Talk:Kurdish separatism in Iran

Article name

After the somehow inconstructive edits by Kermanshani, i think nevertheless there is a point to rename this article into "Kurdish separatism in Iran" per WP:COMMONNAME. According to Habeeb et.al.:

Although there is a long history of Kurdish Separatism in Iran, just as there is in Iran and Turkey, Kurdish society is tribal in structure and the competing tribes have had a difficult time unifying. Neither the Shah's government nor the current Islamic Republic has been willing to grant Kurds autonomy, and both have viewed the Kurds as potential source of rebellion.

Is there any opposition to such a move?Greyshark09 (talk) 21:38, 4 August 2012 (UTC)

 DoneGreyshark09 (talk) 20:54, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

First of all I would like to note that there is absolutely no evidence that Simko Shakik wanted to establish an independent Kurdish state. During his rebellion against the Iranian monarchy he expanded his control far outside of Kurdistan and was marching on the capital before he was defeated. Had he won, it's more likely that he would have become Shah of Iran. More dubious however do I find the way you handled the Republic of Mahabad in this article. Just a simple click on Republic of Mahabad would have revealed the very first sentence of the article: "The Republic of Mahabad (Kurdish: Komarî Mehabad/کۆماری مەھاباد, Persian: جمهوری مهاباد ), officially known as Republic of Kurdistan and established in Iranian Kurdistan, was a short-lived, Kurdish government that sought Kurdish autonomy within the limits of the Iranian state.[1]" - meanwhile in here you write that "a separatist attempt of Barzani to establish the independent Republic of Mahabad in Iranian Kurdistan...failed with military victory of the Iranian forces and the state was abolished." This seems to be purposely aimed at misleading the reader, by not mentioning the Soviet occupation, not mentioning the fact that they established a communist government in Mahabad and saying this government declared independence from Iran which is simply not true. The word autonomy is not mentioned in regards to the Republic of Mahabad at all in this article. Also, the PJAK is not a seperatist organization, as can be seen from this Interview with one of their top leaders: "Are you speaking of creating an independent Kurdish state? - What we are talking about now is not the changing of borders or the replacing of flags but creating an all-inclusive Iran." " Do you seek a structure of parallel government for Kurds in Iran comparable to the Kurdistan Regional Government in Iraq? - Not at all. We would prefer to have much more participation in a democratized central government." Also I would like to see a source about KDP-I or Komalah being seperatist groups. Please can you provide a source in which Simko Sakik, Qazi Mohammad, or any leader of the PJAK, KDP-I or Komalah is quoted as saying their objective is to secede from the Iranian state?Kermanshahi (talk) 08:06, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

Well, since you charged me of a deliberate "misinformation of the reader", i would like to emphasize i'm fully neutral on this issue (of course you can choose not believing me, but that is up to you). It interests me purely from historic sense, and your charges of "deliberate" or "POV" stance are hence illogical to me. Nevertheless, i appreciate your wikipedian contributions and would like your cooperation with this and other Kurdish and Iranian-related articles. This article is pretty much a recent development from a stub, so your contributions are more needed than criticism. Here are my answers to your questions:

Regarding the aims of Simqo, you might be right he had no intention to create a state specifically in Iranian Kurdistan, but it is nevertheless a clear separatist attempt (seen several sources mentioning that, and i can bring quotes, including those below). I think discussion of sources can resolve this dilemma.

Regarding Iranian crisis of 1946, of course more info should be added, and Soviet support for separatist Mahabad and Iranian Azerbaijan should be mentioned. However, from Iranian point of view it doesn't matter how those client Soviet States called themselves, what matters is that they were seen as breakaway attempts and crashed with no mercy.

PJAK is often mentioned as a separatist movement, see [1], [2], [3]; Iranian official source [4]; academic review [5].

KDP-I's intentions to gain independence are mentioned in this academic essay: THE ARAB SPRING, ITS EFFECTS ON THE KURDS, AND THE APPROACHES OF TURKEY, IRAN, SYRIA, AND IRAQ ON THE KURDISH ISSUE; this article on Kurdish separatism also includes KDP-I struggle against Iran Land and Rebellion - Kurdish Separatism in Comparative Perspective.

Hope this sutiisfies, though in any case i do intend to supply citations and corrections to all raised issues.Greyshark09 (talk) 09:54, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

This does not satisfy, I want to see sources. Almost all references you gave in the article are not links (and thus almost impossible to verify), furthermore you have yet to provide 1 quote from either Sheikh Simko, Qazi Mohammad or Haji Ahmadi about being separatist or wanting to secede from Iran. Even if certain media sources refer to PJAK as separatism, the fact that they do not denounce separatism themselves would make the title at very least POV and disputable. The Republic of Mahabad had in it's goals autonomy from the Iranian state and never declared independence (unlike Palestine, Kosova), yet you insist to refer to it as an attempt to create an "independent" republic, although this is clearly not true, because they DID NOT declare independence and you have not 1 source to back this up, because it did not happen. Saying that "hey were seen as breakaway attempts and crashed with no mercy" is not a good argument, the Shah crashed any political dissident with no mercy and being politically active against a government or being the target of a government crackdown does not make you are separatist. These simply do not have the same meaning.Kermanshahi (talk) 22:53, 14 September 2012 (UTC)

I think you are going too much into semantics. The sources i provided are all available online - this is where i searched them at (i will perhaps add links in the future, but wikipedia policy doesn't require to link them). There is an entire article i have already mentioned where all struggles are described as part of the Kurdish separatist straggle - Land and Rebellion - Kurdish Separatism in Comparative Perspective.

If most sources relate to PJAK as separatist - this is what the article should mention. Per WP:NPOV, we can also mention sources which claim the opposite, but i have seen practically none. Please provide some, to support your point.

Reliable sources say Mahabad did decalre independence, and it is pretty much redundant to claim a declared "Republic" or "nation-state" is not a separatist attempt for independence. Here is one source for example [6]:

Seeing a window of opportunity, the newly-formed Komala-i Jiyanawi Kurdistan (The Committee for the Revival of Kurdistan - Komala), a predominantly middle class democratic nationalist party, began to negotiate with the occupying Soviets with the idea of creating a Soviet-sponsored Kurdish republic, independent of Iranian control... As the people of Iranian Azarbaijan moved towards their own neighboring Soviet-sponsored state, Qazi Muhammad was elected the first Kurdish president and on 22 January 1946 the Mahabad Republic was born.

Regarding "crush with no mercy" - you can change the sentence per your opinion for a more proper one, i don't mind.Greyshark09 (talk) 21:31, 15 September 2012 (UTC)

• Comment - we cannot hold both a rename procedure and a merger procedure, thus since this one is not yet official, i hold it until the merger procedure below is complete. It is not possible simultaneously vote for merger or renaming.Greyshark09 (talk) 11:09, 4 November 2012 (UTC)

Merger

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Now this article, who's name is 100% incorrect since not 1 party mentioned in the article is a confirmed seperatist (and there are no sources in existance with Simko, Qazi Muhammad or any leader of the KDP-I, Komalah or PJAK saying he wants to secede from Iran), also is a gross misrepresentation of history. As you take several events that happened over various different parts of history than add an infobox and pretend this was somehow 1 long war. It wasn't. Instead this article should be called "History of Kurds in Iran" and then cover this. However the history of Kurds in Iran is largely already covered in the article Iranian Kurdistan. This article is almost the same as the Iranian Kurdistan except and infobox has been added to it. I suggest either we change this into a history article, or merge it into the Iranian Kurdistan and expand that with a few more sections.Kermanshahi (talk) 22:24, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose - the article is relying on WP:RS to describe a notable long going conflict in Western Iran, which is widely described as "Kurdish separatism", lasting from early 20th century. Here are several academic sources on this:

"There is a long history of tension between the Kurds and the government in Iran. This began with Reza Shah Pahlavi recapturing the lands that Kurdish leaders had gained control of between 1918 and 1922..."; "When Iraqi forces left Kurdistan to the Kurds, its territory became a base for Kurdish separatists in the region..." [7]

"Ismail Agha Simqu, head of the Abdui Shikak tribe, attempted between 1918 and 1922 to build a tribal alliance in support of independence as post‐war chaos left the country with no central rule maker..." Land and Rebellion - Kurdish Separatism in Comparative Perspective

"The Mahabad Republic stands as the high point of the Kurdish nationalist movement." [8]

"Although there is a long history of Kurdish separatism in Iran - just as there is in Iraq and Turkey..." William Mark Habeeb, Rafael D. Frankel, Mina Al-Oraibi. The Middle East in Turmoil: Conflict, Revolution, and Change. ABC-CLIO publishing. P.46. [9]

Unfortunately, user Kermanshani is stubborn to erase this article and not to continue the discussion we had begun and without choice we are turning to this merger procedire for a properly referenced, notable article, maybe due to WP:IDONTLIKEIT.Greyshark09 (talk) 07:13, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

None of that points to 1 solid conflict that lasted from 1918 to present. Such thing never existed. Also, despite labels such as "separatism" being thrown around freely by Western sources, you have yet to provide 1 piece of evidence that Shakik or Qazi Mohammad or any of the other "seperatists" wanted to secede from Iran. Yes, you've got some Western sources which throw the term around, but where are your quotes? Truly if any of these people wanted to secede from Iran, you would be able to find 1 source with a statement from just 1 of these people saying so? If not, than making a "Kurdish separatism in Iran" article is inappropriate. Also, this article is not properly referenced at all, there are hardly any references. If anything, this article is comparable to the Kurdish rebellions article (about Kurds in Turkey), which very notably does not use the word separatism at all, and neither does it attempt to portray these various tribal rebellions as 1 solid "ongoing" war.Kermanshahi (talk) 17:04, 5 October 2012 (UTC)

@Kermanshani, i don't want to be technical, but you need to avoid bolding within your arguments - this is against WP policies. Thanks.Greyshark09 (talk) 09:40, 7 October 2012 (UTC)

There is nothing wrong with putting multiple events in the context of a bigger one. See for example War on Terror. However the problem with this article is that it takes a lot of completely unrelated events and presents them as one very long event. The War on Terror has two clear sides that are at war with each other with a clear goal: namely the US and allies vs Islamic extremist. This article however takes so many different parties that it becomes unclear what the link is between these events. The first 5 Kurdish rebellions tried to create an independent Kurdish state while the KDPI and the recent PJAK are only seeking autonomy within Iran. Not to mention the fact that Iran itself has had its revolution. This makes it very hard to link the events with each other. Reading this article again like it's the first time it's very vague what is being explained. The infobox itself is unnavigable. I suggest we turn this article into History of Kurds in Iran so we can include so more information and turn in into a proper article ~ Zirguezi 11:02, 7 October 2012 (UTC)

This article is not putting "multiple events in the contest of the bigger one" (which can be SYNTH. On the contrary - this article is based on the academic approach, reflected by several academic works on Kurdish militancy in Iran, which is referred as "Kurdish separatism", "Kurdish-Iranian conflict" or the "Kurdish issue" - see for example Land and Rebellion - Kurdish Separatism in Comparative Perspective. There are many more sources on this topic.Greyshark09 (talk) 21:20, 8 October 2012 (UTC)

• Indeed we could call this article "Kurdish militancy in Iran" and make it about various Kurdish armed factions which have existed. But These are indeed a series of unrelated events and the one thing Zirguezi was wrong about in his post is that "The first 5 Kurdish rebellions tried to create an independent Kurdish state" which there is no evidence of. You have yet to provide 1 document of proof that either Simko Shakik or Qazi Muhammad had any intention whatsoever of seceding from Iran. One was an old conflict between rebellious tribes and the crown, the other was an attempt by the Soviet Union to create Communist zone within Iran (but neither Azerbaijan or Mahabad ever tried to secede). This is all to vague. And as I will repeat again, just because some anti-Iranian journalist in the West calls someone a separatist doesn't mean it's true. I want quotes, I want proof. Do you have any? Do you have anything on Simko that paints him as any kind of Kurdish nationalist (leave alone separatist) at all? Because this guy was marching to Tehran with an army to topple the Iranian government. Reza Shah overthrew Qajars, does that make him a Mazandarani separatist? Just putting a blanket "separatist" label on every single Kurd which opposed/opposes the Imperial/Islamic regime of Iran, does not seem like nPOV to me.Kermanshahi (talk) 20:02, 10 October 2012 (UTC)
  • I could settle with "Kurdish militancy in Iran", however take in mind that this is not WP:COMMONNAME (only two sources mention this term [10]), so some one might rename the article back (there are 2,110 sources on "Kurdish separatism in Iran", many of which academic). Please don't delete sources on Kurdish separatism, especially academic ones - there is a clear approach on this issue by historians. Even if you are correct and Kurds strive just for an autonomy, it is still a separatism - just like in Iraq and Turkey.Greyshark09 (talk) 21:51, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

• • It isn't separatism if they don't want to secede for Iran. +There is no evidence that Simko want to establish an autonomous Kurdish entity either. Qazi Muhammad wanted autonomy, PJAK wants not autonomy for Kurds but federal state of Iran. But both PJAK and KDP-I are mainly anti-regime groups, neither of them strive for separatism. Now there may be American sources which mention "Kurdish separatism in Iran," however, since nothing in this article is related to Kurdish SEPARATISM, the name is incorrect for this article. Also, when talking about Iraq and Turkey, we do not have articles called "Kurdish separatism in Turkey" and even if there was, there have been actual attempts to declare independence from these states such Ararat Republic or Kingdom of Kurdistan and the PKK cited Kurdish independence as their goal from 1984-1993 when they said they would be willing to settle for autonomy if the Turkish government would be prepared to make peace with them. When it comes to Simko Shakik, Qazi Muhammed, the KDP-I and PJAK, however, there is not 1 quote from Shakik, Muhammed or any member of KDP-I or PJAK or Komalah in which they state secession or Kurdish independence as their organizations objective. On the other hand there are interviews, press releases, by leaders of these 3 groups specifically renouncing separatism and denying they hold any separatist ideology.Kermanshahi (talk) 17:30, 14 October 2012 (UTC)
• Separatism does not necessarily mean secessionism; it could just mean militant political organizing for the sake of emphasizing a separate identity in opposition to the larger group, which may or may not lead to calls for more devolved power. I don't think this article should be merged. Shrigley (talk) 23:56, 21 October 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose This article is about the military conflict, not Iranian Kurdistan in general. If calling the confect "separatism" or "1 solid conflict" is a problem just name it something along the lines of "Kurdish–Iranian conflicts" (plural). Iranian_Kurdistan#Kurds_in_modern_Iran should modern history in general, this article should be about the military conflict/s. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 18:20, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

• Removed merge tag: I removed the merge tag. It is not relevant that consensus appeared to be leaning towards keep because the discussion stopped in January 2013. Otr500 (talk) 05:24, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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One good source

[11] [12] [13] [14] [15] [16] [17]-تیراژه (talk) 17:46, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

Problems

Personally I found many problems with this and related articles so criticism by Kermanshahi is justified. First of all inital start-article "Kurdish-Iranian conflict" included list of Ottoman-backed rebellions, Soviet-backed rebellions, and later Marxist insurgencies. Later, article was renamed as "Kurdish separatism in Iran" per "commonname" which is nonsense. Separatism can be part of insurgency, but not every insurgency is separatism. That's why I renamed it to "Kurdish insurgency in Iran", per two better sources and per google-books/scholar. Some of Greyshark's edits are clearly misleading, for example in article 1967 Kurdish revolt in Iran he inserted first intro-sentence that revolt was "...part of the long-running Kurdish separatism". It's misuse of sources, because cited book leads to section about PJAK. In Abrahiam book I found something very different, it says KDP-I's goal was establishing autonomy for Kurds in Iran modeled as a federal republic. No secession, no separatism. This and many other articles edited by Greyshark avod to mention any foreign influence and Marxist nature of revolts, so average person my assume all insurgencies were of same nationalist separatist nature, or that Kurds in Iran are the same as Palestinians in Israel. That's laughable nonsense. --HistorNE (talk) 09:03, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

Autonomy is also separatism. If you would like to rename Kurdish related articles please propose official rename procedure. So far, your actions seem disruptive editing and edit-warring.Greyshark09 (talk) 15:53, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

By some fringe definition it may be, but it shouldn't be misused by POV-pushers. I'll repeat, separatism can be part of insurgency, but not every insurgency is separatism. You've tried to present plunders and tribal revolts as "separatism", and when I correct it by citing most reliable sources you simply undo it and insult me by calling such edits as "dispruptive editing". You've changed name of article without any discussion and explanation, and after I changed it with explanation you search for discussion. Remember that Wikipedia is not your personal one-man show. --HistorNE (talk) 16:29, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

You should perhaps make yourself familiar with such works as "Land and Rebellion: Kurdish Separatism in Comparative Perspective" (2009). I don't mind to change the title, but you should support it with sources. Meanwhile your only argument is that i'm a propagandist, while i've invested a lot of effort to balance and source those articles properly. While reverting by the way, don't forget the 3RR.Greyshark09 (talk) 16:39, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

I checked Smith's document but I still haven't found most rebellions described as "separatism". Try to search in google books/scholar and I asure you "insurgency" has more results then "separatism". Some academic books even clearly states there's no separatism among such movements: "In spite of the official hostility of the government, there are strong ties between the Kurds and the Persians. The Kurdish language is related to Farsi, and the Kurds share much of their history with the rest of Iran. This may explain at least partly why Kurdish leaders in Iran do not want a separate Kurdish state." (Kreyenbroek, Philip G.; Sperl, Stefan (1992). The Kurds: A Contemporary Overview, p. 141). I didn't said you're propagandist, but few of your edits may look strange. --HistorNE (talk) 17:06, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

You are not responding to my requests for a move discussion prior to move, thus i assume no more WP:GF. Further, your actions are likely of a sock, previously active on Kurdish and Iranian related issues, so i will consider to issue a complaint for your disruptive behaviour.Greyshark09 (talk) 15:23, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

Move war

This page has been move-warred by User:HistorNE and User:Greyshark09 8 times so far in August. I have moved it to its pre-August title and protected it from further moves. Please use WP:RM to suggest a new title and form consensus. -- JHunterJ (talk) 15:20, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

I'm trying to convince him for making a move request, but HistorNE is not responding. Anyways seems he might be a sock of a previously active user, so i guess i will just issue a complaint.Greyshark09 (talk) 15:22, 9 August 2013 (UTC)