myself am not a clerk any more (I just run the bot), I likely won't be doing that myself, however due to the extreme amount of evidence we've received already I do plan to ask the clerks to enforce length limits fairly strictly. If you truly believe that everything you posted is necessary, and that there is no way to reasonably shorten it, we (you, the other drafters, and I) can discuss giving you an extension which the clerk bot will acknowledge. Keep in mind, though, that many diffs will speak for themselves, and tend to be preferable for us rather than paragraphs of text. I see you've only included two diffs, so adding some more may be helpful. [[User:Hersfold|'''''<em style="font-family:Bradley Hand ITC;color:blue">Hers</em><em style="font-family:Bradley Hand ITC;color:gold">fold</em>''''']] <sup>([[User:Hersfold/t|t]]/[[User:Hersfold/a|a]]/[[Special:Contributions/Hersfold|c]])</sup> 19:45, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

::Some of my comments can be removed and I'm happy to point out which ones, but I don't think I can remove 400 words of comments. The questions I'm posing are essential to answer in this case.
::I understand diffs are strongly encouraged to prove a point, but a couple of my points are borne from experience, supported by multiple conversations across multiple pages in weeks, months, or years. I don't quite know how to provide evidence for this. Were this a case just about Malleus' behavior, it would be more appropriate to provide diffs. But this is about civility enforcement, as the title suggests. Civility is a malleable concept, which is obvious (at least to me) and it varies in definition and enforcement from one editor to the next.
::Let me know what you suggest is best. I appreciate the discussion. --[[User:Moni3|Moni3]] ([[User talk:Moni3#top|talk]]) 19:51, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

:::I'm reading through all the evidence now to see what sort of stuff we're getting - at the same time I'm drafting an email to the clerks on the subject. I'll probably have a better response once I get down to your section, but in the meantime I'd recommend trying to cut down and condense what you feel you can. I'll stop by later with some more specific pointers. [[User:Hersfold|'''''<em style="font-family:Bradley Hand ITC;color:blue">Hers</em><em style="font-family:Bradley Hand ITC;color:gold">fold</em>''''']] <sup>([[User:Hersfold/t|t]]/[[User:Hersfold/a|a]]/[[Special:Contributions/Hersfold|c]])</sup> 19:55, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

Your comments are very valuable, but many of them cannot really be considered as "evidence". Hence, rather than redacting them, I suggest moving some of them, e.g., to the workshop page. ''[[User talk:Geometry guy|Geometry guy]]'' 20:18, 31 December 2011 (UTC)


:My comments, which will more-or-less reflect what I'm asking the clerks to look out for in general:
:*Offering to forward us email evidence is useful, however bad-faith assumptions that we'll simply ignore it are not, nor are they appreciated; do also keep in mind that there are four new arbitrators now, two of whom are drafting this case. (P.S. - please email such evidence to {{NoSpamEmail|arbcom-en-b|lists.wikimedia.org}} - due to the high number of recusals on the case, we're using the alternate mailing list for this one.)
:*The evidence page is for the presentation of evidence - information that we need to consider when determining an outcome for the case. Questions such as the ones making up the bulk of your section are best posted to the "Questions to the parties" section on the workshop or on the case talk pages. Comments on the evidence presented by others should be placed in "Analysis of evidence" on the workshop or (again) on case talk pages.
:As Geometry guy says above, your comments do seem to be useful and indeed, central to the case, however, they're not evidence ''per se'', but more a commentary on the general situation. I believe a lot of it can be moved out, but any particular experiences you've had in regards to these issues can certainly be documented there. [[User:Hersfold|'''''<em style="font-family:Bradley Hand ITC;color:blue">Hers</em><em style="font-family:Bradley Hand ITC;color:gold">fold</em>''''']] <sup>([[User:Hersfold/t|t]]/[[User:Hersfold/a|a]]/[[Special:Contributions/Hersfold|c]])</sup> 20:26, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

:: Hersfold, will you allow me 24 hours to consider moving nearly the entirety of my comments to the Workshop page?
:: I will forward my correspondence with Rlevse to Risker, Casliber, or NewYorkBrad upon any of their requests. I will not email to the ArbCom list directly. I do not trust the ArbCom list and offering to forward emails to individual arbs, I hope, reflects an enormous leap of faith on my part.
::Again, I appreciate your efforts here. I'm not trying to be an ass. --[[User:Moni3|Moni3]] ([[User talk:Moni3#top|talk]]) 20:36, 31 December 2011 (UTC)
::: Moni, the peanut gallery has already taken over the Workshop page, even before Malleus has submitted evidence. I suspect this will be one of those cases where the Workshop page is largely ignored, since everybody who thinks they are or should be an admin is in there, many saying really dumb things. I think tighter evidence might be more helpful. [[User:SandyGeorgia|Sandy<font color="green">Georgia</font>]] ([[User talk:SandyGeorgia|Talk]]) 20:44, 31 December 2011 (UTC)
:::: I have read through the evidence and workshop page to date. I agree that there are some misguided contributions and unilluminating threads there, but believe the drafting arbitrators can be trusted to sort out the chaff from the wheat. Risker has a stated reputation for reading everything, and Hersfold has essentially asserted here that valuable comments will not be ignored.
:::: Best wishes for 2012, ''[[User talk:Geometry guy|Geometry guy]]'' 23:58, 31 December 2011 (UTC)
::::: I find the workshop format daunting and unhelpful. The clerks and arbs need to get a tighter grip on a case like this, where every Tom Dick and Harry has something to say. [[User:SandyGeorgia|Sandy<font color="green">Georgia</font>]] ([[User talk:SandyGeorgia|Talk]]) 00:39, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

Can anyone tell me the benefits of shifting my comments to the Workshop page?

* I also find the workshop page a tarpit, and it neatly reinforces why I never get involved at ArbCom.
* I like the way my comments are worded now. If I shift them to the Workshop, must I format them in the "Proposed findings of fact", "Proposed remedies" way the rest of the comments are currently formatted?
* Must my comments also be open to responses from other editors--responses that I find confusing and unconstructive? I don't lack confidence in my opinions about this case, but under no circumstance am I eager to engage in the bickering I see on that Workshop page. It seems to me that one must go with the other: if I post at the Workshop, that engages me to defend what I've already stated clearly and I find that a pointless venture.
* What's the alternative? Leave my comments currently at Evidence, have them abbreviated by a clerk who assumes my intentions? --[[User:Moni3|Moni3]] ([[User talk:Moni3#top|talk]]) 21:08, 1 January 2012 (UTC)
:*I would ''not'' move to workshop which is unreadable. I suggest you try to hack at them as best you can to get within range. The comments are good - prioritize and chose which you can lose and which have to stay. Let me know if you need help hacking. [[User:Truthkeeper88|Truthkeeper]] ([[User talk:Truthkeeper88|talk]]) 21:15, 1 January 2012 (UTC)
:::My first issue is that I don't have a word processing program that includes a word count function. --[[User:Moni3|Moni3]] ([[User talk:Moni3#top|talk]]) 21:19, 1 January 2012 (UTC)
::::I don't either, I can copy to google docs and do it there. So hack away, let me know when you're done, and I'll run through to give you a word count. [[User:Truthkeeper88|Truthkeeper]] ([[User talk:Truthkeeper88|talk]]) 21:21, 1 January 2012 (UTC)
::::Moni, I hacked at it little and stashed a version [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Truthkeeper88/FAC in a sandbox] that's <s>530</s> 516 words. Could you live with something like this? It's not as good as the original but the spirit is close and you won't lose it altogether. [[User:Truthkeeper88|Truthkeeper]] ([[User talk:Truthkeeper88|talk]]) 21:50, 1 January 2012 (UTC)
:Thanks for your comments Moni, and you TK. I have to say that I find the structure of the various pages and the different rules for each to be almost completely impenetrable. BTW, are you two the last females I haven't driven from the project? ;-) [[User:Malleus Fatuorum|Malleus]] [[User_talk:Malleus_Fatuorum|Fatuorum]] 22:24, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

I am sick to death of this already. The pages are indecipherable, the 500-word limit makes it impossible to say what one intends to say (I'm getting jumped on by thin-skinned editors on my talk who are experienced enough to know better), everyone and their brother thinks they have something meaningful to say, people who should know better are grinding axes, and all I can come up with is wonderment at why the heck the arbs accepted this case and how anyone can meaningfully contribute. I'm on the verge of striking my evidence and walking away. The case is not about Malleus, it's about problems with how we define and enforce civility. 22:33, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

::Malleus, in the totality of my experiences in life (certainly not limited to the Internet), your using the word "cunt" is a blip and the perspective of this situation is simply bizarre. Although I have my guesses as to why you provoke RfA as you do, I don't know how you find it practical in any way. To me your fine line between challenging the status quo and tilting at windmills is sometimes indecipherable.
::I don't understand why this case is about you. I mean, yes, I understand that it's about you and you called someone a cunt. I find it reasonable for you to be blocked for saying it, although indefinitely is abusive. I would have expected to get blocked for saying it too. But this case really is about the notion of civility being so mallea...heyyyy....anyway, malleable, shifting from one person to the next, dependent upon one's cultural parameters of civil discourse, while the other pillars of neutrality and free content are pretty clear, and the last IAR pillar destroys any clarity anyone may possibly gain from attempting to understand what this site's standards are. No wonder the Arbitration Committee is so necessary. In the realm of pedagogy--or basic communication--the 5 pillars are a complete failure. They reflect an idealism that has become increasingly ineffectual in practice.
::I'm participating in this case because I have to face admins/editors who can only see the primary hallmark of disruption to the project is profanity and much more disruptive actions are allowed by policy and condoned not only by written guidelines but administrator ignorance and inaction. I do not understand the collective desire to make this case about you. Because people must have symbols and you are the symbol of something? I don't know what you symbolize to other editors. Caustic communication? What's the point in having civil communication if much more essential problems are overlooked? I don't understand it. I don't think you can explain it either.
::I'm writing this mainly for me to be able to put stuff into words. New Year's Eve and Day are not optimal times to try to put one's thoughts into concise statements. --[[User:Moni3|Moni3]] ([[User talk:Moni3#top|talk]]) 23:09, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

== Cutting it down ==
Sucky rule, but whatever: stupid little ways to reduce words for example, did not --> didn't

=== Evidence presented by Moni3 ===
I <s>have</s> unblocked Malleus Fatuorum twice following <s>what I consider</s> blocks I considered so poorly thought out that they <s>did not</s> didn't warrant discussion at ANI.

# <s>First instance,</s> blocked by {{User|TenOfAllTrades}} <s>March 6, 2010</s> for <s>making</s> [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Chillum&diff=348235914&oldid=348205197 this <s>comment</s>].
# <s>Second instance,</s> blocked by {{User|Rodhullandemu}} <s>July 10, 2010</s> after Rodhullandemu made clear his desire to block Malleus. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Malleus_Fatuorum/Archives/2010/July#Disruption Full exchange <s>here</s>.]

===Questions and matters of clarity===

<s>The first time I unblocked Malleus</s>My first unblock speaks to the purpose of this case.

* What is the difference between a civility block and the frequently-deprecated-at-RfA cool-down block? This needs <s>to be answered clearly by</s> a clear answer from the Arbitration Committee.
* Are blocks intended to be used as behavior modification, particularly on experienced users who are outwardly unrepentant at the behavior that initiated the block <s>in the first place</s>? I saw TenOfAllTrades' block as an attempt at behavior modification that was <s>clearly</s> ineffective and served only to inflame <s>a bad situation</s>.
:* What do blocks <s>of these kinds</s> like these protect? <s>What was protected in these two instances?</s> What can ArbCom clarify about what admins should do with editors they find offensive <s>in the future</s>?

Stopped there, just some samples ... whole method is just stupid, especially with all the ridiculous posturing and pontificating going on on the workshop page, but what is really sad is seeing editors who never do anything to help others, no reviews, no selfless participation at GA or PR, only here to rake in their stars or generate drahmaz without ever helping out fellow editors acting in a way that will only undermine. Human nature in these cases is not a pretty sight to observe. [[User:SandyGeorgia|Sandy<font color="green">Georgia</font>]] ([[User talk:SandyGeorgia|Talk]]) 00:29, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

== Never speak ill of the dead ==
Moni, Moni, Moni, do not [[User:SandySucks|speak ill of the indeff'd]]. [[User:SandyGeorgia|Sandy<font color="green">Georgia</font>]] ([[User talk:SandyGeorgia|Talk]]) 03:12, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

==All pumpkins are great but you tried to eat the wrong one==
"Like offering to assist you on Otis Redding? --Moni3 (talk) 00:32, 7 January 2012 (UTC)
:That's a different Pumpkin (User:GreatOrangePumpkin vs. User:PumpkinSky) — Ched : ? 01:44, 7 January 2012 (UTC) " [[User:PumpkinSky|<font color="darkorange">Pumpkin</font><font color="darkblue">Sky</font>]] [[User talk:PumpkinSky|<font color="darkorange">talk</font>]] 02:46, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

:Rightly corrected, Ched. However, PumpkinSky, my points are salient. Dialogue in that discussion is not focusing on what can be fixed. It's language that is overblown, comparing the FAC director and delegates to God and dictators. That does not introduce specific issues to be fixed in the process. The editors using this language have very little if no experience at FAC. They have no valid complaints because they have no experience in which to observe the ways FAC may not function well. They must instead depend on hyperbole to make an impact if not a valid point. I do not understand why you and most of the other editors pushing for elections are involved in this discussion. If you have specific problems in how the director and delegates are harming the system, you should state them so we can figure a way to solve the problems. If you have no specific problems, you are wasting time. --[[User:Moni3|Moni3]] ([[User talk:Moni3#top|talk]]) 03:01, 7 January 2012 (UTC)
: =D <span style=font-family: 'Comic Sans MS'><font color=orange>[[User:GreatOrangePumpkin|♫GoP♫]]</font></span><sub>[[User talk:GreatOrangePumpkin|<font color=red>T</font>]]</sub><sup>[[Special:Contributions/GreatOrangePumpkin|<font color=red>C</font>]]</sup><sub>[[Special:NewPages|<font color=red>N</font>]]</sup> 14:53, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

::Yes, this makes me think I did not make a mistake in misidentifying (either of) you. --[[User:Moni3|Moni3]] ([[User talk:Moni3#top|talk]]) 14:55, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

==Editing others comments==
Why is okay for you to edit others comments? Isn't there some rule against that? Seems to me you're the one edit warring and should stop. [[User:PumpkinSky|<font color="darkorange">Pumpkin</font><font color="darkblue">Sky</font>]] [[User talk:PumpkinSky|<font color="darkorange">talk</font>]] 14:59, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

:Can you run through the sequence of events for your own edification and post them here so you and everyone else can see what's going on? --[[User:Moni3|Moni3]] ([[User talk:Moni3#top|talk]]) 15:01, 7 January 2012 (UTC)
::I think you should do that.[[User:PumpkinSky|<font color="darkorange">Pumpkin</font><font color="darkblue">Sky</font>]] [[User talk:PumpkinSky|<font color="darkorange">talk</font>]] 15:05, 7 January 2012 (UTC)
:::I already know what has happened. It does not appear that you know what has occurred. I'm offering you a chance to put together a sequence here that proves I've edit warred, as stated in your accusation. I think you shall decline, if only for the fascinating aspect of human nature in which people often accuse others of behavior they are blatantly exhibiting, such as cabals and tag teaming. But again, if you have no valid point and hyperbole doesn't seem to be working, disrupting the conversation and misdirecting attention from the heart of the discussion will also work sometimes. --[[User:Moni3|Moni3]] ([[User talk:Moni3#top|talk]]) 15:11, 7 January 2012 (UTC)
::::That's good delusional and self serving thinking at its best.[[User:PumpkinSky|<font color="darkorange">Pumpkin</font><font color="darkblue">Sky</font>]] [[User talk:PumpkinSky|<font color="darkorange">talk</font>]] 15:17, 7 January 2012 (UTC)
::::: Calling into question the sanity of your opposition also works sometimes. Well played. --[[User:Moni3|Moni3]] ([[User talk:Moni3#top|talk]]) 15:36, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

: "Editing others comments" — there's a "WP:" page about that; go read it and stop removing post that you don't like. [[User:Alarbus|Alarbus]] ([[User talk:Alarbus|talk]]) 16:20, 7 January 2012 (UTC)
:: Alarbus, you edited my comments as well. Twice. And yours were shifted down, not removed. I did not shift your comment because I disliked it. Actually, I didn't remove it in the first place. Or the third (fourth? I lost count). But once more, I'm encouraging you to respond to the heart of the discussion, provide concrete examples of problematic behavior of Raul's or Sandy's, so this can be a discussion about the problems at FAC. The more you avoid the heart of the argument, make it about me, or interject in inappropriate places, the more it seems you have no position and are trying to be disruptive just for the sake of it. Indeed, I cannot see your perspective at all. You've never written an FA, so why should you care? What experience do you have in writing or maintaining FAs? I don't understand why you have a dog in this fight, so to speak. So dazzle me with your intellect and ability to see solutions where there are problems. --[[User:Moni3|Moni3]] ([[User talk:Moni3#top|talk]]) 16:31, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

:: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Featured_article_candidates&curid=437575&diff=470099216&oldid=470098783] Point 1, thanks Alarbus, for removing the aside. Point 2, about the politicking and campaigning, has it begun per your edit summary? Shall the ratfucking begin? --[[User:Moni3|Moni3]] ([[User talk:Moni3#top|talk]]) 16:38, 7 January 2012 (UTC)
:::I think it started on my page a month ago and he's not forgotten. I tried to give an olive branch but ended up at AN/I instead. Now I'm trying to decide whether this kind of stuff will make me walk from here or whether it's worth just getting on with article building. A very wise person once told me something to the effect of taking Wikipedia day by day - I'm currently in that mode. [[User:Truthkeeper88|Truthkeeper]] ([[User talk:Truthkeeper88|talk]]) 17:01, 7 January 2012 (UTC)
::::I understand, but I have a wonderfully short memory and had forgotten who Alarbus was. I can barely remember the exchange on your talk page. I'm quite certain, however, none of it had anything to do with electing FA directors or delegates. It is possible to have a discussion about actual issues, like elections at FAC, without bringing up irrelevant issues. What kind of chaos would it create for me to bring up Wehwalt's support of Mattisse? It would be useless and pointless and entirely irrelevant to what we're discussing at WT:FAC. And for God's sake, I'm only using it here as an illustration, not an invitation to re-enter that shithole. It's inevitable that on a social site like this we're going to disagree with other people. I disagree with people all the time, including Raul and Sandy. The mark of intelligence that is often found at FAC, if nowhere else on this site, is that editors can drop their previous squabbles and concentrate on solving problems while prioritizing high quality material. --[[User:Moni3|Moni3]] ([[User talk:Moni3#top|talk]]) 17:08, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

=== Point of order on Alarbus connection ===
<blockquote>You've never written an FA, so why should you care? What experience do you have in writing or maintaining FAs? I don't understand why you have a dog in this fight, so to speak. So dazzle me with your intellect and ability to see solutions where there are problems. --[[User:Moni3|Moni3]] ([[User talk:Moni3#top|talk]]) 16:31, 7 January 2012 (UTC)</blockquote> It is not factually proven that Alarbus has never written an FA, nor known what his dog in the fight is, as he is rather clearly a returning account. Sticking to facts: Wehwalt's long-time mentee (TCO) wrote an article attacking FAC and calling for elections during a time Wehwalt avoided opposing FACs or RFAs so as not to "risk alienation" (his words) and because he "finds it hard to judge other's work", some of us nimwits were distracted into thinking TCO was after me (I'm just a small-fry grunt), it is subsequently revealed that Wehwalt aspires to be FA director (curious for someone who finds it hard to judge other's work and couldn't even keep up with [[WP:TFAR]]), a review of old history reveals that this push started long ago, and y'all figure out the Alarbus connection and his ire at Raul from there. Naturally, Wehwalt doesn't aspire to first do the real work of being a delegate or the years of work that Raul put into building the FA process to the best functioning area of Wikipedia, since being a delegate is a lot of really hard grunt work-- now being director of the whole process without doing anything to earn that, that's something worthy for a mentee to write up an attack on FAC and bring in ''The Signpost''. Nothing clear until Wehwalt was suddenly upset that I launched a discussion in the New Year, just as I promised I would, without first checking with him, a person previously thought to have no pony in the race. Unfortunate that all of November and December was spent on the small stuff, missing the much bigger picture-- time wasted. [[User:SandyGeorgia|Sandy<font color="green">Georgia</font>]] ([[User talk:SandyGeorgia|Talk]]) 18:54, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

:(ec x 4,000) At this point in my tenure on Wikipedia, I assume everyone who I've never encountered, including the people I have encountered and I forgot I encountered, are Wikipedians I have previously encountered or have quite a bit of experience on Wikipedia. Any influx of new editors is probably a recycling of previous editors who have been blocked, banned, or left one username in shame. The right to vanish and rename oneself is not something I approve of unless one's identity has been compromised. It allows duplicity and discourages learning tough lessons. It allows people to continue engaging in underhanded infantile behavior.

:That said, I have no idea who Alarbus is. The discussion really would go much more smoothly and I just may be persuaded on some points relevant to the issue if the editors pushing so fervently for elections were able to word their opinions in ways that have value. Their experiences writing articles, concrete examples of instances in which the leadership at FAC has failed, and the ways in which article quality has been diminished because of it. I haven't seen this and for the most part have seen underhanded infantile behavior. I remain unpersuaded and the more I watch what is occurring the more I am convinced that any election at FAC will be taken over by dirty politics. Imagine an FA delegate elect whose FA(s) are swarmed by other editors opposing them at such an election, making poor edits, forcing them to 3RR and the Wikiquette boards. Any way you slice it, elections will only hurt content. --[[User:Moni3|Moni3]] ([[User talk:Moni3#top|talk]]) 18:58, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

:: '' ... any election at FAC will be taken over by dirty politics ... ''. Will be? Already has, and it was well underway long ago. Kind of a disgusting commentary on the nature of some human beings, but whatevs. [[User:SandyGeorgia|Sandy<font color="green">Georgia</font>]] ([[User talk:SandyGeorgia|Talk]]) 19:02, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

:::So is it your opinion that discussion is pointless? Shall I retire to my boudoir and ingest chocolate covered fruits, leaving the surge for progress to its inevitable conclusion? --[[User:Moni3|Moni3]] ([[User talk:Moni3#top|talk]]) 19:07, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

:::: Is there any good reason you can't retire to your boudoir and ingest chocolate covered fruits while also engaging in the discussion? You inferior being! Sometimes good guys don't finish last, and people see straight through nasty politics and campaigning. And life goes on ... I don't know what the "inevitable conclusion" is, but I do know it depends on how many IRC buddies they can bring in. Darn Raul-- bringing in people just like himself who believe in openness and transparency and keeping communication on Wiki for all to see!! Wonder how that will fare with these dirty politics-- but you do what you do, and remember "it's the internet"! [[User:SandyGeorgia|Sandy<font color="green">Georgia</font>]] ([[User talk:SandyGeorgia|Talk]]) 19:30, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

== [[Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Civility enforcement/Evidence/Blocks]] ==

In the course of an ongoing case, the Arbitration Committee has decided to collect all relevant information regarding [[User:Malleus Fatuorum|Malleus Fatuorum]]'s block log and, as such, has created a table of all blocks, which can be found [[Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Civility enforcement/Evidence/Blocks|here]]. Since you either blocked or unblocked Malleus Fatuorum, you are welcome to comment, if you wish. <span style="text-shadow:grey 0.118em 0.118em 0.118em; class=texhtml"> '''[[User:Salvio giuliano|Salvio]]'''</span> [[User talk:Salvio giuliano| <sup>Let's talk about it!</sup>]] 13:56, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

== Your Arbitration evidence is too long ==

Hello, Moni3. Thank you for your recent submission of evidence for the Civility enforcement Arbitration case. As you may be aware, the Arbitration Committee asks that users submitting evidence in cases adhere to limits regarding the length of their submissions. These limits, of {{User:HersfoldArbClerkBot/Length header/Words}} words and {{User:HersfoldArbClerkBot/Length header/Diffs}} diffs maximum, are in place to ensure that the Arbitration Committee receives only the most important information relevant to the case, and is able to determine an appropriate course of action in a reasonable amount of time. The evidence you have submitted currently exceeds at least one of these limits, and is presently at 657 words and 2 diffs. Please try to reduce the length of your submission to fit within these limits; [[Wikipedia:Arbitration/Guide to arbitration|this guide]] may be able to provide some help in doing so. If the length of your evidence is not reduced soon, it may be refactored or removed by a human clerk within a few days. Thank you! If you have any questions or concerns regarding the case, please contact the drafting Arbitrator or case clerk (listed on the case pages); if you have any questions or concerns about this bot, please contact [[User talk:Hersfold|the operator]]. On behalf of the Arbitration Committee, '''''<em style="font-family:Bradley Hand ITC;color:blue">Hers</em><em style="font-family:Bradley Hand ITC;color:gold">fold</em>'''''[[User:HersfoldArbClerkBot|ArbClerk'''BOT''']]<sup>([[User:Hersfold/t|talk]])</sup> 03:43, 13 January 2012 (UTC)

:Sorry; I'm currently fixing the bot, and running it from my local machine, so it doesn't have the same warning log it usually has. This should be the last time you receive a notice for this case. [[User:Hersfold|'''''<em style="font-family:Bradley Hand ITC;color:blue">Hers</em><em style="font-family:Bradley Hand ITC;color:gold">fold</em>''''']] <sup>([[User:Hersfold/t|t]]/[[User:Hersfold/a|a]]/[[Special:Contributions/Hersfold|c]])</sup> 03:47, 13 January 2012 (UTC)

== Signature ==
Again? We've talked about this. I don't want my signature on here. It's your talk page, but my signature. I only want it in the context it was meant for. [[User:Rusted AutoParts|'''RAP''']] ([[User talk:Rusted AutoParts|talk]]) 23:30 14 January 2012 (UTC)

::What a coward you are, [[User:Rusted AutoParts |Rusted AutoParts]]. You made a complete cock-up of all those Buffy articles, were rude to everyone who objected to your cowboy actions, then left us to clean up after you (an effort that is ''still'' ongoing--thanks for that). And after being such a dick and making the comment Moni has left here for all to see, you want anonymity? Why? For a while you seemed quite proud of your outrageous behavior. When, exactly, did you figure out that it wouldn't win you friends here? At least stand by your own statements; you're a pathetic little boy.--[[User talk:TEHodson|TEHodson]] 01:54, 15 January 2012 (UTC)
:::That is irrelevant, bitch. I'm done with that ''Buffy'' shit. Piss off. And yo are '''so''' welcome. I decided to leave that to the Buffy "experts". I had nothing but intention to help improve, but all you could think of is how to make me feel more shitty. Do you know what it's like to go through that? To go through that when you aren't hot on yourself in life? Driving you to the point where you no longer want to put up with it and just find a permanent solution to it? HAVE YOU?! [[User:Rusted AutoParts|'''RAP''']] ([[User talk:Rusted AutoParts|talk]]) 2:33 15 January 2012 (UTC)
::::Knowing the definition of "improve" would have helped.--[[User talk:TEHodson|TEHodson]] 03:32, 15 January 2012 (UTC)
:::::That made me smile :) [[User:Casliber|Casliber]] ([[User talk:Casliber|talk]] '''·''' [[Special:Contributions/Casliber|contribs]]) 05:30, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

== Women editors ==

Moni, did you see this? http://suegardner.org/2011/02/19/nine-reasons-why-women-dont-edit-wikipedia-in-their-own-words/#comment-1318 There is a long string of comments, including ones from me at the end (under the name MirrorGirl) and I'm wondering what you have to say about it. I notice you've been a bit, shall we say, absent?? Hope you're well.--[[User talk:TEHodson|TEHodson]] 20:29, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

:I hadn't see that, but I participated in a study by [[User:SarahStierch]] about female editors. I know Wikipedia is a massive place and I'll never see all its nooks and crannies, but frankly I don't see the problems other women have reported. In fact, participating in writing and reviewing FAs and GAs puts editors right up against some of the strongest female editors on Wikipedia (be that for good or bad--they're still very strong presences). Editors involved in content review at FA and GA are usually highly knowledgeable and competent, and by assessing articles with high standards, are able to shape the way Wikipedia presents its best work. I've never been called something degrading for being female (unlike you, such is evident in the section above). At least I can't remember if I have. If I have, it didn't make much of an impression on me. I've caught flak instead for being openly gay, but har har, most of the folks slighting me for being gay have assumed I'm male. It's my love for disco, no doubt. ABBA rules.

:I started farting around on the internet, on IRC and whatnot, in 1994. I've been involved in usenet and other chat boards here and there, and really Wikipedia is not terribly different from other places on the internet in the way people communicate. That is to say that internet communication, with the audience and anonymity, generally presents sharp communication that is short and to the point and can be taken badly if one has low self-esteem in the first place. While most people argue on chat boards and usenet just for the sake of arguing, on Wikipedia arguing ostensibly has a purpose: content of articles. I find most of the editors doing most of the arguing spend the least amount of time working on content.

:I read your comments and was both unsurprised at the lack of familiarity and sloppy adjectives some of the other editors claiming bad experiences, and pleased with your dry, factual replies. So go you. I read once a magazine article about the US Women's Soccer team and it must have been 10 years ago now, but the coach of the team was male and he had worked both with men and women in the past and he said stuff about how it's necessary to coach men and women differently. When a coach tells men "Some of you aren't working hard enough", he said the men will assume he's talking about someone else where the women will assume he's talking about them. I guess that's to illustrate that women tend to personalize some issues more than men do.

:As for being away, I've got some books I need to read through to finish the Buffy articles I said I would write. I can only work in bursts of a couple months or so and then I'm back to not being able to pay attention to anything for any amount of time. While working on ''Buffy'', I got sidetracked when I discovered another area of interest I would love to learn more about and then write articles for, but I just don't have the time and energy to do it. Things suck all around, but it's not because I have boobs that they suck. Btw, I have boobs. Ha. I'll get back to writing the character articles soon, I hope. Or maybe someone else will knock them out and surprise the hell out of me. --[[User:Moni3|Moni3]] ([[User talk:Moni3#top|talk]]) 21:20, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

:::: You should consider naming your boobs. [[User:SandyGeorgia|Sandy<font color="green">Georgia</font>]] ([[User talk:SandyGeorgia|Talk]]) 22:50, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

:::::There was a fashion among a certain class of women some years ago to have their breasts tattooed, one [[mild ale|mild]], the other [[bitter (beer)|bitter]]. [[User:Malleus Fatuorum|Malleus]] [[User_talk:Malleus_Fatuorum|Fatuorum]] 23:00, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

::::::If you closed your eyes, could you tell the difference?--[[User talk:TEHodson|TEHodson]] 23:42, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

::Glad you're alive and well (breasts and all). I still haven't finished the copy-editing for the Master, as I got burnt out, too, so I can certainly understand taking a break. No rush.

::I thank you for the commendation; I don't know if my last comment was up when you read them, about becoming a film director, but it has never seemed to me particularly sensible or fruitful to consider myself in any way hindered by my sex. And it seems to me that, sadly and ironically, some of the women's comments actually made the case for poor efforts by women more effectively than anything any man has ever said. As for dear RAP above, he is 17 and not the brightest bulb, and I put his animus down more to being a defensive 17-year old than a sexist (and he apologized on my talk page, as he inevitably does). It can be hard to get along here, but as I've almost never been identified as female until I myself spoke up about it, I just can't see that any problems I may have encountered had to do with that. I do feel a sisterly solidarity with women such as yourself because I am, without apology, a feminist and therefore will always support you (or anyone else for that matter) if under attack (and I'll tell you myself if I think you're wrong or not handling a problem constructively). And if I saw such bullying I'd do my best to stop it, but when I've been bullied there's been no indication that it was because someone guessed I was sporting breasts, and none of the bullies has bested me yet. And I've gotten tougher (stern, is my usual word for how I deal with difficult people) as I've got surer of myself. I can't imagine quitting after 20 minutes because of one or two irksome encounters. Quitting only reinforces the problems, it doesn't solve them.

::I found Yonmei's contention that American males were running the show interesting, too. I've encountered more strong British male editors than American. Smarter, surer of themselves, and usually very good at what they do (even if they are, like Malleus, a handful; he was the first experienced editor I asked for help, back when I started, and he was incredibly generous with me). But then, I haven't tried to dissect the population into sex, nationality, sexual orientation, religion, hair color, fashion sense, taste in music. All that said, I'd like to see more women editing, and with confidence, about subjects they're interested in. I'm about to tackle a re-write of the [[Dorothy L. Sayers]] article. You should read it--it reads like a People Magazine piece crossed with The Daily Mail. Crikey! I gave fair warning that I was about to go to work on it so that those to whom it is dear will have a chance to start the clean-up themselves.

::I also left a message on [[User talk:Yonmei |Yonmei's Talk]] page suggesting she check you out, as you have common interests. I did warn her that you are a monster who will eat her alive if she's not perfect, and told her of the many corpses littering your back yard--male, female, even very small children who have, while trying to reach the keyboard, made accidental typos. Live by the sword, Moni, die by the sword. Hope that was okay.--[[User talk:TEHodson|TEHodson]] 22:12, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

:::Hahah, what the fuck? A monster who eats editors alive? Hahaahha! I haven't even seen your comment. You are high. (After seeing it...pull the other one...this leg is long enough. Gave me a laugh though.) --[[User:Moni3|Moni3]] ([[User talk:Moni3#top|talk]]) 22:17, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

::::And I've seen your backyard. Those poor little kids...--[[User talk:TEHodson|TEHodson]] 22:18, 16 January 2012 (UTC)
:::::My father has a habit of cutting off his finger and getting it sewn back on. After the third time the doctors just said what the everloving shit? you don't deserve a finger anymore and they took it off. The next year I drew on his father's day card a cemetery of fingers instead of headstones. Knowing that I have his genes, I stay away from most sharp implements--although walls and doorknobs get me all the time. --[[User:Moni3|Moni3]] ([[User talk:Moni3#top|talk]]) 22:21, 16 January 2012 (UTC)
::::::I love your phrase "has a habit of", as though it's one he's developed and cultivated. Very funny story. But you only have half his genes, or rather, half your genes are from him, so probably one of your hands is safe. When you get right down to it, a girl really only needs one...--[[User talk:TEHodson|TEHodson]] 22:27, 16 January 2012 (UTC)
:::::::I think we just won the "Fastest time from serious commentary on misogyny to advice about self-pleasure". I'm honored to hold this record. I shall cherish it for as long as I can remember it. --[[User:Moni3|Moni3]] ([[User talk:Moni3#top|talk]]) 22:30, 16 January 2012 (UTC)
::::::::Conversational entropy or evolution, would you say? (And you should preserve it up at the top of your page, right after RAP's charming comment--your Talk page will become even more popular).--[[User talk:TEHodson|TEHodson]] 22:33, 16 January 2012 (UTC)
:::I suppose I can be a bit of a handful, but there's nothing gender-related in it; I'm just as happy to wade into a male as a female if I think it's warranted. I'm glad though that you found our first encounters to be encouraging. I do like to know something about the editors I work with here, as it helps to set an appropriate tone and style. Teenagers, for instance, are an entirely different species as far as I'm concerned, and I've been told often enough that men and women sometimes think about things in different ways. [[User:Malleus Fatuorum|Malleus]] [[User_talk:Malleus_Fatuorum|Fatuorum]] 22:36, 16 January 2012 (UTC)
::::Hello, Malleus. Welcome to the Pleasure Dome. Someone has just this second left a comment on the above-linked blog about you and your nefarious ways.--[[User talk:TEHodson|TEHodson]] 22:38, 16 January 2012 (UTC)
:::::I found that blog post very interesting in a make-my-eyes-roll kind of way. Basically, a lot of people don't know/don't like the rules here. We'll cherry-pick the females who complain about it and make it essentially a problem with women? I would love to see disruption nipped in the bud earlier, and I think that will help recruit all kinds of people, not just women. [[User:Karanacs|Karanacs]] ([[User talk:Karanacs|talk]]) 22:42, 16 January 2012 (UTC)
::::::I find the idea that women are more put off by the atmosphere here on Wikipedia than men are, and that I'm some kind of chauvinist pig to be rather a strange one, as my personal experience is that I come across more female editors than male. And with only a few exceptions it's the male editors I tend to have problems with. [[User:Malleus Fatuorum|Malleus]] [[User_talk:Malleus_Fatuorum|Fatuorum]] 22:50, 16 January 2012 (UTC)
:::::I just saw it: "''Interesting that Wikipedia thinks that the word “cunt” is alright to use. There’s a guy Malleus Fatuorum, who regularly calls other editors 'cunts', and uses other sexually derogatory terms, yet he is considered one of the best editors on Wikipedia.''" The facts clearly mean nothing to these people. [[User:Malleus Fatuorum|Malleus]] [[User_talk:Malleus_Fatuorum|Fatuorum]] 22:42, 16 January 2012 (UTC)
:::::: "John Cook" writes ''just like'' sumbuddy we all ... erm ... know and love. [[User:SandyGeorgia|Sandy<font color="green">Georgia</font>]] ([[User talk:SandyGeorgia|Talk]]) 22:48, 16 January 2012 (UTC)
:::::::Indeed. Maybe chrisoff thinks she isn't getting the attention she deserves on WR. [[User:Malleus Fatuorum|Malleus]] [[User_talk:Malleus_Fatuorum|Fatuorum]] 22:50, 16 January 2012 (UTC)
::::::::I would prefer such words not be used (I do understand that British usage is different from American usage, though some women may not realize that), as I don't think they're particularly helpful, but it doesn't make me feel that it should be banned, or that the user should be banned. I object not because I'm a prude or averse to bad language per se (as you'd know if you heard me in conversation with my friends), but because it ends up making the argument about something else instead of the actual substance of the issue. It takes time and energy away from the real problem. That said, it does feel good to say those things and if my computer picked up what I say to it rather than just what I type on it, I'd be right up there with you, Malleus, in the "uses bad language complaint" department.--[[User talk:TEHodson|TEHodson]] 22:52, 16 January 2012 (UTC)
:::::::::I somewhat agree with you, but I'd switch it around a little. I'd prefer to see an environment in which nobody felt exasperated into using using such words. [[User:Malleus Fatuorum|Malleus]] [[User_talk:Malleus_Fatuorum|Fatuorum]] 22:56, 16 January 2012 (UTC)
::::::::::Hear, hear. I did just call RAP a "half-wit bumbler" the other day. That was very strong language for me here. What I called him inside my head, well, never mind.--[[User talk:TEHodson|TEHodson]] 22:58, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

Reason Number 10 (and it amazes me that Sue Gardner isn't aware of this): I have worked (and mostly work) with amazing women on Wikipedia (some of Wikipedia's finest editors), and I have worked with amazing men on Wikipedia, and I have encountered some very disruptive men, but the most frank psychopathology and Real Serious Sickness that I have encountered on Wikipedia has been from women. Who needs it? Now, if a man said that, he'd be shot, so I'm saying it. [[User:SandyGeorgia|Sandy<font color="green">Georgia</font>]] ([[User talk:SandyGeorgia|Talk]]) 23:05, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

::Quickly, someone. How the fuck do you spell "perogative"? I don't know why, but I can't spell nor find the damn word. Someone just lifted my comment here wholesale and stuck it on that blog. Now I'm mad.--[[User talk:TEHodson|TEHodson]] 23:10, 16 January 2012 (UTC)
::: That's Mattisse, aka Chrisoff -- someone might tell Sue Gardner she's entertaining an indeff'd editor on her blog-- one who just LOVES it when we pay attention to her. [[User:SandyGeorgia|Sandy<font color="green">Georgia</font>]] ([[User talk:SandyGeorgia|Talk]]) 23:13, 16 January 2012 (UTC)
:::[[My Prerogative|BOBBAY!!!]] --[[User:Moni3|Moni3]] ([[User talk:Moni3#top|talk]]) 23:14, 16 January 2012 (UTC)
::::Why did I not know about that first "r"? How odd. Thank you. I left a comment, which is "awaiting moderation." That really made me angry. I hope my comment goes up quickly.--[[User talk:TEHodson|TEHodson]] 23:29, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

:::::Do you guys know who this clown is, the one who is copying and pasting bits of our conversation here onto the Gardner blog?--[[User talk:TEHodson|TEHodson]] 04:39, 17 January 2012 (UTC)
You people. All this female editor wants to do is to improve [[Maya Angelou]] to the point that I'm not embarrassed when she dies. I did enjoy the one-handed joke, though. So true. [[User:Figureskatingfan|Christine]] ([[User talk:Figureskatingfan|talk]]) 05:29, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

== Talk:University of Florida Taser incident ==

I disagree with erasing that comment I've made - it could have been moved. A bit too cocky of me to write on top of the other user's comment, I can agree with that, but I had a point and his comment was dead boringly long.
About me correcting something that was written three years ago I think it's never late to correct a wrong or have a say about something, especially if that something is still online, molding younger reader's perceptions. I do appreciate, however, the gentleness and clarity with which you communicate. And thank you for welcoming me, btw. ~~RDS <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/187.113.201.87|187.113.201.87]] ([[User talk:187.113.201.87|talk]]) 01:25, 20 January 2012 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

== Hi, Hon! Favor? ==

Hi, Moni! Hope you're doing well! I have a favor to ask... I've worked on the [[List of lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender sportspeople]] to the point that I have the list in really good shape. The only thing I'm missing to get it to FL status is a lede. I'm not all that good at content, so I was wondering if you might be able to write up a section? I could be shooting in the dark, but I was thinking that one could start with the introduction that's found in all the [[List of gay, lesbian or bisexual people]] lists and rework it from there? Let me know if that's something you feel like doing. Thanks!! -- <span style="background: #EECCFF;">[[User:SatyrTN|SatyrTN]] <small>([[User talk:SatyrTN|talk]] / [[Special:Contributions/SatyrTN|contribs]])</small></span> 18:42, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

:Do you have anything written so far? If not, do you have access to sources that say anything about LGBT people in sports? Any lead would be a summary of what reliable sources say about the topic. I can help polish it up for you, but there has to be something there to polish. --[[User:Moni3|Moni3]] ([[User talk:Moni3#top|talk]]) 22:08, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

::Sadly, I haven't written anything. I'm pretty sure there are some good sources out there - I'll see what I can find :) -- <span style="background: #EECCFF;">[[User:SatyrTN|SatyrTN]] <small>([[User talk:SatyrTN|talk]] / [[Special:Contributions/SatyrTN|contribs]])</small></span> 17:07, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

== Thought of you... ==

[http://analyzedatheist.tumblr.com/post/16082248724/i-just-made-this-meme-what-do-you-think-let-me Hope you like] :) -- <span style="background: #EECCFF;">[[User:SatyrTN|SatyrTN]] <small>([[User talk:SatyrTN|talk]] / [[Special:Contributions/SatyrTN|contribs]])</small></span> 04:59, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

== Lady Gaga as gay icon ==

Hi Moni, how are you? What do you think of [[User:Stephenjamesx/Lady Gaga as LGBT icon|this]] article being developed? Please give your cents about it.:) — <font color="blue">[[User:Legolas2186|''Legolas'']]</font> [[User talk:Legolas2186|<sup>(<font color="red">talk</font><font color="green">2</font><font color="orange">me</font>)</sup>]] 06:51, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

:I'm not sure really what I think of it. It's massive. I can't separate my thoughts about its quality from my thoughts about Lady Gaga perhaps exploiting her fan base. Tell me there's someone out there who has written about her appropriating facets of gay culture to sell a million records. It's a complicated issue: she really has shined a light on disparity and discrimination, all while claiming she's a part of a minority she really is not. I'd be less conflicted if she were honest with herself and the media.

:The article also causes me some unease in that I wrote "[[What'd I Say]]" with the best sources I could find, making it one of the shortest articles I've written. It's miniscule in size compared to the volume of information available about Lady Gaga and Rihanna, although its importance is far greater. There's a global issue with [[WP:UNDUE]] that is bound to be a factor in the future for pop stars who record after the advent of Internet sources.

:Also, re: ''"God put me on Earth for three reasons: to make loud music, gay videos and cause a damn raucous."'' "Raucous" is an adjective, and not even Gaga can cause "raucous" to be a noun. Perhaps she meant "ruckus".

:These are just my initial thoughts. They aren't an indication of the quality of the article or the job you and/or other editors have done writing it. It seems a lot of work has been put into it, but I think these issues are going to arise at some point if you are seeking to bring the article to GA or FA. Or, in light of the often pedantic nature of some editors, these considerations may arise at a discussion for keeping the article on Wikipedia. --[[User:Moni3|Moni3]] ([[User talk:Moni3#top|talk]]) 16:42, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
::Thank you Moni for your honest opinion. They really shed a different light on the subject. Personally I would want her to really do things that she is good at, not claim to be someone else just for the sake of supporting. Articles like [[Janet Jackson as gay icon|this]] are also present, hence decided to create something along it. I do agree that [[WP:UNDUE]] and perhaps [[WP:RECENTISM]] might be the policies that it is violating. I will rather wait with the article. — <font color="blue">[[User:Legolas2186|''Legolas'']]</font> [[User talk:Legolas2186|<sup>(<font color="red">talk</font><font color="green">2</font><font color="orange">me</font>)</sup>]] 06:42, 1 February 2012 (UTC)
:::Well, don't do anything rash. My comments are intended to challenge you and the other writers, not douse your enthusiasm. Maybe a difficult/challenging discussion about the content of the sandbox is in order before it's posted to article space. --[[User:Moni3|Moni3]] ([[User talk:Moni3#top|talk]]) 23:43, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

== Save our Children ==

Thanks for uploading this image: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Save_Our_Children_Brochure_inside.jpg

Do you have the entire brochure or related materials? [[Special:Contributions/108.71.14.120|108.71.14.120]] ([[User talk:108.71.14.120|talk]]) 23:37, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

: Try the [[Stonewall Library & Archives]]. I called them to get the images in the article, except for the one of Bryant after she was hit with the pie. --[[User:Moni3|Moni3]] ([[User talk:Moni3#top|talk]]) 23:59, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
::Oh, how I'd like to see that picture! I just checked and the external links at the end of that article (Stonewall Library & Archives) seem to be dead or obsolete--the 2nd one takes us someplace else entirely. Wanted to let you know (and to say Hi).--[[User talk:TEHodson|TEHodson]] 01:00, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
:::Pic in [[Save Our Children]]. [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dS91gT3XT_A Or this]. --[[User:Moni3|Moni3]] ([[User talk:Moni3#top|talk]]) 01:03, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
::::Thank you!! I knew about it when it happened, but never saw the footage. "...go across the country and do away with the homosexuals..."? Wasn't mass murder illegal in the 70s?--[[User talk:TEHodson|TEHodson]] 03:32, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

== Talk:Homosexuality ==

Hi. Were you [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Homosexuality&curid=9594279&diff=474132885&oldid=474132298 talking to me or James Cantor]? [[User:Garik|garik]] ([[User talk:Garik|talk]]) 01:28, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

==Hurricanefan25==
Not only is he removing the tag from the checkuser confirmed and Rlevse confessed Pumpkinsky, he's also removing it from Barkingmoon, even as a multitude of connections between the two are being made on AN. I've warned him on his talk page if he continues he'll be the next one on AN. [[User:Raul654|Raul654]] ([[User talk:Raul654|talk]]) 22:28, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
:I don't have a problem with anyone removing the template from the BarkingMoon userpage at this time. Evidence is being discussed at AN, obviously. There does not seem to be a definite answer from an...authority...about BarkingMoon, just a lot of questions and suspicions. Someone really should perform a checkuser; should it turn out to be too similar to ignore with the neat little check image confirmation and everything, I would protect that page as well should others remove the sock template. --[[User:Moni3|Moni3]] ([[User talk:Moni3#top|talk]]) 22:32, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
::The Barkingmoon/Rlevse checkuser was performed last year and the results were inconclusive - some evidence in favor, and some against. The arbcom said to rely on editing behavior to link them, and the evidence that's coming out is (IMO) pretty conclusive. [[User:Raul654|Raul654]] ([[User talk:Raul654|talk]]) 22:33, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
:::It's your use of IMO that's giving me pause. I'm inexperienced with locating and ferreting out socks, but a little too experienced in watching moral panics--not that I think this is a moral panic at this time. I would rather err on the side of caution for now. I'd rather wait for a confirmation from checkuser or community consensus that the account should be blocked as a sock. --[[User:Moni3|Moni3]] ([[User talk:Moni3#top|talk]]) 22:37, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
::::An eminently sensible and well reasoned position, if I may say so. ''[[User talk:Geometry guy|Geometry guy]]'' 23:32, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

== Thanks ==

Thanks for the help on the Burmese Python in FL page - it's been languishing on my to-do list forever. [[User:HCA|HCA]] ([[User talk:HCA|talk]]) 21:14, 5 February 2012 (UTC)
:No problem. --[[User:Moni3|Moni3]] ([[User talk:Moni3#top|talk]]) 23:32, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

==Disambiguation link notification II==

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::I got it, Moni.--[[User talk:TEHodson|TEHodson]] 19:44, 6 February 2012 (UTC)
:::Thanks. Also, screw bots. --[[User:Moni3|Moni3]] ([[User talk:Moni3#top|talk]]) 21:51, 6 February 2012 (UTC)
:::You first. Sounds uncomfortable to me.--[[User talk:TEHodson|TEHodson]] 00:30, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

== In love ==

I think I'm in love. (You and Sandy.) How do you respond sincerely w/o getting indef'd by trigger-happy Admins? (If I say something an Admin doesn't like, next think I know, "final warning" for "behavior" and a gun to my head. What kind of totalitarian wack-o place is this? I am trying to figure it out.) Thank you. [[User:Ihardlythinkso|Ihardlythinkso]] ([[User talk:Ihardlythinkso|talk]]) 04:46, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

:Which admins have guns? This is a serious accusation. If they're holding guns to your head, it's probably a felony where you are. Perhaps you should contact law enforcement. --[[User:Moni3|Moni3]] ([[User talk:Moni3#top|talk]]) 12:47, 7 February 2012 (UTC)
::Moni, obviously I was using "gun to my head" figuratively to mean threat of indef block. Blocks and threats to block are often used punatively in WP, I don't need to point that out to you. I have no doubt some Admins use heir blocking power to satisfy a craven need to dominate and control others. Simple abuse of power, but pretty sick nonetheless. (If anynoe tracked me down physically because of a WP dispute, or threatened to, I'd probably call 9-1-1. Has that ever happened on WP that you know? I suppose I shouldn't be shocked if it has. WP is just a subset of an already corrupt and sick world.) [[User:Ihardlythinkso|Ihardlythinkso]] ([[User talk:Ihardlythinkso|talk]]) 06:55, 8 February 2012 (UTC)
:::Here's what's obvious:
:::* You come to my page telling me you love me. I don't know you from Adam. You speak in idioms, cliches, and hyperbole, just like everyone else on Wikipedia who've never met a sentence they can't wreck so that it can be interpreted 20 different ways. That's not linguistic sophistication; it's a complete breakdown in communication.
:::* You refer to guns and/or stalking in both comments. I make about ten edits a day, which is hardly a blip on the radar of Wikipedia and you're here asking me my opinions on...actually, I can't tell. Why in God's name are you here, Lambchop?
:::* Yes, Wikipedia editors' information is often publicly posted in other forums because people can't help being assholes. I've never done it. Private information that can be used to identify Wikipedians that is posted on Wikipedia is frequently removed by admins and oversighted if it's caught. If you have a concern about your personal information being posted on Wikipedia, I don't have the ability to oversight. You would [[Wikipedia:OVERSIGHT#Oversighters|have to go here]].
:::If you want to continue this bizarre discussion on my talk page, do me a solid favor. Cut the bullshit and speak plainly. --[[User:Moni3|Moni3]] ([[User talk:Moni3#top|talk]]) 22:13, 8 February 2012 (UTC)
::::I have no interest to fight with you (or anyone here). I came here because I admired what you said about loathing and avoiding ANI. It was a simple compliment since there are not many who speak out about it. It's as simple as that (no bullshit to cut) and I'm asking nothing of you. (I have no concern about public posting of info, and no one has pressed cold metal to my head. BTW if that had happened it would be a serious ''crime'', not serious ''accusation''.) I see that ANI was put up recently for deletion since my compliment was left for you here, or they are looking for some kind of reform there to minimize the insane environment there. That is reassuring, too, based on the one experience I had there which will be enough for me in a lifetime. I trust this reply is plain enough. [[User:Ihardlythinkso|Ihardlythinkso]] ([[User talk:Ihardlythinkso|talk]]) 03:34, 9 February 2012 (UTC) p.s. It's also true, I've been trying to figure things out around here, e.g., how you're able to speak your mind about ... anything ... whereas if I even ''respond'' to someone who's brought comments for my attention, well, that's grounds for block or threat of extended block?! (For that reason I don't like to put specifics here, but, I'm not asking for your help about anything. Neither do I know where to ask, but that is not your problem too.) Cheers. [[User:Ihardlythinkso|Ihardlythinkso]] ([[User talk:Ihardlythinkso|talk]]) 05:27, 9 February 2012 (UTC)
:::::Well, you came to this page and posted an attack against admins. Incivility and crudity may get you warnings. Making personal attacks (and calling admins "trigger-happy" sounds like an attack to me) will get you blocked if you keep it up. -- [[User talk:Donald Albury|Donald Albury]] 12:44, 9 February 2012 (UTC)
:::::::Let's chill on the over-the-top blocking threats, please. [[WP:Lèse majesté]] isn't policy quite yet. <small>(It's not like Ihardlythinkso said "sycophants" or something truly horrifying like that)</small> --[[User:Floquenbeam|Floquenbeam]] ([[User talk:Floquenbeam|talk]]) 14:12, 9 February 2012 (UTC)
::::::Oh my gosh, aren't we sensitive ("trigger-happy" is just a horrible thing to say, I'm sure!), and un-invited, and threatening, and making ourselves feel all better today. Can you read? "Trigger-happy" was a descriptive qualifier to those Admins who would block over someone giving a "sincere response". It was not a generic qualifier as you so accuse. [[User:Ihardlythinkso|Ihardlythinkso]] ([[User talk:Ihardlythinkso|talk]]) 13:43, 9 February 2012 (UTC)
::::::You want to chase somebody? Go chase this guy: "Some administrators are people who are vile and despicable individuals, who back stab you, who vary their policy to suit their ends, whose arguments are pathetic self-justifications aimed at serving their own personal needs. Some administrators routinely and habitually break social norms of courtesy in order to abuse other users. [[User:Fifelfoo|Fifelfoo]] ([[User talk:Fifelfoo|talk]]) 01:26, 22 December 2011 (UTC)"
::::::Or this user: "Unfortunately a kick in the bollocks is an occupational hazard of speaking truth to power. Particularly when it's in the hands, or rather boots, of the infantile. Adminfants are the curse of WP. [[User:Writegeist|Writegeist]] ([[User talk:Writegeist|talk]]) 18:10, 22 December 2011 (UTC)"
* I still can't figure out what this thread is about. --[[User:Laser_brain|<font color="purple">'''Laser brain'''</font >]] [[User_talk:Laser_brain|<font color="purple">(talk)</font >]] 14:38, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

Ihardlythinkso, I'm not fighting with you and I don't have an interest in it either, but it takes a pretty sharp knife to cut through bullshit of even the simplest kind. People are entertained by games here. I'm entertained by other things, but the pandemic miscommunication here, worsened by the fact that it's over the Internet, often makes even the simplest discussions into a tumultuous clusterfuck. And quite honestly, what do you think would be worse: getting block warnings after instances when you post your opinions (and post them frequently) or saving your comments until you really, really care about something and knowing that no one reads them? In reality, I'm sure you don't get warned ''every'' time you post your opinion, and there are probably three editors who read my comments when I post them. If you think important wheels are turning because I stated that I loathe ANI at ANI, you are perhaps conflating the importance of my comments or their impact into something that's not quite real. I consider that post a pebble I tossed down a well; I'll never hear from it again, I'm guessing. But I honestly think the sentiments in the post and I could hurt nothing or no one by posting it. (Also, I'm pretty surprised this many people are responding in this discussion...or even this many people have my talkpage on their watchlist.)

It's useless to advise others when they're not asking for advice, so I won't do that. But you seem to be saying you want it without asking. Or want something. Do you? --[[User:Moni3|Moni3]] ([[User talk:Moni3#top|talk]]) 22:24, 9 February 2012 (UTC)
:Thx for your sensitivity. In a way I was (asking for advice), yes, but would never infringe on your time & attn. (General was sufficient, which you've given, thx.) Meanwhile happy accident, Floquenbeam has aligned to discuss w/ me. Also meanwhile, Albury's threat s/ be apt & ample inadvertent demo to satisfy an alert Laser what the thread was about. Thx again, Moni. "''...[[Alien (film)|Nostromo]]'' signing off ..." [[User:Ihardlythinkso|Ihardlythinkso]] ([[User talk:Ihardlythinkso|talk]]) 13:37, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

== Comments on clerking proposal ==

Hi there, I hope you don't mind but in [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk%3AAdministrators%27_noticeboard&action=historysubmit&diff=475786536&oldid=475772016 this edit] I moved your comments on the clerking proposal to the page where a fuller discussion is happening. There was a danger of them being overlooked at AN. Please forgive the boldness and thanks for the comments! [[User:Kim Dent-Brown|<font face="century gothic" color="#0E6E2D">Kim Dent-Brown</font>]] [[User talk:Kim Dent-Brown|<font face="century gothic" size="1" color="#0E6E2D"><sup>(Talk)</sup></font>]] 17:07, 8 February 2012 (UTC)
: I don't mind. --[[User:Moni3|Moni3]] ([[User talk:Moni3#top|talk]]) 21:53, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

== Socking at Mulholland Drive ==

I blocked Jeremy28 as an obvious sock. I'll keep an eye on the sockmaster account but please ping me if you notice anything and I don't seem to catch it. I would normally block the sockmaster as well for at least a week, but seeing as you've warned him already, maybe we can let it lie. --[[User:Laser_brain|<font color="purple">'''Laser brain'''</font >]] [[User_talk:Laser_brain|<font color="purple">(talk)</font >]] 21:12, 11 February 2012 (UTC)
:Ok. I appreciate it. --[[User:Moni3|Moni3]] ([[User talk:Moni3#top|talk]]) 22:09, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

== Work proceeds ==

I let myself get annoyed yesterday - I should know better, but oh well. Anyway, work proceeds.

I finished the basic framework yesterday. The schema allows for diffs to be mapped to a user, to a specific thread and to an archive. These individual diffs can then be scored, and these scores can be rolled up to the thread level. I've also made room to expand the system to consider other noticeboards apart from AN/I, but I'm not planning to use that functionality in the short term.

Thread data includes who started the thread, how many comments it attracted, the open and close date, the general category (user complaint, sock, vandalism, page prot, etc) and whether it was resolved. User data includes whether they are an admin or an editor. (There are numerous other editor attributes we could include, but this was enough to get started). Diff data includes which user started it, the full text of the diff, the edit summary, and some analytic parameters.

The diff analytics consists of a set of 1-10 scores on various parameters. To get started I chose the following parameters: "Tone", "Relevance", "Sarcasm", "Hostility", "Constructiveness". I also have a flag for "Side Topic", and a measure for "Side topic relevance" - part of an attempt to analyze thread drift.

Note - It is already apparent to me that these parameters need refinement, but whatever, that's why we have prototypes.

I have loaded about 1000 users into the system (based on a scraping of who edited AN/I) and the threads headers from AN/I Archive 729 and 730. I've loaded about 50 diffs as well, but I want to get to 1000 before sending it over to you for review (1000 diffs is only about 3 days worth).It takes about a minute to enter a single diff (this will get faster), so there are quite a few hours of work ahead. I hope to have something to you by the end of the week.

Do you have MS Access available to use? I chose Access because it is great for "quick and dirty" development, as there are (no doubt) numerous fundamental changes yet to be made before we have a system we're all happy with. If you don't have Access I can dump the results out to a Google spreadsheet or similar resource. If the system seems useful we can look into making it more permanent in nature, but that's a long way off. [[User:Manning Bartlett|Manning]] ([[User talk:Manning Bartlett|talk]]) 03:47, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

:Thanks for letting me know about this, Manning, and thanks for the work. I'd love to look at what you've done - I might even have something sensible to say - it's not unknown, just rare :-) My home computers all stop at Access97, but I have the later versions on my work machines. It might be a day or so before I can spend much time looking at it, though, so don't hold anything up on my account. Thanks again for the work, and the heads up. <span style="font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold;color:#000;">[[User:Begoon|<span style="color:#0645AD;">Begoon</span>]]&thinsp;[[User talk:Begoon|<span style="color:gray;"><sup>talk</sup></span>]]</span> 04:52, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

::I can downgrade to 97 no problem, I'm only using 2000 (I prefer it to the later versions). Since posting the above I'm looking into getting a SQL dump out of the mediawiki database. While extracting one diff at a time is fine for preliminary development, it would be a lot easier if I could do a bulk read to get a few thousand updates loaded. (We'll still need to score each one manually, but at least having the basic data in place will save a massive amount of time). Of course, I've never tried to get my head around the Mediawiki schema before but I'm sure I'll figure it out. I might even take the 13 GB dump of the whole thing just for giggles. [[User:Manning Bartlett|Manning]] ([[User talk:Manning Bartlett|talk]]) 08:01, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

:::Cool - well if/when you get to a point where you think a second pair of eyes might help you, let me know and we'll work out a way for me to get hold of it. As I say, I'd be happy to help, but if it's all going along swimmingly, then maybe wait till you're ready for "reviews"? Whatever suits you, really, since you're doing the work. I've got a local MediaWiki install on my web server that I just use for a testbed really, but I haven't, like you, studied the schema in depth, just poked around a bit when I needed to modify something. I've never had a problem finding or extracting what I needed though. Thanks. <span style="font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold;color:#000;">[[User:Begoon|<span style="color:#0645AD;">Begoon</span>]]&thinsp;[[User talk:Begoon|<span style="color:gray;"><sup>talk</sup></span>]]</span> 08:11, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

::::Nah should be good for now. I just discovered this service - [https://wiki.toolserver.org/view/Query_service Query Service] which should give me everything I need in terms of raw data. I can then upload that and we'll have thousands of diffs to look at. The real challenge will be deciding how to go about scoring them, but that will come later. All of you will get to have some fun then. [[User:Manning Bartlett|Manning]] ([[User talk:Manning Bartlett|talk]]) 08:45, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
::::: You could also ask User:CBM for help. He has toolserver access and seems very good with SQL. ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 10:35, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
:::::Manning, thanks for the heads up on this and very glad you're still going. I have Access too if I can help at all, and some statistical skills if we come to start analysing data - my preferred tool is SPSS but I think it can take an Access flat database and read it. But maybe this is already something you have covered. In terms of actually gathering the ratings, it's probably completely far-fetched and over the top, but I was thinking about the crowdsourcing solution at [http://www.galaxyzoo.org/ Galaxy Zoo]. But I think that's probably just silliness.
:::::I was looking at the suggested variables of "Tone", "Relevance", "Sarcasm", "Hostility", "Constructiveness". Will you have anchor text to describe each end of the 10-point scale? Also, I suspect there'll be a lot of correlation between some, which will make some redundant - eg I suspect tone, hostility and constructiveness will all correlate. We could get rid of one or two of these, and maybe have a further variable on something like "Use of policy" - ie the degree to which WP policy is invoked, quoted or linked to in the diff? Does the thread data need a bit more detail on the resolution as well? Not just whether it was resolved but how - block, page protected, editor warned, complaint dismissed etc etc...
:::::Sorry if that comes off like an academic research supervisor advising a PhD candidate - I ''AM'' an academic research supervisor and old habits die hard. Thanks very much for doing this, I think it will be good to have the data to go with all the speculation we've been having. Apart from anything, it'll give us a benchmark against which we can measure any changes we eventually decide on. Thanks Moni3 for your input and the loan of your talk page also!! [[User:Kim Dent-Brown|<font face="century gothic" color="#0E6E2D">Kim Dent-Brown</font>]] [[User talk:Kim Dent-Brown|<font face="century gothic" size="1" color="#0E6E2D"><sup>(Talk)</sup></font>]] 11:05, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

Kim - I'm just using Access for prototyping of a data entry system - once I load all the diffs, we'll need to go through and score them and I can't use SPSS for that. Ultimately the best system would be a web front end over a MySql database, but I'm using Access for now because it is ideal for "quick and dirty". If we started with a web-based system then every time we change our mind about the params we'd have to recode the user interface (which gets really tedious). Once we have the data loaded and scored then SPSS would be ideal for analysing it (or Cognos which I work with).

I'm not real stressed about the params just yet, I think when you actually have diff data to work with your thinking might change anyway (it did for me). Once I get something out to you with diff data loaded you'll be in a much better position to make design choices. Cheers [[User:Manning Bartlett|Manning]] ([[User talk:Manning Bartlett|talk]]) 11:25, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
:Heck yes, I didn't mean SPSS for data capture - just for analysis once the data are assembled, cleaned and locked down. Look forward to seeing what develops! [[User:Kim Dent-Brown|<font face="century gothic" color="#0E6E2D">Kim Dent-Brown</font>]] [[User talk:Kim Dent-Brown|<font face="century gothic" size="1" color="#0E6E2D"><sup>(Talk)</sup></font>]] 12:02, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

Manning, et al, when I said I was short on time...that wasn't an exaggeration. This is the earliest I've been able to reply to Manning's original post on my talk page, and the rest of my week(s) are going to go the same. I feel like a dingus suggesting stuff and then having others do it, but it hadn't been suggested and it seems Manning and company know what they're doing--far more than I would.

Feel free to use my talk page to discuss it. --[[User:Moni3|Moni3]] ([[User talk:Moni3#top|talk]]) 21:54, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

:Thanks Moni. No dramas about you being time-poor. For general info, there's now a [[User_talk:CBM#SQL_Query_request|parallel discussion with CBM going on here]] (Thanks to Ascii for the tip). [[User:Manning Bartlett|Manning]] ([[User talk:Manning Bartlett|talk]]) 22:46, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

'''Note to all''' - this discussion is getting so fragmented I've created a userpage to centralize things. Please join me at [[User:Manning Bartlett/Moni3 ANI analysis]]. [[User:Manning Bartlett|Manning]] ([[User talk:Manning Bartlett|talk]]) 02:09, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

== Otis Redding ==

hello,

thanks again for your comments on the talk page. I wonder if you could borrow a book from a library? I don't know where you live (I guess in USA?), but maybe there is somewhere a library near you (you know, in my country the libraries are not very large): The book in question is [http://www.worldcat.org/title/otis-the-otis-redding-story/oclc/47443887&referer=brief_results this]. If you can, that would be excellent! :) Regards.--<span style=font-family: 'Comic Sans MS'><font color=orange>[[User:GreatOrangePumpkin|♫GoP♫]]</font></span><sub>[[User talk:GreatOrangePumpkin|<font color=red>T</font>]]</sub><sup>[[Special:Contributions/GreatOrangePumpkin|<font color=red>C</font>]]</sup><sub>[[Special:NewPages|<font color=red>N</font>]]</sup> 14:48, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

:If I get this book, what do you envision my involvement with the article would be? I've summarized a couple pages for editors before, but not an entire book, and not one central to the article. This is a biography of the subject. It's quite possible that should I find information relevant to the article that I would rewrite portions of it. As I've written 20 FAs, you know....I could end up taking the article in another direction. This might be upsetting. Often, editors who are responsible for shaping some form of the article get upset when others who have some knowledge make large edits to the article. I'm guilty of this myself. What's your vision here?

:Also, after reading your response to my question above, if I decide to get the book, I'm severely short on time. I wouldn't be able to get the book until this weekend and perhaps a chapter a week is as fast as I could go. --[[User:Moni3|Moni3]] ([[User talk:Moni3#top|talk]]) 22:07, 14 February 2012 (UTC)
::Thanks Moni! I would like to know more about his personal life, personality and singing style (I even don't know if he is baritone or tenor...). You don't even need to borrow it, just read the book in the library and if there is additional information then you could write it down somewhere. Also, if you find another book about him, such as [http://www.worldcat.org/title/otis-redding-try-a-little-tenderness/oclc/48672754&referer=brief_results], that would be also great! :) Thanks again.--<span style=font-family: 'Comic Sans MS'><font color=orange>[[User:GreatOrangePumpkin|♫GoP♫]]</font></span><sub>[[User talk:GreatOrangePumpkin|<font color=red>T</font>]]</sub><sup>[[Special:Contributions/GreatOrangePumpkin|<font color=red>C</font>]]</sup><sub>[[Special:NewPages|<font color=red>N</font>]]</sup> 10:26, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

:::Please read my response to your request again and answer my questions. --[[User:Moni3|Moni3]] ([[User talk:Moni3#top|talk]]) 13:00, 15 February 2012 (UTC)
::::I don't know, you could photograph the pages and sent it through eg Dropbox, or as I said you could write it in note form and then paste it here :P.--<span style=font-family: 'Comic Sans MS'><font color=orange>[[User:GreatOrangePumpkin|♫GoP♫]]</font></span><sub>[[User talk:GreatOrangePumpkin|<font color=red>T</font>]]</sub><sup>[[Special:Contributions/GreatOrangePumpkin|<font color=red>C</font>]]</sup><sub>[[Special:NewPages|<font color=red>N</font>]]</sup> 13:26, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

:::::That's not going to happen in any universe. I am ''severely limited in my time'' and I don't know how else to say that. Look at my edit history for the past couple months. I can spend an hour or two on a weekend, but I can't write anything substantial. Perhaps you do not know the time it takes to write an excellent article. I have, in the past, taken images of microfilm sources then emailed them to myself. One 20-page article took me 3 hours. Notes from a full-length biography would probably get done by October. I just don't have the time and dedication right now to research the topic and rewrite it. --[[User:Moni3|Moni3]] ([[User talk:Moni3#top|talk]]) 15:25, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

== You told me so ==

Moni dear, you did say that the RfA process was brutal, but really I had no idea. I mean, I didn't disbelieve you, but man! My RfA demonstrated another thing I remember you saying (at least I'm pretty sure it was you)--that the process is inherently flawed. I mean, I'm qualified to be an admin, but because I didn't cow down to their attacks ("Thank you sir, may I have another!"), some of which were personal, I don't "get it". And the Blue's Clues jokes? Please! I can't defend myself when I'm being piled on? And did you know that I'm a meanie who bites both newbies and established editors? And when I present evidence to the contrary, I get attacked even more? And when I withdraw, I'm accused of not being open to criticism? I have just one thing to say about that--Wow.

One thing is for certain, I'll think twice about submitting myself to that again. I missed the premiere of "Survivor" for that? The whole thing confirmed another thing I know you've said: content editors aren't supported here enough, and are even discouraged. Like I said, Wow. Anyway, rant over and I'll retreat back to my little corner and work on my insignificant articles. [[User:Figureskatingfan|Christine (Figureskatingfan)]] ([[User talk:Figureskatingfan|talk]]) 19:05, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

:Welcome to the club. I stupidly allowed myself to be persuaded for a second attempt after my first mauling there, but never again. [[User:Malleus Fatuorum|Malleus]] [[User_talk:Malleus_Fatuorum|Fatuorum]] 20:19, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

::Oh yes. That sounds like the hazing ceremony required for entering that particular club. No wonder all admins are assholes... or so I'm told. [[User:Maunus|·ʍaunus]]·[[User talk:Maunus|snunɐw·]] 20:45, 18 February 2012 (UTC)
:::Oh dear, I wasn't expecting that. I've been running round like a headless chicken and missed it. Damn. I find "reluctant" opposes odd (no-one's twisting any arms...) [[User:Casliber|Casliber]] ([[User talk:Casliber|talk]] '''·''' [[Special:Contributions/Casliber|contribs]]) 21:17, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

:::Echoing Casliber - oh dear. I missed it too - but I unwatched RfA a long time ago. My sense is that editors who write, and I know Christine from her FACs, aren't well-known enough to get through an RfA. Certainly I never would. But still, so sorry this happened .... [[User:Truthkeeper88|Truthkeeper]] ([[User talk:Truthkeeper88|talk]]) 22:11, 18 February 2012 (UTC)
::::The other thing I learned is that I should've "campaigned" more. I know you're not supposed to, but at the very least I should've put the template up on my talk page. But I was naive and didn't expect such nastiness. They say that I don't AGF, but one of my character flaws is that I expect the best of people, and I get disappointed. [[User:Figureskatingfan|Christine (Figureskatingfan)]] ([[User talk:Figureskatingfan|talk]]) 22:57, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

:::::I applaud you for trying and I noticed it was a Karanacs nom. I briefly looked at the page and though, "yuck". I'll read it through later. I've recently unwatched hundreds of pages, (obviously not Moni's) so as to cut out some noise, but you're right, would have been nice to have known about this. [[User:Truthkeeper88|Truthkeeper]] ([[User talk:Truthkeeper88|talk]]) 23:23, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

:::::A good tip is to post on highly watched editors' talk pages asking if they think you should put yourself forwards at some specific date in the not too distant future. [[User:Malleus Fatuorum|Malleus]] [[User_talk:Malleus_Fatuorum|Fatuorum]] 23:26, 18 February 2012 (UTC)
::::::There but for the grace of god....sometimes I wonder. 15 years ago I was an avid roleplayer and gamer. Had I been editing then I'd have been getting into wiki-scuffles at AfD trying to keep the stuff in, possibly alot more aggressively than I do now....my name would have been mud maybe....instead I mainly edit after my current hobbies of gardening, birdwatching and mushroom picking...hmmm. [[User:Casliber|Casliber]] ([[User talk:Casliber|talk]] '''·''' [[Special:Contributions/Casliber|contribs]]) 08:47, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

:Christine, I saw this last night and didn't quite know how to respond. I don't remember telling you that RfA was brutal, although I don't disagree that it can be for many editors. It was more unpleasant than brutal for me and I got over 100 supports. It's a system that tries to weed out the useless and brainless, but editors, both nominees and supporters/opposers see it instead as the Wikipedia community's consensus vote that you are (not) a fine person, a conscientious editor, and a reasonably intelligent feeling human. Don't make the mistake of coming away from a failed RfA by assuming the community is able to tell what a fine person, a conscientious editor, and a reasonably intelligent feeling human is, then voice their opinions about it en masse, like consensus. Don't also conflate RfA with some rite of passage that initiates you into the tribe, showing you represent the highest standards of Internet humanity. To accomplish that, the highest standards of Internet humanity would have to be spelled out clearly somewhere and all admins would have multiple originally written FAs, and know how to program shit so complex I don't even know how to describe it. I say this, you know, knowing I wasn't entirely able to approach my own RfA as if it was the same rite of passage I'm telling you not to see it as.

:It's astonishingly simple to summarize the worth of a person in a '''Support!''' or '''Strongest oppose possible''' comment. I often wonder where we get the balls to do such a thing. Anonymity, not looking a person in the face (or the crowd that would inevitably be gathered to watch it in person), and humanity's desperate need for things to be simple factor largely into this. It's unicorn rare to see a discussion anywhere on Wikipedia where two or more editors arrive with their views, present "have you thought of it this way?" statements to each other, admit that perhaps they had not thought if it a different way, then leave the discussion with an even slightly different view. Arriving to a discussion with your mind made up and your statements emphatic and never wavering is seen as a hallmark of strength, instead of stubbornness and arrogance that is often is. It's ironic that RfA demands the nominee be pliant and flexible while the voters remain steadfast and tenacious. It doesn't make good admins at all. Instead, it initiates aspiring admins into a system that proves itself to have conflicting standards, and a corps of admins who disagree so frequently that serious sysop decisions can never be made without the knowledge that another admin somewhere will not only disagree, but probably take you to ANI, ArbCom, or attempt to recall you.

:At any rate, don't waste any time getting down on yourself because of RfA. If you want to run again, I'd be glad to renominate you. Look at the issues others commented on and decide for yourself what you want to change. I think overuse of Twinkle may be a valid issue; I didn't see what the other complaints were. If you decide not to run again, then bully for you. There are entirely too few editors who write strong articles, make decently intelligent statements here and there, who do not aspire to please large groups of people in preparation for an RfA. Sometimes I wish I was one of them. --[[User:Moni3|Moni3]] ([[User talk:Moni3#top|talk]]) 15:19, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

== Florida cultural events ==

Hi Moni3 :-)

Great see that you still around and editing. I remember seeing you bring the [[Saint Johns River]] article to FA and was pleased to see fine writing on this kind of topic.

I now live in Saint Augustine, Florida, and plan to work with cultural heritage organizations and institutions in the area. I'm reaching out to you because you edit loads of articles about FL and you live close by to me.

Do you have any interest in doing either outreach to cultural heritage organizations in FL or on wiki assistance to new editors from this sector, or create content focus on holding found in the institutions.

In particular, I want to get the ball rolling planning Florida events related to [[Commons:Wiki Loves Monuments 2012]] that will happen in September 2012. This years focus in the US is images of places on the National Register of Historic Places. While living in Kentucky, my husband and I took and uploaded images of places on the NRHP so I have a general idea of the process. I'm most interested in finding the gaps in coverage of historical sites in FL, and figuring out the best way to get these covered with local events. We need both people to take the images, and people to create great articles where they will land.

Additionally, I plan to work with the Saint Augustine 450 Commemoration (a four year initiative to celebrate the founding of Saint Augustine and settlement of FL through educational and legacy projects) to see how that we can add value to their current events, and possibly plan some joint initiatives.

I'm also working with [[User:LoriLee]], the U.S. Cultural Partnerships Coordinator for the
Wikimedia Foundation, to create an listing of cultural organizations and institutions in the United States, and WMF volunteers interested in working with these organizations. The beginning stages of it are at [[Wikipedia:GLAM/US/Connect]]. We also plan to have State specific pages that link to the Wikiproject for each state.

Would love to hear your thoughts and idea, and to see if you have an interest in one or more of these projects? --[[User:FloNight|FloNight]][[User talk:FloNight|&#9829;&#9829;&#9829;&#9829;]] 19:46, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

:First of all, I have a red hot hate for anyone living in St. Augustine because I am not there. Call it jealousy if you wish; [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z8d8y4BLWtI Mrs. White from ''Clue'' explains it pretty well].
::LOL!

:You didn't bring 300 of your kinfolk to St. Johns County, did you? God forbid St. Johns County gets as overrun as Flagler, Marion, or, perish the hideousness of it all, South...Florida... Those who live in St. Augustine are bound by '''''God's law''''' not to advertise it so any semblance of natural beauty can be strip-malled and gated-communitied.
::My daughter graduated from Flager College 5 years ago. We loved the area so much from visiting her there that we moved down here. A really fun place to eat out and hang out looking at the sights.

:Secondly, my time here is now so limited that I am unable to create any new articles of any substance. I recently rewrote [[Burmese Pythons in Florida]], but that took me an afternoon. I am unable to devote any more than one or two hours a day to Wikipedia, and hardly any of my weekends. But I applaud your efforts.
::Keep a watch to what we are doing and if you have any spare time pitch in and help. An hour or two a week could be a big help from a talented, experienced contributor like you.

:Check out the Florida Music Festival at Stephen Foster State Park near White Springs (I think). It occurs once a year but it's worth visiting. Also, go to the Shrimp Festival in Fernandina Beach, get drunk, eat shrimp, call it "skramp". I'd love to see [[Marjorie Kinnan Rawlings]] written like someone means it, [[Eatonville, Florida|Etonville]], [[Zora Neale Hurston]], [[Fort Mose Historic State Park]], and the gem of all gems, [[Castillo de San Marcos]] and [[History of St. Augustine]]. Why is that a red link??? Also, [[Florida cracker]]. Go to the Florida Cracker Cafe on St. George Street, get their fried shrimp then pound cake a la mode for dessert. Instant diabetes and so worth it. Sit outside. We saw the Space Shuttle go off at night once while sitting at the Florida Cracker Cafe. Best restaurant in town and the Columbia can suck it. --[[User:Moni3|Moni3]] ([[User talk:Moni3#top|talk]]) 20:13, 19 February 2012 (UTC)
::We truly need to get rid of the red link [[History of St. Augustine]]. I took that horrible pic of [[Eatonville, FL]] city hall in the article several years ago when I traveled through there. I'd read [[Zora Neale Hurston]] and saw the city had no pic. But the sun was all wrong :-(.

::I'll take your advice as Gospel about eating at Florida Cracker. Love shrimp and adult beverages to aid in relaxation. :-) --[[User:FloNight|FloNight]][[User talk:FloNight|&#9829;&#9829;&#9829;&#9829;]] 01:42, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

::My husband got food poisoning from the Columbia years ago, before we met, so I've never been. I've heard the Cracker Cafe is good, but it smells of fish and that makes me sad. (Yes, I live in NE Florida; no, I don't eat seafood; I know, I know.) The Bunnery, on the other hand... *drools* <span style="font-family:verdana">[[User:Yllosubmarine|María]] </span><small>([[User talk:Yllosubmarine|<span style="color:red">yllo</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Yllosubmarine|<span style="color:green">submarine</span>]])</small> 19:33, 21 February 2012 (UTC)
:::You've only heard that the Florida Cracker Cafe is good but you know it smells like fish? Also, it has outdoor patio dining...not on fish entrails. Bunnery. Hah! --[[User:Moni3|Moni3]] ([[User talk:Moni3#top|talk]]) 22:07, 21 February 2012 (UTC)
::::Hey, I've walked past it before! I know what it's all about, with its down-home charm and sleazy gator mascot. The person who told me it was good also swears by the Conch House (bleh) and that place at the beach that uses dead things as decoration. (I mean, it practically has fur, skin and teeth for wallpaper. What remained after an especially hungry lunch crowd fifty years ago, I'm guessing.) Obviously I wasn't made to live in these conditions -- unlike my husband, who is the son-of the son of Florida crackers, I'm the daughter of a Navy baker from the Bronx, so... yeah. Cinnamon buns as big as my head FTW! <span style="font-family:verdana">[[User:Yllosubmarine|María]] </span><small>([[User talk:Yllosubmarine|<span style="color:red">yllo</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Yllosubmarine|<span style="color:green">submarine</span>]])</small> 13:46, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

== Trying to assign your DEFCON codes to past ANI complaints ==

Hello Moni3. Please see [[User:Manning Bartlett/Moni3 ANI analysis#Coding the first few items from ANI729]]. Hopefully this fits somehow into the project of ANI improvement through data analysis. Thanks, [[User:EdJohnston|EdJohnston]] ([[User talk:EdJohnston|talk]]) 23:13, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

== ... good advice given in the edit summary... ==

Thank you for your good advice given in the edit summary when you were reverting my edit in the article on the novel, '''''To Kill a Mockingbird''''' earlier this morning.

With best wishes from Wales, [[User:Gareth Griffith-Jones|Gareth Griffith-Jones]] ([[User talk:Gareth Griffith-Jones|talk]]) 12:23, 23 February 2012 (UTC)
:In nearly six years and 26,000 edits I've made to Wikipedia, you are the first editor to thank me for anything related to reverting their edit. I don't quite know what to say, other than you have a superhuman Grace--which shows even in this small instance. Have a fabulous day and enjoy Wales. --[[User:Moni3|Moni3]] ([[User talk:Moni3#top|talk]]) 12:41, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

::Thank you '''again'''. You are an inspiration. With kindest regards, [[User:Gareth Griffith-Jones|Gareth Griffith-Jones]] ([[User talk:Gareth Griffith-Jones|talk]]) 13:19, 23 February 2012 (UTC)
:::Ok, "inspiration" may be a bit over the top. I know a handful of Wikipedians who no doubt spewed their beverages on their monitors reading that I may be inspirational. Happy editing nonetheless. --[[User:Moni3|Moni3]] ([[User talk:Moni3#top|talk]]) 17:45, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

::::Ha! ha!
::::We have just had our first Spring-like day here. Yet, we witnessed our first snow this winter as late as the end of the first week of this month. [[User:Gareth Griffith-Jones|Gareth Griffith-Jones]] ([[User talk:Gareth Griffith-Jones|talk]]) 19:54, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

:::::No spewed bevs here. Moni both needs and deserves some good ole-fashioned butt-kissing from time to time. Come to think of it, so do I. ;) Yes, Monidear, you are inspirational, and people whose opinion mean anything at all agree. [[User:Figureskatingfan|Christine (Figureskatingfan)]] ([[User talk:Figureskatingfan|talk]]) 21:18, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

::::::OK, Moni and Christine, consider your butts officially kissed, ole-fashionedly. And, what the hell, you too Gareth! I would have used a wiki-love thingy to do this, but couldn't find a decent image. --[[User:Floquenbeam|Floquenbeam]] ([[User talk:Floquenbeam|talk]]) 21:58, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

:::::::I'm sure there are plenty of relevant illustrations on Commons... although you may need to have your eyeballs bleached after you spend some time looking around for them. '''[[User:MastCell|MastCell]]'''&nbsp;<sup>[[User Talk:MastCell|Talk]]</sup> 22:25, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

::::::::What '''have''' I started? [[User:Gareth Griffith-Jones|Gareth Griffith-Jones]] ([[User talk:Gareth Griffith-Jones|talk]]) 22:49, 23 February 2012 (UTC)
:::::::::My favorite wiki-love images are either of [[Cookie Monster|chocolate chip cookies]] or [[The Wiggles|fruit salad]]. Both are yummy-yummy! ;) [[User:Figureskatingfan|Christine (Figureskatingfan)]] ([[User talk:Figureskatingfan|talk]]) 00:25, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

== OK, I'll bite ==

You make a fair point that no one asked on your talk page about reducing or ending the indef block. So, I'll ask you straight out: do you object if it's reduced or ended? (If the answer is "no", I'm not going to just go do it. Obviously input from others is still needed.) [[User:28bytes|28bytes]] ([[User talk:28bytes|talk]]) 04:03, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

:I have objections at this time. Most of them have to do with Rlevse not owning up to and facing his own behavior. I saw it dismissed recently with the convenient summary that certain editors are out for their "pound of flesh". I don't think you or the other editors involved in this discussion are helping him by dismissing this. Certainly assigning me motives doesn't help him in any way. --[[User:Moni3|Moni3]] ([[User talk:Moni3#top|talk]]) 23:35, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

::Thanks for the reply. If I've not made it clear that I do consider there to be legitimate concerns with his editing, I apologize; I have told him myself that some of his behavior has been completely unacceptable, the pretending to be a newbie to reignite disputes particularly so. I recognize that not all of his supporters are willing to do that, which is unfortunate. The battleground behavior on both sides saddens me, and to the degree that I've contributed to that, I regret it. [[User:28bytes|28bytes]] ([[User talk:28bytes|talk]]) 00:00, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

::: P.S. I was quite familiar with the concept [[The Dozens]] but had not read the article, and am enjoying doing so so far. There's something quite endearing about the juxtaposition of the calm, encyclopedic tone and the topic itself. [[User:28bytes|28bytes]] ([[User talk:28bytes|talk]]) 00:00, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

::::I appreciate your replies. I understand people are emotional about Rlevse. There are editors for whom I have affection who have done less than wonderful things. Shit, I do less than wonderful things. It's a very difficult predicament. I understand in part where you are, and I'm not trying to be presumptuous. I don't hate Rlevse. I think he's got some issues he needs to work through. His best friends will help him do that. Others, who are quicker to dismiss his problematic behavior to hasten his return without examining the reasons behind that behavior are not doing anyone a service, and in my mind, need to ask themselves why they are so eager to prioritize Rlevse's return over Wikipedia's policies.
::::I'm glad you like the Dozens article. It can be expanded. Sadly, I don't have the time right now to do it. I hope someone does. --[[User:Moni3|Moni3]] ([[User talk:Moni3#top|talk]]) 00:11, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

:::::Would you be willing to work out with me the necessary conditions for an unblock? I don't want to prioritize his return over WP policies, but if we can have a returned editor who's willing to following policy and stay out of trouble, that seems like that would be in everyone's interests, no? [[User:28bytes|28bytes]] ([[User talk:28bytes|talk]]) 01:43, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

==Your block of PumpkinSky==
Hi, Moni, I see that Diannaa has requested an explanation of your block of PumpkinSky pursuant to [[WP:ADMINACCT]]. I also [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AAdministrators%27_noticeboard&action=historysubmit&diff=479446288&oldid=479446261 join in that request].--[[User:Wehwalt|Wehwalt]] ([[User talk:Wehwalt|talk]]) 09:58, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
:Super. I have no problem responding, obviously, as I have already done so. Would you similarly explain why you tolerated unhelpful commentary from both Rlevse and Alarbus? You are an admin. None of it was helpful. You should have stepped in and asked them to redirect their comments to something much more productive. All I could ask myself is why you expect so little from the editors with whom you commune. --[[User:Moni3|Moni3]] ([[User talk:Moni3#top|talk]]) 23:31, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
::I believe we've had that discussion, Moni, but thanks.--[[User:Wehwalt|Wehwalt]] ([[User talk:Wehwalt|talk]]) 23:39, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
:::So why the double standard? Why do I deserve the scrutiny here but you deserve none for doing nothing? --[[User:Moni3|Moni3]] ([[User talk:Moni3#top|talk]]) 23:42, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
::::I assume that's a rhetorical question? [[User:Malleus Fatuorum|Malleus]] [[User_talk:Malleus_Fatuorum|Fatuorum]] 23:48, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
:::::It absolutely is not. Internet discussions are rife with accusations, cliches, and pointless finger-pointing. I said pointless pointing... No one here really wants to dig down and be honest about themselves (cough, Malleus, you too) but they're more than willing to shift blame on others. What does this help? What true understanding or communication is achieved by this? None. It just places people into camps. I assume just to make things easier: I can't agree with all your points and I don't know how to respect the ideas I disagree with, so I'll simplify you by assigning you motives and questioning you without scrutinizing myself. I guess it makes people feel more solid to be so sure of things. I find it empty and useless. --[[User:Moni3|Moni3]] ([[User talk:Moni3#top|talk]]) 00:06, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
::::::None of us have been given the power "To see oursels as ithers see us". All any of us can try to do, including me, including you, is the best we can to act in accordance with the principles we believe in. I have long lived by the principle that if I wouldn't be prepared to call you a "cunt" or whatever to your face then neither should I describe you as such to a third-party, and I extend that principle to Internet communication; whatever I may say to anyone here I would be more than happy to repeat to their faces, else I wouldn't say it. That's what ''I'' call honesty.

::::::On the subject of Rlevse, it seems to me that there's a distinct whiff of cover-up, and an unwillingness by certain parties to recognise the scale and extent of the problem. The Mattisse farago surely ought to have been a clear warning that the worst possible outcome is likely to be the appointment of sympathetic mentors approved of by Rlevse. (The idea that he doesn't need mentoring is risible.) Therefore I think your indefinite block is at least eminently defensible. [[User:Malleus Fatuorum|Malleus]] [[User_talk:Malleus_Fatuorum|Fatuorum]] 00:41, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

Hasn't a step here been missed out? Shouldn't PumpkinSky be talking to Moni about the block, instead of others asking Moni? I suppose it has moved beyond that. Anyway, the longer this goes on, the more confusing it will get. I had my disagreements with Rlevse while we were arbitrators, and I felt very strongly that he should have stayed and dealt with the events of October 2010 at the time, and I was dismayed to find that he had been editing as PumpkinSky (though I wasn't that surprised), but have been more dismayed by the disagreements it has provoked among those commenting on and handling it. Maybe one way for things to move on from this point is for a clear timeline of events to be provided, along with outstanding issues to be resolved or discussed, to help see where to go from here. I suggest those with the time to do that start some centralised page somewhere, with links to all the discussions that have taken place so far (including the unblock request at AN that was later withdrawn, and the current discussion at AN). [[User:Carcharoth|Carcharoth]] ([[User talk:Carcharoth|talk]]) 01:12, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

:He should indeed have held his hands up and helped clean up the problem, but instead he chose to "vanish". I was one of those caught up in the aftermath of the [[Grace Sherwood]] TFA, and I will never forget being accused of engineering Rlevse's downfall because I'd copyedited the article without checking the sources. There's a great deal of dishonesty on display here. [[User:Malleus Fatuorum|Malleus]] [[User_talk:Malleus_Fatuorum|Fatuorum]] 04:29, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

== Great Dismal Swamp maroons ==

Did you read about the [[Great Dismal Swamp maroons]]? Do you agree that more articles like it - in terms of topic, depth, sourcing, relevance - should appear? --[[User:Gerda Arendt|Gerda Arendt]] ([[User talk:Gerda Arendt|talk]]) 07:29, 12 March 2012 (UTC)

:This is the second most loaded question I've ever seen. On my talk page.

:Assuming you've read my user page, you should have seen that I've written 20 FAs and some other shit. Some of the articles are about civil rights, African Americans in the US, including some about slavery. I have no reason to object to any article that is based on the absolute best reliable sources concerning notable topics, all of which comply with Wikipedia's highest standards. (Although your wording "should appear" leaves some questions: appear where? as what? and some speculation that magic may be involved...) But I also see that Rlevse has the second highest number of edits to this article, so do me a favor and just skip right to the point of your posting on my talk page. You've never asked my opinion about anything before and call me cynical, but I don't really think you care much about my opinion now. Prove me wrong if you wish. --[[User:Moni3|Moni3]] ([[User talk:Moni3#top|talk]]) 21:10, 14 March 2012 (UTC)

::Thanks for responding. Please understand that English is not my first language. What is a "loaded" question, for example? I rescued the article from the sandbox of PumpkinSky. It would have not appeared otherwise as long as he is blocked, but I decided it should appear on Wikipedia. I like your hint at magic! Assuming you've read my user page, you know that I would prefer to see PumpkinSky unblocked, write more articles like that and be able to face his Rlevse past (which I don't share). Did you read related thoughts, initiated by [[User talk:Geometry guy#Precious|Geometry guy]]? - I admire your FA contributions and just nominated a GA for the first time, learning, --[[User:Gerda Arendt|Gerda Arendt]] ([[User talk:Gerda Arendt|talk]]) 21:50, 14 March 2012 (UTC)
::While I was writing this, the GA passed, --[[User:Gerda Arendt|Gerda Arendt]] ([[User talk:Gerda Arendt|talk]]) 22:03, 14 March 2012 (UTC)
::<small>[[Loaded question]] is a question that makes assumptions or otherwise makes answering problematic. An example would be "Have you stopped kicking kittens?" - answering either "yes" or "no" would be interpreted to mean that you have previously kicked kittens, and thus the question assumes you are guilty of kitten abuse. [[User:Nikkimaria|Nikkimaria]] ([[User talk:Nikkimaria|talk]]) 02:30, 15 March 2012 (UTC)</small>

:::Thanks for explaining, Nikkimaria, also thanks for [[User talk:Nikkimaria#Afraid|pre-viewing]] the article before it appeared on DYK.
:::I didn't mean to "load", but keep things simple. Sorry, I didn't introduce myself, thinking that my user and my talk would do that for me. I asked 2 questions, the first one establishing the topic. I didn't know, Moni3, if you had been among the more than 8000 ones who had clicked that article already when I asked, nor did I know if you were familiar with its history. It looks to me as if the community of the readers is interested in this article, so is the group of people who helped to improve it (17 and I), approved it for [[Template:Did you know nominations/Great Dismal Swamp maroons|DYK]], cropped the pic for the Main page, reviewed it for GA (2 stepped forward as soon as I nominated). Then the second question, very simple logic: if you want more articles from a blocked editor, he needs to be unblocked. If you have the key you could silently unlock. We would as silently return to content creation and cleaning up Rlevse. April Fools' Day might be a good day to do so :) You mentioned magic, --[[User:Gerda Arendt|Gerda Arendt]] ([[User talk:Gerda Arendt|talk]]) 09:39, 15 March 2012 (UTC)

:::: This is problematic. Of the several thousand registered users working on Wikipedia, only maybe 150 to 200 of them produce content on a large scale, as in, write more than a paragraph that can be considered good sourced information. This creates a belabored minority of content producers, which I consider myself when I can edit, and which I am assuming Rlevse also considered himself, as he had 10 FAs to his name when he left.

::::The faulty logic here is that the thousands of registered users are helpless to write articles without me. Or Rlevse. Wikipedia does not stop because I don't check in every day. Nor does it stop because Rlevse is blocked. It certainly slows down and content does not get written because the majority of registered users think that someone else will write whatever needs to be written. Similar to [[diffusion of responsibility]]. Rlevse is incidental to this and my opinion about it. ''ALL'' Wikipedia's users need to shift their attitudes from waiting for good articles to be written by someone else to going to the library and taking that responsibility into their own hands.

::::So I don't want more articles written by a blocked user. I want better articles written by people who realize it is completely within their power to write them. Preferably users who focus on writing and discussing content instead of doing things that get them blocked, as nebulous as that may be at times. However, when a user gets blocked, retires, exercises his right to vanish, or whose life takes too much time from this site, others should pick up the slack. Every last Wikipedian should easily realize what a good reliable source is and how to construct an article. Then do it.

::::Lastly, this is more of a gray area here, and I hope I'm not about to open a can of worms when I cannot participate either to make it less a can of worms or make it worse, but here goes: admins are turnkeys, but many of them--and other Wikipedians--consider them to have power that goes hand in hand with identity. I'm confused by the recent assertion that I am responsible for Rlevse's block (hold on, don't get crazy yet) and that I am the only person standing in the way of his return. I repeat: I'm a turnkey. I blocked him as a matter of course because it was clear to me that he was abusing his right to vanish and using the PumpkinSky account as a sockpuppet to influence procedural discussions. It did not seem to me to be a controversial block; I was surprised I had to do it. Most admins are much quicker than I about this kind of thing. The community has no problem whatsoever arguing about blocks. In fact, instead of creating content most registered users seem to argue about blocks and other stuff I find painfully tedious. If the Wikipedia community disagrees with the block, overturn it. If that's the community's decision, then that's what it is. Turnkeys get overturned. I do not expect any decision of mine as an admin to go unquestioned or unchallenged. However, I believe this has been brought up twice at AN. The first attempt resulted in Rlevse abandoning it after some questions from me and other users. I haven't been able to respond to you quickly; you can see that I can't spend a lot of time here lately so I haven't seen if he has expressed any interest in returning. If he has, that needs to be discussed at AN. I don't consider it a light matter for an ex-arbitration committee member to abuse policies with such ease and so little conscience; this matter should be decided by the community, not by one person. If Rlevse has not asked to return, I don't know why we're talking about this. --[[User:Moni3|Moni3]] ([[User talk:Moni3#top|talk]]) 22:02, 16 March 2012 (UTC)
:::::Thank you for explaining your position in detail. You remember Rlevse, I am involved with PumpkinSky. I confess that I came to be afraid of AN, remember saying at one point: "I don't understand, not the language, not the spirit". At another point Geometry guy had reason to write what I framed on my user page. I fail to see the few people speaking up at AN as "the community", my idea of community are the [[User:PumpkinSky/Articles|readers]]. - I saw an appeal at your heart below, smiling. Couldn't you just assume good faith in an editor who served Wikipedia on 729 articles (see CCI), not flawless in terms of close paraphrasing but trying hard, sourcing well (see maroons article)? Ignore some rules, simply unblock him? He might return, I would hope so. As [[User:Wehwalt|Wehwalt]] put it: "Where is the risk?" --[[User:Gerda Arendt|Gerda Arendt]] ([[User talk:Gerda Arendt|talk]]) 06:23, 17 March 2012 (UTC)

::::::I've already explained myself pretty well, Gerda. Wehwalt may not see risks, but that doesn't surprise me. I'm sorry you don't like AN or ANI. I don't either, but no one is going to change it just for me, so if I care enough about something enough I have to go there.

::::::You didn't answer if Rlevse has expressed any interest in returning. I surely don't know why he would. Most days I don't want to come back here. --[[User:Moni3|Moni3]] ([[User talk:Moni3#top|talk]]) 14:35, 17 March 2012 (UTC)

:::::::I said [[#Losing an editor on Human rights|elsewhere]]: "I would like to do the opposite, not investigate a past, but set the tone for a future where the contributor who donates time and skill to this project is first of all treated as a human being, with decency and respect, and not some thing "serial plagiator"." - Wehwalt made my day today with [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:Wehwalt&diff=482414628&oldid=477175737 this edit]. - I learned one thing from Rlevse: Peace, --[[User:Gerda Arendt|Gerda Arendt]] ([[User talk:Gerda Arendt|talk]]) 20:15, 17 March 2012 (UTC)

== [[Maya Angelou]] ==

Hi Moni, I know you're busy, but I think that I can ask you this HUGE favor. I've finally, after four years, gotten this article about this wonderful person and writer, I believe, comprehensive enough. It's been, as you know, a huge undertaking, because unlike the articles you write about important things like Florida swamps, I've been mostly alone in my endeavors. ;) Which is fine, because perhaps you didn't know this about me, but I'm a control freak who avoids conflict at all cost. Plus, you're a good egg and you've helped me before. Would you mind taking a look at Dr. Angelou's article so I can submit it to FAC? I know, it's huge, but one of my issues with it is if it should remain huge or get forked, he he. I even made a list for potential copyeditors: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Maya_Angelou#Article_milestone]. I'd appreciate it if you took the time. Thanks. [[User:Figureskatingfan|Christine (Figureskatingfan)]] ([[User talk:Figureskatingfan|talk]]) 22:16, 15 March 2012 (UTC)

: Maya Angelou, as I'm sure you know, is a completely worthy topic. Certainly no less important than the Everglades. Unless, of course, you're drinking fresh water in South Florida--then the Everglades may be a tiny bit more important...

: At any rate, I really wish I had the time to read the article and give you my feedback. I simply don't right now and I'm very sorry about it because I'm sure Angelou's article deserves to be as awesome as you make it. If I spend 30 minutes on Wikipedia over the next several days, I'll be surprised. A thorough copy edit takes hours. I feel bad about this. --[[User:Moni3|Moni3]] ([[User talk:Moni3#top|talk]]) 22:05, 16 March 2012 (UTC)
::What, you're letting your rich and full life get in the way of editing WP? And there's a saying here: "Ugh, that's [[Moscow, Idaho|Moscow]] water for you", 'cause it tastes nasty with all the additives in this liberal bastion in the northern part of this red state. I understand. How about instead of a lengthy copyedit, you take 20 minutes reading it and then answering the two most compelling questions I'd like answered regarding this article: Is it too long, or does the current length warrant its length; and if it's too long, what sections should be separated into new articles? I'd greatly appreciate it if you could do that much, but if you can't do that, I'd still understand. [[User:Figureskatingfan|Christine (Figureskatingfan)]] ([[User talk:Figureskatingfan|talk]]) 17:48, 17 March 2012 (UTC)

:::Hi there Christine. I know a very good copy editor - he's a professional copy editor and I believe that he does have the gift of words. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Ryanwould] [[User:Gandydancer|Gandydancer]] ([[User talk:Gandydancer|talk]]) 19:03, 17 March 2012 (UTC)
::::Gandy, thanks so much! I knew that the WP community would come through for me. I'm going to ask Ryan straight away. [[User:Figureskatingfan|Christine (Figureskatingfan)]] ([[User talk:Figureskatingfan|talk]]) 19:46, 17 March 2012 (UTC)

== Help please ==

Moni, could you please take a look at the [[Great Dismal Swamp maroons]] article? Please take a look at the talk page re my edit about caps for "maroons". I come to you because in my experience you are not only very intelligent but you have a good heart as well. I furnished a few links that offer info re whether to use caps for maroon - or not. Of course, I realize that we all have a limited amount of energy and time and this may not be something that you have interest or time to be involved in. As for me, once and awhile I draw my line in the sands of Wikipedia...and this is one of those times. [[User:Gandydancer|Gandydancer]] ([[User talk:Gandydancer|talk]]) 18:38, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

: Gracious, appeals to my intelligence *and* morality. How could I resist?

: Rather simply, I'm afraid. I read the talk page. That's the best place to hash it out. I'm afraid I don't have access to sources and cannot get access to sources to resolve this in a timely manner. --[[User:Moni3|Moni3]] ([[User talk:Moni3#top|talk]]) 22:08, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

::Thanks. I'm an optimist by nature and I always forget that everything here can get so complicated... I remain unsatisfied with the situation but it seems that a lot of argument has gone on in the past and they are all sick of it - which I can understand because I get sick of endless discussions too. BTW, be assured that I was not just trying to butter you up or doing a "That's a very pretty dress, Mrs. Clever". I have been watching your talk page for years off and on. I've dropped others that I watch, but I've always kept yours. You really are a remarkable person.

::Remember way back when I asked you about a Slim Whitman clip for the [[yodeling]] article? I finished the article and I really like it. I read it once and a while and it always cheers me up. [[User:Gandydancer|Gandydancer]] ([[User talk:Gandydancer|talk]]) 19:30, 17 March 2012 (UTC)

::Oh! BTW, I'm not asking for a clip! I found a lot of free music for the article and it's not needed. [[User:Gandydancer|Gandydancer]] ([[User talk:Gandydancer|talk]]) 13:58, 18 March 2012 (UTC)

==Mulholland drive plot==
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Mulholland_Drive_%28film%29 take a look here for discussion thanks. --[[User:JTBX|JTBX]] ([[User talk:JTBX|talk]]) 11:03, 18 March 2012 (UTC)

Revision as of 19:38, 18 March 2012

SEMI-RETIRED
This user is no longer very active on Wikipedia.



The thing that makes you exceptional, if you are at all, is inevitably that which must also make you lonely.
—Lorraine Hansberry


Hate to break it to you, but that's how Wikipedia is run. If an article doesn't adhere to guidelines, it's redirected or deleted. We've given you a chance to save the ones worth saving. Don't like it, the door's wide open, you can exit anytime. Rusted AutoParts (talk) 1:17 27 October 2011 (UTC)

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