Talk:Estuary English

academics

This page really needs a section discussing how Estuary English is not universally accepted among academics. Some deny it completely, whereas others think it's misrepresented. My own tutor believes acceptance of the term is much more common amongst younger lecturers/tutors than older ones. Spuderoony 11:11, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

And since the younger tutors are likely more in touch with the language changes occuring in our society right now, they're more likely to be right, no? It may not be a unified entity, but it certainly exists as the broad set of trends which are noted in this article. BovineBeast 00:49, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

The more I read about estuary English the more i think it doesn't exist at least not in the way some try to explain it. The only possible use the term has IMO is as shorthand for the attempts at what they see as a more working class accent by celebrities and middle-class people faking it.

But if it's to be used to stand for a dialect/accent spoken unselfconsciously by average working-class people in South-eastern England half of the marker's I've seen mentioned to define it are don't in actuality exist. Non-pronuniciation of the 'h' at the beginning of words and the full glottal stop are from my knowledge (someone who grew up amongst working class people in the south east (20-30 miles from central London))as common in those people's speech as in full-on Cockney. Whilst the 'estuary' idea is that the 'h' is pronounced and there's sort of a semi-glottal stop.That from my personal experience is plain wrong. But if we're talking the language of minor-royals, MP's and pop stars slumming it yes the fake demotic they use WOULD include initial 'hs and weird sort of glottal stop. But in that case the term 'Estuary English' shouldn't be used for the genuine accent of the region and should if it's used at all remain solely a description for the modern affectation spoken by those I've mentioned above. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.135.152.123 (talk) 17:32, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

popular

"It is popular in English society because it helps to neutralize social differences."

By making everyone sound like complete morons!

yeh, bu' wha' ya gunna do abou' i'?

No, that's more like cockney, Estuary is not as harsh as cockney English. Angryafghan 16:48, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

More like "yeah, bu' wha' you gonn'doo bout i'h?". Estuary CAN be quite harsh the closer you get. It's barely noticeable in, say, Colchester, but in Vange/Kingsway (Basildon) or Leigh-on-Sea/Westcliff/York Rd (Southend-on-Sea) people DO actually sound like that.☭ cmn ☭ ( ❝❞ /✍ ) 17:58, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

I think somebody needs to make it clear just how stupid people sound when they speak like this

I don't think you know what Estuary English is. Angryafghan 16:48, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

It's Chavspeak!

There is nothing inherently wrong or inferior about Estuary English. Any such impressions are purely the result of prejudice assumptions made by the listener. --86.135.68.101 12:36, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

---

Not a Uniform Dialect

I think it's important to note that "Estuary English" (pronounced Esh-choo-ree in Estuary) is not a single uniform dialect and there are different variations used by different people, depending on both geographical differences and social class, I don't know of any reliable sources to qualify anything written about Estuary English but most of the information is based on observation and based on my own observations I've found that some people "adopt" Estuary in conversations while others speak it naturally, but on different levels, some people sound more similar to Cockney when speaking it while others are closer to RP. Angryafghan 19:34, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

A pet hate of mine is the use of the expression "Home Counties" accent to mean something used by the middle or upper middle class and verging on RP. This is no more the "dialect" of the Home Counties than it is anywhere else...at least half (?) of those living in the Home Counties would be working or lower middle class and speak in an Estuary or similar accent...and as is often the case in Home Counties towns these are likely to be the "real" natives to the particular town where they live. As they say if you want to find the original inhabitants in a south eastern locality look on the council estates. The south-eastern working or lower middle-class... surely the most downtrodden,ignored sector of English society? (and probably at least about 10 million strong) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.42.196.73 (talk) 23:24, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Why Parklife?

Am I missing something, or is this article totally unrelated to Parklife?

Your right.

Correction - You are (or You're) right.

What an enlightening conversation.

chavspeak?

I think it's clear that many people, especially people who don't live in areas that speak estuary have a very biased view regarding the way we speak, I'm just as much a chav-hater as the rest of polite society but I also speak in an incredibly thick estuary accent/dialect, I'm not ignorant of how to speak RP and can do so if the social circumstance require it, though I prefer not to. It also does not mean I sound like a moron, for if estuary 'sounds' low-intelligence then by that logic so does every non-standard accent or dialect of the language, but we never hear people say the welsh dialect sounds moronic, or the brummie accent sounds moronic do we? Also I must raise a question - who exactly says that estuary is 'clear as mud and flows freely'? I'd assume probably only the person who added that to the article. Seek100 02:06, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

I'm in complete agreement. Frankly, the majority of people who say it sounds 'stupid' are middle-class people with some kind of superiority complex. Estuary English is my native dialect and I'd appreciate it if people didn't denigrate it as if it was some kind of inferior one. Ask any linguist and they'll tell you that no dialect is 'better' than another. Estuary English is just as fit for purpose as any other dialect. BovineBeast 00:47, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

I'm in cautious agreement. My natural accent is Estuary or Cockney but as I now live in NZ I speak RP because people understand me better. When I'm back home, I go back to Estuary. Language is about communication, therefore a good accent is one that communicates clearly. Also, a lot of middle class people speak with an Estuary accent so it's not a class thing either. And was the chav hating comment really necessary? 125.239.207.41 04:16, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Promoting Equality?

although i do not adopt "estuary english" in any situation, i do think that those who speak it naturally are seen as more equal because it is people from a wider range of social backgrounds which use this dialect rather than the traditional received pronouciation which is now more associated with the upper classes, and also northerners cant say that all southerners talk like posh toffs anymore, if anything they have been outdone because estuary english is a much less attractive accent than some northern accents - Angryafghan 16:51, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

I think that northerners are a bit muddled about this. On the one hand they talk about a "southern accent" meaning a "posh accent". On the other hand they would never claim that cockneys "spoke posh". Ask someone from the north how a Millwall supporter speaks, and he's hardly likely to reply "posh". But they would not deny that Millwall is in the south. Bill Tegner 22:42, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Then there is the phenomenon of certain Northern English modes of pronunciation being more close to RP than Estuary (ie the demotic of the South eastern working classes). IE the way people from Yorkshire etc would say "computer" with a well enunciated "com" when someone speaking estuary would say "c'mputer. Similarly until reason Yorkshire/lancs person would have been closer to RP in relation to glottal stops than non-middle class south easterners. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.42.196.189 (talk) 21:43, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

"face" as [aɪ]?

I think the diphthong in "face" is not [ʌɪ] but [aɪ]. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 202.161.26.139 (talk • contribs) .

You'll need some evidence to back that up. Wells says that the "face" diphthong can be [ɛɪ], [ɐɪ], [ʌɪ], or [æɪ], but I've never seen any source that's said it's [aɪ]. --Lazar Taxon 23:54, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

[aɪ] for /eɪ/ would be more Aussie. If you look at this chart, you'll see what I mean. They transcribe it as /æɪ/, but the phonetic reality is more like a fully front, fully open [a] onset (as you can see on the chart), giving [aɪ]. Thegryseone (talk) 23:17, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

Social Implications of Estuary English

I believe this article may benefit a little from the social class aspects of estuary english? If there is any agreement here on the matter I shall go ahead and write up a section? But I thought I'd double check first as it may not nessessarily be to everyones taste? --WikipedianProlific^(Talk) 22:11, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Use of The Glottal Stop

This article states: (but never as a glottal stop between vowels, as in Cockney or in southern dialects, e.g. "water"). First I should point out that the main article on the "Glottal Stop" contradicts the last part of the sentence, I would also like to point out that I live in Essex and am surrounded by people who pronounce "water" /wɔːʔə/ with a glottal stop and unpronounced "r". Angryafghan 16:45, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

spread to North Britain (removed)

Removed following:

Estuary English definitely is on the rise, arguably replacing old standard dialects such as Scouse even in the North of Great Britain.[1] This is contradicted by [2] and [3] which see it as a Southern phenomenon.

It is not clear that this is the case, and the inclusion of contradictory media links seems to be original research. -- Chris Q 08:39, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

I would say as a matter of opinion (due to lack of research into the accent) that EE is restricted to the south east, particularly in Essex, which could be the centre of the accent, in counties further out such as Norfolk and Kent only certain aspects can be heard. Nevertheless it is without a doubt a real accent and rapidly replacing the traditional old essex accent, which sounds slightly like an East Anglian accent though not as pronounced and of course the dialect is absent. Angryafghan 16:51, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

since when is norfolk in the south east...its as much part of the north as the south east! ie not in either —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.254.173.35 (talk) 12:44, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Why the use of the term North Britain - North Britain is Scotland but this obviously means Northern England (which isnt really north Britain). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.42.196.189 (talk) 21:35, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Moved from article

(Estuary English) "uses words from American English and Australian English."

The citation was requested almost three months ago([4]). --194.145.161.227 00:17, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Australian Interrogative

I'm no linguistic expert, but I think there's an aspect of Estuary called "the Australian interrogative", which involves stressing the final words of a statement and seeming to phrase it like a question. Any comment? Bill Tegner 22:48, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

The Australian speech 'pattern' you refer to, the raising of the voice at the end of a sentence has long been a characteristic of many teenage Australians and related more to shyness or hesitancy. Some adult Australians slip into this pattern when stressed, for example when suddenly interviewed by a film crew, or when talking on the phone in a stressful situation. It may sound like an interrogative but is more of a 'developmental' phase that many, but not all young Australians go through, like acne!! --MichaelGG 05:54, 16 August 2007 (UTC) Brisbane.

Timescale

Has anyone an idea when the phrase "Estuary Accent" was first used? Bill Tegner 22:48, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

broad A

"A broad A in words such as bath, grass, laugh, etc". Is it supposed to mean ash? agnus 18:36, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

No, it's the open back unrounded vowel IPA: ɑː LDHan 19:04, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

How could this be cited as one of the features of Estuary English and its features distinct from IPA? The broad A has always been standard for such words in IPA.

I don't think it says that it's distinct from RP (I think you mean Received Pronunciation not International Phonetic Alphabet), but rather that rural working class accents in the south east did not have the "broad A" until relatively recently. LDHan 00:18, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

I grew up in Newcastle on Tyne, and of course we pronounced 'grass' and 'path' with the short unrounded a. To us, Southerners were saying "Graahrs" and "Paahrth". To elaborate on this: to a Geordie grass rhymes with hat rhymes with path rhymes with flat. However listening to Prince Harry on TV recently, his a's would have done any young man in Sunderland or Gateshead proud!--MichaelGG 05:59, 16 August 2007 (UTC) I've lived in the north (Yorks and Lancs) for many years now but still speak with a broad estuary accent and have noticed that Northerners tend not to be able to do the long "a" like a working class south easterner. Two Northern girlfriends of mine adnmitted this...if they tried they ended up speaking the "a" (in grass etc)in the over enunciated way of the south-eastern upper middle class...a sound completely different than the long "a" of the estuary speaker or Cockney.It's very difficult to describe the difference in the written word but very obvious if you hear it.

The use of the word "southerners"by Michael G above is a bit misleading...I presume he means the long "a" as spoken by people from the south east as people from the south west who retain the true West Country accent dont say words like grass, castle or bath with a long "a" but with an "a" sound different from both the south east or north but nearer to the short "a" of the latter. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.42.196.73 (talk) 23:17, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

The Diphthong in "Coat"

Can the diphthong in the word "coat" be realized as [ʌʊ] in Estuary English? 208.104.45.20 (talk) 06:54, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Bad-lad Split

Is there a bad-lad split in Estuary English? 208.104.45.20 (talk) 02:22, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

no -- Q Chris (talk) 10:31, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

England

I've noticed that the way English people pronounce, well, England, is different from the way Americans pronounce it. How would the English pronunciation be written phonetically? 208.104.45.20 (talk) 03:58, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

I have no clue what difference you are having in mind, but might it be that (some?) Americans (sometimes?) pronounce England without the [g], i. e., [ˈʔɪŋlənd] instead of [ˈʔɪŋglənd]? Wiktionary, however, does not mention any such difference, nor any other. Merriam-Webster lists both pronunciation variants, but does not attribute the difference to regional variation – in fact, it does not explain nor even comment on the difference at all. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 23:09, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

Sound files?

Some sound files comparing Estuary English to Received Pronunciation would be very welcome. - Jmabel | Talk 22:38, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

If you want sound files go here or here. There might be some examples on the first Web site. Click on "Dorset" in the second Web site I gave you, then click on "Skater Talk" or "Harry's Words". I would just call it "Southeastern English". I realize Dorset is in the southwest of England, but who knows if those two guys are actually from there. I'm pretty sure Harry isn't because he's "at uni". However, I assure you that the way these two guys speak is what people mean when they use the term "Estuary English". Thegryseone (talk) 00:29, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. I am interested for myself, but mostly felt that they'd be an improvement to the article. - Jmabel | Talk 04:09, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Broad A

I've removed the following passage: "This [broad A] is often seen as the litmus test of a South East accent, but it has only spread to rural areas of the South East in the last forty years.". It is uncited. Wells, writing in 1982, said Accents of English, p. 335: "In a broad local accent of the south ... glass is [glɑ:s ~ gla:s]". The map on the next page shows that he considers this to apply to all parts of England that would be considered to belong to "the South East". Google Books link.

Grover cleveland (talk) 06:39, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

ORIGINS OF THE PHRASE "ESTUARY ENGLISH" It would be interesting for someone to do some research to trace the genuine origins of the rather pompous phrase "Estuary English". As I remember it, the starting point was the word "Strine", which is the Australian accent, its title being derived (obviously) from the fact that Australian is pronounced 'Strine by Australians. This is such a brilliant word that jealous English folk wanted to have a similar word for their accent, particularly the accent of South East England (SEE). SEE is so totally dominant in the UK that other regions call the BBC News the SEE News, and the accent might well have been dubbed SEE-lingus or c----lingus. Instead, a would-be wit did a bit of reverse engineering and invented the English version of Strine, which he dubbed "Estuarine" and tried to link, rather weakly, to the Thames Estuary. Some pedants, failing to see the joke, then expanded this to "Estuary English" and have tried to make an academic subject out of it. I do not have the references to cite for this sequence, but it is undoubtedly the way it happened. A researcher looking for the facts could find them in the Daily Telegraph/Times/Daily Mail/Spectator without having to dig any deeper, I'm sure.

As for the "Australian Interrogative", has no one ever travelled into our heathen backwoods of East Lothian or Fife? In those districts, every statement is pitched as a question, usually ending unnecessarily in "ken?" or "eh?".Thistlejacket (talk) 10:36, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

What funny discussions. The made-up joke word "Strine" was in the title of a humour book "Let Stalk Strine", and since its publication the term "strine" is occasionally used as a humourous name to describe the Broad Australian accent (never the much more common General Australian accent.) I guess by "Australian Interrogative" you and the commenter above mean High Rising Terminal? It is not really Australian. The claim in the UK that younger UK speakers started speaking like that due to the influence of Australian soap operas seems very faulty by the way and has no references. See the comments on that page (those "younger" UK Neighbours viewers will now be in their early 40s. Are they still speaking with a High Rising Terminal these days? Also, Australian television has been consistently dominated by US TV programs since 1956, but Australians still aren't speaking with American accents.) Format (talk) 19:33, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

What is RP?

As in 'it may eventually replace RP'? Jandrews23jandrews23 (talk) 20:23, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

Received Pronunciation. Thegryseone (talk) 21:04, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

The Queen "has shifted her accent slightly towards what is called Estuary"

I've remove this sentence from the article: Australian scientists have found, in researching Queen Elizabeth's anniversary speeches that even she has shifted her accent slightly towards what is called Estuary.

The sources cited: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/1080228.stm http://www.guardian.co.uk/print/0,3858,4108610-103690,00.html do not make any such claim. All they say is that the "Queen's accent is moving towards the standard accent of southern England, away from the cut-glass "upper-crust" accent of the 1950s". The "standard accent of southern England" here is middle class speech not Estuary English, i.e. she has moved towards standard RP from "marked" (old fashioned) RP. 92.40.136.224 (talk) 13:16, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

And whats "Southern English" (don't you mean SOUTH EASTERN english) because the dialect spoken in the south west is hardly similar - or is this just another example of the arrogance towards the rest of the country of which many accuse us from London/the South East of?

And in addition to that i agree wit the above poster when he or she says the idea of the queen speaking estuary is crap she just speaks a slightly less extreme RP. in the south east the working/lower middle class generally speak an estuary type accent whilst the rest (middle-middle class upwards speak that which replaced RP as do the middle-middle upper middle classes from the rest of England with maybe a short 'a' in Yorkshire for instance to slightly differentiate certain parts of the country).This mode of speach having precisely nothing to do with an article on Estuary English. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.162.91.91 (talk) 21:06, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

Give me a break. "Shifting one's accent slightly towards what is called Estuary" (actually, only her vowels have been demonstrated to shift in the Estuary direction) does not mean the same as "talks Estuary" at all. If she's shifting away from RP, she can very well shift towards (not into) EE at the same time, and in fact that is exactly what was found: the "standard accent of southern England" is not Estuary English, but intermediate between RP and EE, so the contradiction you are reading into this is not there. Here's a dime, go buy a clue. Get some bloody reading comprehension. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 23:26, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

Estuary and RP

For non-English readers, this article would be immensely more informative if it would be better structured. At the moment, it reads very much like a random list of aspects found in Estuary English, while a systematic comparison between RP and Estuary would make it understandable to all of those who aren't from the London area.Jeppiz (talk) 14:03, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

Three Two issues

T glottalisation

The article states the pronunciation of water as wa'er is common in EE. However, I think for EE this trait is generally limited to final t is words like not, with medial t glottalisation being largely confined to the London working class.

If you mean RP, then you are right. If you mean EE, you are wrong, at least according to T-glottalization. Intervocalic (medial) glottalisation is a feature that's excluded from RP only, and final glottalisation is even possible in RP these days. Cockney features are apparently on their way up and have progressed farther than you (and seemingly, many other people) are aware, or willing to admit. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 23:59, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

Tag questions

I thought these were standard English. My first class teacher at grammar school, whose pronunciation was distinctly RP, devoted quite some time to getting them right, telling us it would be rather impolite if you left them out. Even a textbook from the 1950s I consulted included tag questions. So I think they are perfectly acceptable in RP. Steinbach (talk) 11:02, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

I've found out what the problem was: the person who inserted the point did not understand what "confrontational question tags" are, or at least provided wrong examples. I've removed them and added a link to explain what is really meant here. It's exactly about not getting them "right", but intentionally employing "inappropriate" (asymmetrical, nonstandard) ones. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 23:47, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

Vowels

There used to be a description of the vowel pronunciations in this article, but it was deleted, apparently by its originator. That's quite unfortunate as a source was given for the data. Now there is nothing about the (phonetic) vowel realisations left. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 00:47, 14 May 2012 (UTC)