Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2013 November 18

18 November 2013

Appy Pie

Appy Pie (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)

The Article Appy Pie was deleted as its source list was considered as press releases, trivial mentions, deadlinks and blog posts, However this was not correct as the source list were from highly reputable news sources where journalists have featured mentions about the Company, As suggested by Mark Arsten (talk) I created a well sourced draft in my userspace and here is the link for your kind review https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Cxs107/sandbox/Appy_Pie and after reviewing the same Mark Arsten (talk) asked me to request for deletion review for my Article Appy Pie -Cxs107 (talk) 22:08, 18 November 2013 (UTC)

• Needs more work, in my opinion. It's not really the role of DRV to review articles for publication (that would be WP:AFC) or for deletion (that would be WP:AFD). In this instance I suppose the role of DRV would be to give you some advice as to whether your new article is likely to survive another round of AFD (given that you seem to accept that the original deletion was justified and so reviewing that deletion is a bit pointless). At this stage, I'd say it would be touch and go. There are probably a couple of good sources there but a lot of it is about routine business announcements (generally not considered significant coverage) and there's some user-generate stuff there and at least one article on a platform specifically designed to promote new tech ventures. Those that might be okay spent a bit of time talking about the venture's competitors and I can't help but think this is an attempt to promote this subject rather than cover it in an encyclopaedic manner and Wikipedia isn't the place for that. Stalwart111 06:34, 19 November 2013 (UTC)
• I agree with Stalwart111 other than I'd say it would likely be deleted. There just don't seem to be any sources where there is an editorial process that doesn't look like a press release. Hobit (talk) 14:09, 19 November 2013 (UTC)
• I don't necessarily agree with Stalwart111 opinion, mainly because of the fact that Appy Pie a cloud based mobile app startup and mostly all technology startups get a top level assessment of what the startup has to offer from the technology journalists, However, the previous article that I had created had issues in the sense it had some press releases that were sent out by the startup as notable sources, however in my latest article all the sources are independent technology journalists which came across Appy Pie and decided to share their feedback of what the startup and its product has to offer and in no way they are trying to promote the product on the contrary they are just sharing their honest opinion, and even thinking on the lines that they are promoting the product is like insulting them. Cxs107 (talk) 18:37, 19 November 2013 (UTC)

I'm talking about sources like NextBigWhat (previously Pluggd.in) who promote their site with testimonials and the first on the list starts: "Pluggd.in helped us establish our brand by featuring our products. We got many important business leads after this-clients were directly approaching us!". They exist to promote start-ups. That's perfectly fine, but it doesn't have much value to us here as an independent, reliable source. I don't think it's "insulting" to point that out. Stalwart111 22:51, 19 November 2013 (UTC)

• temporarily restored for discussion at Deletion Review DGG ( talk ) 21:30, 19 November 2013 (UTC)
• Considering that the article contains the sentences "Appy Pie will also soon allow you to sell products via your business’s app, a boon in the age of mobile shopping" and "no technical or programming skills are required nothing to download or install, just create you mobile app in 3 Simple Steps" I'm surprised it got as far as AfD -- I would have considered this a G11 candidate. If you want to try again, use AfC. It may take a little longer, but that won't matter unless you're trying to use WP to promote the new product. But you'll need references that are not just reprints from PRWire. One doesn't have to read between the lines to know that--it's stated right up at the top for Bloomberg, TeleCrunch, Reuters, and the WSJ. All these sources do also publish reviews by "independent technical journalists", but they publish this sort of thing also, which is why we are rather skeptical about sources in this area. Fox Business did write their own article, but it's one of 5 unevaluated products. CBS and NBC are no longer visible. DGG ( talk ) 21:57, 19 November 2013 (UTC)
  • Sure I understand the concerns with regards to sources its hence I re-drafted the article to fit the norms, Please review the same at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Cxs107/sandbox/Appy_Pie and do let me know if this re-draft meets all the guidelines in WP's Book with regards to notable sources and promotional in nature. Cxs107 (talk 23:11, 19 November 2013 (UTC)

Wikipedia:CUM

Wikipedia:CUM (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)

Well, I've been a log-time DRV contributor, but this is to my memory the first filing. A few weeks ago, I stumbled across a nastily juvenile and seldom-used redirect titled "WP:CUM", which is an alternate to WP:CMF for the Wikipedia:Creation and usage of media files help file. Thryduulf closed it as a "keep" however, due to what is IMO an misapplication of WP:NOTCENSORED policy. The concept of "not censored is one I have defended many, many times, but from what I read into that policy, it is only applicable to article space. We can and do censor ourselves in project-space, there is no policy that protects the creation of an obscene term to title a user helpme file. The admin also cites the utility of the redirect, but this assertion is debunked by comparing the "what links here" of both (minus the page itself and the RfD) "WP:CUM" (6) vs. "WP:CMF" (28). In fact, over 500 link directly to the help file itself. The word "CUM" is not intrinsically linked to the creation and usage of media; it is not necessary to direct new users to this file via this shortcut, it has been used 6 times in the 3 years that it has existed, and it is not protected by our project's antio-censorship policy. The closing admin IMO erred counting 2 keep voted that were grounded in a censorship argument, and further in his explanation of utility and usefulness. Sometimes we need to consider the public face we put towards our readers and contributors; to maintain this shortcut looks egregiously bad. Tarc (talk) 14:26, 18 November 2013 (UTC)

• closing admin. In addition to my closing statement I have explained myself further on my talk page at User talk:Thryduulf#breaking the existing links and disrupting the users. The number of uses of a redirect is not solely determined by the number of linking pages, but also by the number of page hits, which Tarc neglects to mention. I stand by my determination that the arguments in favour of retaining this redirect outweighed those for deleting, despite tarc's numerous comments. Thryduulf (talk) 14:57, 18 November 2013 (UTC)

  Well, obviously we discount hits made in the last few weeks, as I, you, and many others have clicked it only in the context of investigation and discussion. I stumbled across it on 7 Nov via this edit summary), so if we look before that date, there are only a smattering of 1-2 hits per day for ~40 over 90 days. Compare to the hits for WP:CMF, which was viewed ~300 times in the last 90 days, subtracting for recent events. And compare both to Wikipedia:Creation and usage of media files which received 4,000 hits in the same time frame. Both redirects are lightly used, the one with the offensive term/acronym being the lightest of all. What we have here is that WP:R#DELETE #9 ("offensive or abusive") is pitted against WP:K#KEEP #5 ("is useful"). The weight of an offensive term should have been counted more than a redirect with 40 hits over 2-3 months. We can live without this redirect, given how much more the alternates are utilized by the readers. Apart from that, Thryduulf neglects to explain how the non-censored policy (which 2 keeps voted rested upon) for articles extends to project-space, an extension that does not appear to be supported by the respective policy page. Tarc (talk) 16:15, 18 November 2013 (UTC)

• Endorse closure. Irrespective of whether the closer misinterpreted the various WP:NOTCENSORED arguments (and I don't believe he did), the decision was also based on the abbreviation's plausibility and the redirect's current use (not just via incoming links, which can be retargeted, but also searches, which cannot, other than via this redirect). Taking into account all the arguments presented in the discussion, as well as the usual considerations common to all RfDs, the decision is entirely appropriate. —Psychonaut (talk) 16:18, 18 November 2013 (UTC)
• So apparently: (1) when Wikipedians say "WP:CUM" to each other, it's sometimes perfectly innocent and accidental, and (2) these innocent uses are causing offence, and (3) turning the shortcut into a redlink would stop that from happening. To my amazement, based on the 7th November diff, (1) actually does seem to be true. (That noise you can hear in the background is my mind boggling.) Is there any evidence of (2) or (3)?—S Marshall T/C 22:14, 18 November 2013 (UTC)
• Ick. I don't think there was consensus as I don't think one side had significantly stronger arguments than the other (though delete was, IMO stronger as the potential to offend (intentionally or otherwise) seems to conflict with WP:IAR and the whole point of building an encyclopedia. overturn to no consensus as the vote was split and I don't see how the keeps could be seen to have a stronger argument. Delete would also have been an acceptable close IMO. Hobit (talk) 22:49, 18 November 2013 (UTC)

  Well for #2, my initial reaction was more along the lines of a "WTF? How is that a blue-link?" I'm not personally offended in a Mary Whitehouse kind of way, I just feel a term which is far, far more associated with the sexual word than anything else is quite inappropriate to use for a project shortcut. As I said in the RfD, what if we had a help file regarding the Creation and Usage of New Templates? Tarc (talk) 13:55, 20 November 2013 (UTC)

  "what if we had a help file regarding the Creation and Usage of New Templates?" The existence or otherwise of such a page is entirely irrelevant to both whether this redirect should be kept or deleted, and to whether my closure of the deletion discussion was correct or otherwise. Thryduulf (talk) 14:03, 20 November 2013 (UTC)

  You are not personally offended but simply assume that others are? Sounds like a textbook case of pluralistic ignorance. —Psychonaut (talk) 14:06, 20 November 2013 (UTC)

  By that logic then I cannot speak up if I hear an anti-gay slur, since I am heterosexual. Tarc (talk) 14:11, 20 November 2013 (UTC)

  No, in that case no assumptions are required, since there is ample evidence that anti-gay slurs are offensive to others. We're all still waiting for any proof that someone might be, or has actually been, offended by the contextually appropriate use of the three letters under discussion. —Psychonaut (talk)

  That's an unnecessary and unreasonable standard to request, so, consider it discarded. An average reader will, when presented with the title "Wikipedia:CUM", not think "oh, creation and usage of media", but rather that will think "why is a Wikipedia page named after semen?" Tarc (talk) 14:45, 20 November 2013 (UTC)

  Clearly you believe the "average reader"'s emotional and intellectual sophistication to be roughly on the level of Beavis and Butthead. I'm sorry you hold our visitors in such contempt. —Psychonaut (talk) 15:59, 20 November 2013 (UTC)

  Wow, really? In the workplace I'd certainly avoid having an acronym as "CUM" because it would be likely to be found offensive. I've no doubt that if I tried to do something like that I'd be quickly called into _someone's_ office. I'd think that would be true in nearly any workplace. Would it be acceptable in yours? Perhaps we are all too "PC" these days (though I'd certainly never call Tarc that...), but yeah, this is pretty clearly a bad idea and would be treated so in any workplace (from fast food to academia) I've every worked in. To attack someone for upholding what is pretty typical work standards is really unacceptable. Hobit (talk) 19:05, 20 November 2013 (UTC)

• Endorse Close was policy-based and within admin discretion. The delete votes were not grounded in policy. The suggestion that this was likely to cause offence was not substantiated. As the closer noted, it is an acronym that fits with the title of the page, so it is not there as some sort of bad taste joke. There is no reason to believe that most people will fail to realise that it is an acronym for a page title, rather than a gratuitous sexual reference. Neljack (talk) 10:55, 19 November 2013 (UTC)

  WP:NOTCENSORED governs article content, not our project pages, so I question an endorsement that claims "policy-based and within admin discretion". I don't believe admins are empowered to extend policy beyond their intended scope. Tarc (talk) 13:46, 20 November 2013 (UTC)

• Refuse to dignify with a !vote. This may be the single most pathetic waste of time in the history of policy nit-picking. WHO THE FUCK CARES if we have a redirect called WP:CUM?! I'd feel differently, I guess, if it were actually trying to make some crude point, but it's not, it's just a fucking acronym, Tarc. It's also not a particularly offensive word, and it's also a perfectly apt abbreviation. Look, I'm quite solidly in the group of Wikipedians who like to hang around project-space and comment on policy, but this DRV makes me ashamed to be in that group. Usually we metapedians further the goal of improving the encyclopedia; this nomination, however, just makes us look like collossal drains on the community's time and energy. I am only writing this in the hopes that others may either choose not to waste their breaths on something so utterly inconsequential, or !vote quickly and decisively and give this the speedy close it deserves. — PinkAmpers&^{(Je vous invite à me parler)} 15:15, 20 November 2013 (UTC)
• Comment. I don't see anything particularly bad about Thryduulf's close, being based on a balance of the arguments. I will say though that it makes some sense to get rid of the extra redirects (both CUM and CMF) because it is unnecessarily confusing to have lots of different names for the same destination (that applies to a lot of pet redirects for many policies/fora). I strongly oppose "salting" of the term, claims that it is "obscene", and so forth. Didn't anybody around here graduate magna cum laude? wikt:cum also notes the usage "barista cum waitress", etc. Try to keep it in your pants. I would suggest just wait the proper term before trying a new AfD, or if you really want a faster way, then let's get a general AfD going with a single consistent usage stats standard for MANY obscure abbreviations; we can agree once and all to AfD them all and replace them, for a limited period, with a template page saying that as part of a consolidation we're phasing out their use; maybe program a bot to go back and change the old instances. Wnt (talk) 17:28, 20 November 2013 (UTC)
  • Why are multiple redirects to the same location confusing? They exist to help people find pages, and many pages have multiple logical names - for example WP:DRV and WP:DELREV; Las Vegas, NV, Las Vegas, Nevada, etc. Thryduulf (talk) 17:57, 20 November 2013 (UTC)

Sorry, I've been a bit confused myself - I see now there actually isn't a better-named redirect than this (there's no CUMF). Wnt (talk) 18:59, 20 November 2013 (UTC)

• Comment I hope I'm not complicating things, but what the hell, I did this: Wikipedia talk:Creation and usage of media files#Requested move. Feel free to shut 'er down if it is inappropriate. Rgrds. --64.85.215.198 (talk) 19:13, 20 November 2013 (UTC)