Talk:Bosnian War

Expl

I already said: one reference doesnt mean that there is a new term in common usage. 77.238.203.68 (talk) 12:28, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

The war in Bosnia was a civil rather than interstate

The war in Bosnia began interethnic conflict between the three nations 1 March. Before 6 April was followed by the invasion of Serbia and Croatia. The Croatian attack began the Sava and Herzegovina 26 March. Serbian attack began 1 April over the Drina River in the town of Bijeljina, in the ordered state security chief Jovica Stanisic, Serbia. 6 April came after.--Baba Mica (talk) 12:30, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

Revert, why

I have reverted the removal of the CIA per WP:ATTRIBUTEPOV. Please stop removing it. Darkness Shines (talk) 06:36, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view :

"Avoid stating seriously contested assertions as facts. If different reliable sources make conflicting assertions about a matter, treat these assertions as opinions rather than facts, and do not present them as direct statements."

From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Identifying_reliable_sources#Biased_or_opinionated_sources :

Biased or opinionated sources:

"Wikipedia articles are required to present a neutral point of view. However, reliable sources are not required to be neutral, unbiased, or objective. Sometimes non-neutral sources are the best possible sources for supporting information about the different viewpoints held on a subject. While a source may be biased, it may be reliable in the specific context. When dealing with a potentially biased source, editors should consider whether the source meets the normal requirements for reliable sources, such as editorial control and a reputation for fact-checking. Editors should also consider whether the bias makes it appropriate to use in-text attribution to the source, as in "Feminist Betty Friedan wrote that...", "According the Marxist economist Harry Magdoff...," or "Conservative Republican presidential candidate Barry Goldwater believed that...". Common sources of bias include political, financial, religious, philosophical, or other beliefs."

Of course, was your source a direct link to the CIA report, with actual proofs and data, it would be just fair to leave it as it is, but this isn't the case. Not to add that your sentence is incorrect, as you wrote "90% of war crimes", whereas the article talks about "acts of "ethnic cleansing"".

I'm not deleting the entire statement, but altering it for the sake of fairness and neutrality of the article. -- JimmyBroole (talk) 13:55, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

Two things, the first being this is not my source, the second is that the linked article says "C.I.A. Report on Bosnia Blames Serbs for 90% of the War Crimes", and ethnic cleansing is a war crime. Darkness Shines (talk) 14:25, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

I agree with JimmyBroole´s concerns. First, we need to be aware that CIA and United States at time of the report, 1995, were beligerants in the Bosnian War using air strikes against Bosnian Serbs. Second, war crimes is a much broader term than ethnic cleansing, the two are not the same and cannot be replaced one with another in such way. The way the text is now, citing that CIA claims, the way JimmyBroole fixed it, seems much more appropriate. FkpCascais (talk) 14:49, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

Who cares? I know for a fact that there are academic sources which state as fact that the Serbian forces carried out 90% of war crimes, will you also argue with those? Darkness Shines (talk) 14:56, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

See Cultural Formations of Postcommunism: Emancipation, Transition, Nation, and War p252 "According to a leaked CIA report, the Serbian leaders and armies are responsible for 90% of the atrocities committed in this war and 100% of the systematic killing" Darkness Shines (talk) 15:01, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

As I said before, you either link a direct source of the CIA report (or the other academic sources you know) with actual data and research for people to see, or the statement remains expressed as a claim, since that's what it currently is. And as FkpCascais asserted, "war crime" includes a vast spectrum of military violations, with "ethnic cleansing" being one of them. It's a specification, not a synonym. Thus, following the various motives that have been listed above (especially concerning the article neutrality), I invite you to leave the text as it is. --JimmyBroole (talk) 15:47, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

No, what with the best sources according to our policies saying I do not have to. I fully intend to revert your changes, and add the source mentioned previously by myself. Darkness Shines (talk) 16:02, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

You're acting by your own, blatantly ignoring everything that I have written, carefully explaining to you why some principles exist and should be respected by the community of Wikipedia. Besides being a generally disrespectful behavior, this goes against what Wikipedia IS or should be, just to elevate and give visibility to one own's belief or opinion. I didn't even delete the statement, for respect, and since I think that every point of view SHOULD be visible, but AS IT IS, because it's extremely important to differentiate FACTS from CLAIMS, since the first one has way more weight than the latter, and thus should absolutely be handled with great care and attention. --JimmyBroole (talk) 16:53, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

No, I am acting according to policy, unless you know of one which says we ignore academic sources? Darkness Shines (talk) 17:07, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

We are not ignoring the sources, but just adjusting the statement based on the overall value, type, accuracy, and origin of said sources, thus being able to say when something is a fact ("CIA found out that..") or a claim ("CIA claimed that.."). Simple as that. As you can see I changed a simple verb and "war crime" to "ethnic cleansing", I don't see what is bothering you. --JimmyBroole (talk) 17:23, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

JimmyBroole is absolutelly right. Even your second source says "According to a leaked CIA report...". Regarding ethnic cleansing/war crimes, ethnic cleansing is much more specific and it is cited, changing it to a broader term in this case is controversial... and unecessary. FkpCascais (talk) 18:08, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

Do you guys have reading issues? Are the quote I gave not clear enough? Obviously not, so a revert is due. Darkness Shines (talk) 19:21, 31 July 2014 (UTC)