Talk:Zinedine Zidane

Archive (to June 12)

ZIDANE WINS !!!

• • • Someone stated there was too much focus on the head-butting incident. Yes, The incident was a negative to World Cup, to France, and to Zidane. But!! He has hurt Italy most. The great focus on the incident has hurt Italy most. Let’s assume that France lost the world cup by shoot out anyway. Lets assume that Trezeguet would still miss his shot. Then what?! The 2006 World Cup tournament would be stacked with the other World Cup tournaments in the vault. People would forget that France played better then Italy in the final. Zidane changed all that.

• • • The honest truth of the matter is, Zidane would have left the world cup in respect sure, one of the greats. But now he has left Football in a phenomenally grand spectacle. A grand spectacle befitting a gladiator. Zidanes calm demeanor, his gentlemanly-ness made this possible. If it were Materazzi head-butting Zidane, it would be totally different. Zidane will never get the negatives that Mike Tyson got for biting Holyfield's ear. This is not to say Zidane did the right thing, but sometimes the wrong thing makes one famous.

• • • Zidane has not weakened his reputation, rather he has solidified his legacy and only hurt Italy's joy of the win. All will remember France in the 2006 World Cup, all will remember Zidane. People for decades to come will read “Zidane” research his videos and remember his magic. Not only have people been researching the Zidane head-butt, but by circumstance have been watching Zidane’s Greatest Goals, or Zidane’s Magic, or Zidane’s Ball Control, or Zidane: The Greatest Footballer. Maybe he was the greatest maybe not, but his head-butt has made him a contender for that title. Anyway you look at it Italy has not been able to reap the true glory of the win. Zidane wins. --by BB--

Why is this relevant? This isn't a Zidane fanboard, nor is Marco's wiki talk page a Marco fanboard. Can we please stick to the article? Dead men's bells 07:13, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Canal+ Interview

Is anyone watching? What did he say? I bet he didn't get into details of Materazzi's insult.--216.75.93.110 18:18, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Could not watch the interview. Internet news are very imprecise on Zidane's words. Some say insults to "mother and sister", others to "family" others to his "women". It would be useful to have on Wikipedia the exact transcript of Zidane's words, to match with Matreazzi's statements that he did not mention Zidane's mother. Apparently Zidane did not say what insults he received.

He said he repeatedly insulted his mother and sister, that he is a man and does not regret his actions but that he regrets it for the millions watching and especially for the teachers etc...

Good for Zidane! --83.45.170.143 18:27, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

I watched the interview. Zidane did not want to say what insults he received, even pressed by the interviewer. The racist hypothesis is apparently out. It is true that Zidane mentions his mother and sister, but he does not really clarify. I guess we won't know nuch more from the two contendants. Normally plenty of insults are heard during a football match. Zidane does not suggest why Materazzi's words were so unusual.

Did he really mention his mother and sister explicitly? According to the article about the interview in L'equipe (http://lequipe.fr/Football/20060712_203855Dev.html) he answers a question regarding if it was about his mother and sister. As I understand it, it is possible that it was about his sister and not his mother. --Battra 19:30, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

PARIS (AP) -- Zinedine Zidane has affirmed yesterday evening that the Italian defender Marco Materazzi had insulted his mother and his sister during the World Cup final that was lost by les bleus Sunday evening. Though he apologized ["Je m'excuse"], he said on Canal+ that nevertheless he could "not regret" his action. (...) Materazzi had said "very personel things" about "my mother, my sister", Zidane explained. There were "words that were very hard and that he repeated several times", words "sometimes harder than actions (...) that touched the deepest part of me." "I would have preferred to take a right on the face over hearing that," the former captain of the French team added. "It was an action that was not excusable and I wish to apologise above all to the children who may have watched it" ... (Feel free to improve my hasty translation) David Sneek 18:51, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Later Zidane told TF1 that Materazzi did not make racist statements. I guess this makes the whole story less interesting than the media expected ...

Can we either get a cite on him telling TF1 that it wasn't racist or at least mention in the article that Zidane did not say if the remarks were racist or not? Dead men's bells 19:53, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Unfortunately I got the news from an internet newspaper, claiming that Zidane did tell TF1 that there was no racist statement. I cannot quote TF1 directly right now. As soon as I get a sound quotation it is mandatory to insert it in the article (but I cannot, because access is restricted). I will put it here and somebody else will insert it. My indirect quotation is from Corriere della Sera http://www.corriere.it/Primo_Piano/Sport/2006/07_Luglio/12/Zidane.shtml Orbifold 20:01, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

The Geneva Tribune has this description, which partially corroborates the Corerriere della Sera[1]:

A la question de savoir si les insultes étaient à caractère raciste, Zidane a répondu non. Mais il a refusé de dévoiler avec précision ce qu'avait dit Materazzi. Il a été interrogé pour savoir si la réalité «recoupait» ce qu'avaient rapporté les tabloïds anglais qui, s'appuyant sur des spécialistes en lecture labiale, ont accusé l'Italien d'avoir dit: «On sait tous que tu es le fils d'une pute terroriste.» Zidane a juste répondu: «Ben oui.»

Which I've translated as:

To the question of whether the insults were of racist character, Zidane answered no. But he refused to disclose precisely what Materazzi had said. He was asked if reality "matched up" with what the English tabloids, who, relying on lipreading specialists, had accused the Italian of having said "We all know that you are the son of a terrorist whore", reported, Zidane answered exactly "Yes."

So, according to the Swiss paper, in the TF1 interview, Zidane agreed that Materazzi said something along the lines of "you are the son of a terrorist whore" but he doesn't classify what was said as racist in character. The Italian paper reported only the part where Zidane says no. However, there are thousands of other papers that have cited the TF1 interview (not just the Canal+ interview) but none of them report either exchange. Maybe due to the ambiguity of everything that was said? In any case, any attempt for Wikipedia to do original reporting in this area would be inapproprate. --DaveOinSF 04:06, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Just in case you were still under the impression that this was said, it wasn't. You can watch the TF1 interview yourself. 67.169.111.72 02:16, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Italy disallowed World Cup victory?

"On July 12, 2006, it was reported that FIFA president Joseph Blatter had mentioned the possibility of Zidane being stripped of the Golden Ball award [38][39], while German news magazine Der Spiegel speculated that under the non-discrimination provision which FIFA adopted for its disciplinary code on 28 March 2006 [40] [41] [3], FIFA may ultimately impose harsh sanctions on Materazzi and/or the Italian team - up to and including disallowing Italy's team the World Cup victory - if Materazzi's remarks were proven to be discriminatory or contemptuous. This would possibly result in the World Cup Victory being conferred upon France as the runners-up in the tournament.[42]"

Any other sources that mention this possibilty somewhere? I haven't been able to find any that say FIFA is considering this. Also would the WC automaticaly go to France if Materazzi is found guilty of provoking Zidane? 15:24, 14 July 2006

Criminal Charges?

Has there been any mention of criminal charges for Zidane's assault on Materazzi? Or does law not apply to athletes on the field?

Re: The law always applies. There was a case a few years back where a hockey player in the USA attacked another player on the ice and was charged with assault. However, I have not yet heard about possible charges against Zidane. Manus Celer Dei 19:34, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Normally sport players are committed not to go to ordinary courts to decide about episodes of a match, because the agonistic tension can provoke behaviors that the same persons would never show in ordinary life. This both for Materazzi's words and Zidane's reaction. More serious are the words or acts that follow the match or are not directly related with a match. Those should also be dealt with by the FIFA and other sport authorities, without involvment by ordinary courts, but it is less unfrequent to hear of footbal teams going to court. Normally a team excluded from some competition because of his budget goes to court to be admitted. Orbifold 19:57, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Zidane says insults were not of racist nature

Regarding the request for a citation (see end of section Canal+ interview), I couldn't find something written to quote, but if you watch the interview on the TF1 website (http://www.eurosport.fr/football/coupedumonde/2006/sport_sto924766.shtml) at about 2 mins. 30 secs. you'll hear this (sorry for not writing accents, but my keybord doesn't have them):

INTERVIEWER: "... et quand vous dites 'des paroles tres graves', est-ce que vous pouvez dire si elles sont d'ordre raciste, ..."

ZIDANE: "non..."

INTERVIEWER: "... si elles sont d'ordre familiale... "

ZIDANE: "... oui c'est familiale... "

Which translates into (god, how hard!):

INTERVIEWER: "... and when you say 'very serious words', could you say if they are of racist nature, ..."

ZIDANE: "no..."

INTERVIEWER: "... if they are of domestic nature... "

ZIDANE: "... yes, domestic... "

131.111.225.73 21:22, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

...and for anyone (who understands french and is) interested in the video here it is at youtube. Darn I dont understand French. --Oblivious 01:45, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

That is a different video. Note that Zidane gave two different interviews, one to Canal + and one to TF1. 193.62.198.107 12:16, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Is there any reason the page can't be updated to reflect that Zidane categorically said they were NOT racist? Is there a problem with citing video interviews? 67.169.111.72 03:18, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe this article says he said no when asked? Is that sufficient? http://www.tdg.ch/tghome/toute_l_info_test/sports/zidane__13_07_.html Dead men's bells 03:43, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

My translation of that article's pertinent paragraph:

To the question of whether the insults were of racist character, Zidane answered no. But he refused to disclose precisely what Materazzi had said. He was asked if reality "matched up" with what the English tabloids, who, relying on lipreading specialists, had accused the Italian of having said "We all know that you are the son of a terrorist whore", reported, Zidane answered exactly "Yes." --DaveOinSF 04:12, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm confused, is he saying that's what was said? If so, that would be a racist remark... Maybe this is why the English articles have yet to report it, it seems like a conflict. Dead men's bells 04:59, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

so should it be included on the page that he said they weren't racist? because now it seems a bit up in the air.

I'm inclined to go that way, yes. I can understand that Zidane doesn't want to repeat it exactly, but I'm a bit peeved at these interviewers! The first interview didn't even ask if there was racism involved and the second is unclear. I hope he gives an interview to someone international who'll focus on the question of racism, because as bad as insults about mothers/sisters may be, they don't usually warrant sanctions. Racist remarks, however, would. Dead men's bells 06:17, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree that it should be mentioned. The answer "no" was clear. If it is not mentioned the reader believes that there is still room for speculation about the racist content, which is not the case. Read here today's Corriere's published article who repeats the "no" [2] Orbifold 06:50, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

As long as it is a full representation of what Zidane said.--DaveOinSF 07:50, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

While it does appear Zidane has said no, could someone who understands French read the whole thing and confirm that Zidane actually denied they were of a racist nature. Looking at the English translation, it's a bit ambigious. Zidane is asked whether he COULD say if they were of a racist nature and he replied no. This could either mean they weren't of a racist nature of he is not going to say whether they were of a racist nature. Probably it's just an unfortunate wording of the English translation and most media appear to have quoted him as denying they were of a racist nature and Zidane does not appear to have attempted to correct these claims but we need to be sure before we make such claims. Nil Einne 08:10, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm inclined to agree. At the moment, the article doesn't directly reference the alleged racist remarks other than to say "ranging from racist remarks" yada yada yada. Until Zidane clears this up or English media outlets report this, I think any further mention of racist remarks whatsoever should be avoided. It's too confusing at the moment. So my vote is for not adding the "no," but also keeping the article without the terrorist comments until they're confirmed/denied clearly. Dead men's bells 08:43, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Careful about this "most media" decription. Almost no media have reported it at all. The English translation above was my own from the French in the Geneva Tribune. If you have found any English language media (or any other) source that makes the same claims, then please post it. I have not found one. We are basing this entire discussion on 1) an Italian report in the Corriere della Sera, 2)a French-language report in a Swiss paper (Geneva Tribune), and 3) one Wikipedia user's interpretation of a small portion of the TF1 interview video. There are hundreds of English language press reports which discuss the TF1 interview, none of which included a statement that Zidane categorically denied that Materazzi's taunts included racist or terrorist language, and most of which stick with the line that he didn't even discuss it in the Canal+ interview. I'm confused why that is.--DaveOinSF 08:28, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

• • • The psychology of the individual determines what they understand, this is basic psychology. Zidane understood and was angered not by the “Terrorist remark” but rather that it pertained to his “mother” and family. It seems that many of the comments here are delving more into what exactly was stated by Materazzi (a very good thing to find out) rather then what it was in Materazzi’s cursing angered Zidane. From Zidanes interview it is clear that he did not head-butt Materazzi do to a racist comment, rather it was do to a reaction to having his mother and other family members verbally abused. That is clearly why he understood the cursing to be about family, rather then race. --by BB--

Other sources confirming Zidane's denial of racist insults:

from Le Parisien:

Avant l'émission, le journaliste [M. Denisot] interroge Zidane sur les insultes proférées par Materazzi. « Il m'a assuré que ce n'était pas raciste. Mais il n'a pas voulu me donner les mots exacts employés par l'Italien. Simplement que ça concernait sa mère et sa soeur. On peut deviner la suite... »

http://www.leparisien.com/home/sports/mondial2006/article.htm?articleid=261030842

from Il Corriere:

Gli insulti comunque, ha specificato l'ex capitano della Francia, non erano d'ordine razzista (una puntualizzazione che spazza via l'ipotesi, piuttosto remota, che la Fifa potesse privare l'Italia del titolo mondiale sulla base del regolamento che vieta comportamenti di questo genere).

http://www.corriere.it/Primo_Piano/Sport/2006/07_Luglio/12/Zidane.shtml

F4810 11:03, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

My statements are confirmed also by a French user on the French Wikipedia Talk page about Zinedine Zidane [3], who writes "L'article du Monde (dont le lien figure sur l'article de Zidane) semble dire que Zidane confirme la version des propos racistes soutenue par de nombreux Tabloids anglais. Or hier Zidane a nié les insultes racistes (en particulier durant l'interview de TF1 ou Claire Chazal lui a directement posé la question). Je pense donc qu'il faudrait supprimer cet article du Monde et le remplacer par un autre qui ne déforme pas la réalité." Therefore I suggest that a statement on this important fact be inserted. I think it is not fair to ignore this important interview in the English page. Orbifold 12:40, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

This:

He was asked if reality "matched up" with what the English tabloids, who, relying on lipreading specialists, had accused the Italian of having said "We all know that you are the son of a terrorist whore", reported, Zidane just answered "Well, yes."

has been removed from the article appearing on Le Monde, which was probably also the source for the Swiss newspaper. 193.62.198.148 10:03, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Overhaul needed.

Alright, now that Zidane and Materazzi have publically spoken about the incident, I think it does need to be edited down. Aside from a passing mention that there was initially some rumor about racist remarks, I don't think there needs to be anything else on that front (i.e. the word 'terrorist' anywhere) because Zidane's categorically denied it. Can someone reduce it to reflect Zidane and Materazzi's current positions and get rid of all the speculation? Dead men's bells 22:11, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

I reduced it somewhat and removed the earlier claims coming from newspapers. Zakaria5000 22:19, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

I do not think that it is fair to leave the racist matter like that. It should at least be mentioned that Zidane's categorically denied it. I think that this is crucial information to avoid speculation. Just letting the matter fall down is not sufficient. Orbifold 06:57, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree. Having just heard that Zidane had spoken, I checked out wiki to get an idea of what Zidane had said. I assumed that Materazzi probably had said that his mother (and perhaps sister) were terrorists whores. However if Zidane has categorically denied that the comments were racist in nature, this clearly needs to be mentioned since A LOT of people would have heard about the terrorist allegations and the article as it stands is likely to lead many, like me, to assume that's still likely the case. Nil Einne 07:38, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Any citation that the interview in which Zidane says "no" to whether the insult was racist in character would also have to include that he did not dispute the English tabloids' lipreaders versions. This includes the terrorist whores statements.--DaveOinSF 07:47, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

I have watched the TF1 movie again. There is no exchange like the one claimed by DaveOinSF and Tribune de Geneve. The claims " He was asked if reality "matched up" with what the English tabloids, who, relying on lipreading specialists, had accused the Italian of having said "We all know that you are the son of a terrorist whore", reported, Zidane just answered "Yes." " does not correspond to the truth in TF1 video. The TF1 video does not contain anything like that. Anybody can watch the video and confirm. Asked if Materazzi's statements were racist, Zidane answers "no". There is no ambiguity in the TF1 video about that. No later comment invalidating that "no". Orbifold 10:40, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Technically "son of a terrorist whore" is NOT a racist statement, so both claims do not contradict each other.Krouic 11:14, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes, but the words "son of a terrorist wore", or any alike, are not contained in any point of the TF1 video. The interview is long and after the first few minutes, where the matter is clarified definitively, it gets even boring.Orbifold 12:45, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

I think it is (or 'would have been') a very grave racist statement, as it refers at Zidane's algerian background

Does anyone know if anyone's ever been stripped of the Golden Ball award before? Dead men's bells 23:09, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Do you really think that's a possibility? — ዮም | (Yom) | Talk • contribs • Ethiopia 06:50, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Well Blatter has hinted at it. Of course he also has a big mouth but who knows? We would assume that Blatter was well aware of the terrorist allegations and this was before Zidane made his speech apparently denying that it was a racist slur. So we would assume Blatter was well aware it was potentially a racist slur and yet still thought that Zidane might deserve to have the Golden Ball award removed. Nil Einne 07:41, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

That has absolutely nothing to do with it. You're getting sidetracked. Zidane keeping or not keeping the award is a separate issue from Materazzi being sanctioned or not. There isn't a "two wrongs make a right" policy. They'll both be punished individually, but nobody at FIFA is even SUGGESTING that Zidane will get off lighter because Materazzi might have said something terrible. They would punish Materazzi in addition, not lessen Zidane's sentence. And it's been reported by many news outlets. They said they'll wait until the end of the investigation. His main point was that the media awards it, but FIFA has the right to take it away if they deem necessary.

I think what's getting lost in this is that Zidane committed a flagrant foul. Whether you personally think he was justified in doing so or not, it carries consequences, because it's against the rules regardless of provocation. The question of justification is a moral/ethical one, not a regulatory one. If he was provoked through racism, Materazzi will be punished, there's little doubt of that. But this idea that the seriousness of Materazzi's provocation will somehow lessen Zidane's punishment is boggling. Dead men's bells 08:37, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Firstly, I should clarify that I'm not suggesting that Zidane was justified in his actions. But while I don't know much about FIFA's inner workings, it would surprise me if they didn't consider the kind of provocation when deciding on a punishment for Zidane. Sure Zidane clearly broke the laws and deserves to be punished. But in most cases that I know of, including in a court of law and with other sporting bodies, the entire circumstances would be analysed when deciding punishment. Migating factors would be taken into account.

If for example Zidane were charged with assault, in most countries he would get a worse punishment/sentence if it were a repeat offense for example or if there was no real provocation. On the other hand, a lesser punishment/sentence would be handed out if it were a first time offense or if there was a extreme provocation, especially one of a racist or similar nature. Note that this is not because assault is justified when there is extreme provocation. Nor does it have anything to do with two wrongs making a right. Nor does it have much to do with the seriousness of Materazzi offense. It's more to do with the recognition that the seriousness of Zidane's offense depends on the circumstances in which it occured. I repeat I have no idea on FIFA's disciplinary procedures but again it would surprise me if they really don't consider the entire circumstances including migating factors when deciding punishment.

However I think you might have misunderstood my point. I was not arguing or offering an opinion on whether the specific migating factor should be enough to prevent Zidane losing his award. This isn't the place for such arguments. My point was that if FIFA does take migating factors into account when deciding punishment (and I appreciate that Dead men does not believe they do) then we can assume Blatter felt the migating factor of racist comments was not enough to prevent Zidane losing his award. Whatever people may feel in this matter is for other forums and other places. Nil Einne 13:09, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Bad link

The link under the headbutt photo entitled "Alternate video" needs fixing or removing. The You Tube message reads:

"This video has been removed at the request of copyright owner FIFA 2006 because its content was used without permission".

The "Ben, oui" answer

I removed this from the article:

Asked if Materazzi had called him "the son of a terrorist whore" (referring to an analysis by deaf forensic lip reader Jessica Rees), Zidane replied: "Ben oui" (Well, yes)

The reasons are:

1) A source is not provided. The primary source would be Le Monde, but (as someone noticed at the end of section "Zidane says insults were not of racist nature") they have removed this sentence from their article (still accessible)... All the other newspapers were citing Le Monde.

2) This contradicts Zidane's denial of racist insults, which is reported by Le Parisien (http://www.leparisien.com/home/sports/mondial2006/article.htm?articleid=261030842), by several italian newspapers, and can be heard clearly in his interview with TF1.

F4810 19:59, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Actually there is a source for that quote, it's still there (footnote 29: [4]). But I agree it's a bit suspect. I watched both the Canal+ interview and the TF1 interview and I didn't hear that question. David Sneek 20:19, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

3) Ok, now I understand where that sentence was coming from. For those who can understand French, watch the Canal + interview at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PSA_I-nFXOU at 5:10. The sentence from Le Monde (then fortunately removed) was a big distorsion of what has been said here. The interviewer says that the sentences reported on the English and Italian tabloids somehow agree with what Zidane just hinted at, insults regarding Zidane's mother and sister. Zidane comments this twice with "ben, oui", once even before 'agrees with' ("recoupe" in french) is said.

I personally think Zidane's denial of having received insults of racist nature should also be included. Alternatively all the story about who said what should be deleted... F4810 20:29, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

You're absolutely right. Neither interview has the phrase quoted in Le Monde. What CAN be clearly heard is Zidane's denial of the racist comments, and I'm going to update the article to reflect that. If anyone can find either video or independent evidence of his agreeing his mother was called a terrorist whore (which I can't imagine he WOULDN'T consider racist, but that's irrelevent - I'm quoting his "no" to racism response, not saying he said "My mother has not been called a terrorist "whore"), it can be added, but as it stands there's one newspaper and a bunch of people who copied from it, despite the fact that the interview video it's purported to be in doesn't contain it. Dead men's bells 22:58, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

• • • The psychology of the individual determines what they understand, this is basic psychology. Zidane understood and was angered not by the “Terrorist remark” but rather that it pertained to his “mother” and family. It seems that many of the comments here are delving more into what exactly was stated by Materazzi (a very good thing to find out) rather then what it was in Materazzi’s cursing that angered Zidane. From Zidanes interview it is clear that he did not head-butt Materazzi do to a racist comment, rather it was do to a reaction to having his mother and other family members verbally abused. That is clearly why he understood the cursing to be about family, rather then race. --by BB--

That's speculation at this point. We don't know if he said it wasn't racist because a) he didn't interpret terrorist as racist or b) because terrorist just wasn't said. Zidane may have reacted to his mother being called a whore and his sister a prostitute. Not cool things to do, obviously, but the terrorist is the key word because it's what will make a difference between a shameful offense and a punishable violation of non-discrimination policies. Hopefully Zidane will clear this up during the FIFA hearings.Dead men's bells 05:38, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Zidane's Mother's Comments

Comments allegedly attributed to her prove to be a mere tabloid fabrication.

The Daily Mirror was silent in revealing their sources, yet those closest to the Zidane family have stated that his mother did not say that she wanted Materazzi's testicles (cut off) on a platter. If someone stated it, it was not his mother. The Daily Mirror only backed their reporting by reiterating that Zidane's mother told *her friends* "I have nothing but contempt for Materazzi and, if what he said is true, then I want his balls on a platter," This purposeful response by The Daily Mirror reveals only that their news came as an indirect quote, rather then an interview.

It seems The Daily Mirror will have to join the Materazzi apology band wagon.

Look, so many of the famous professional "athletes" are low lifes and thugs, in spite of the millions they make in salaries and slinging advertisements. They cannot get away from their own origins, no matter how hard they try. Both of these players are guilty. This kind of head butt to the chest has the potential to stop ones heart, and the one moron could have actually killed the other moron. A great example for children (inspite of apologies)! If an idiot called my mother (bad, obscene, or otherwise vulgar) names, in order to taunt me, not only would my mother not care, but I would LOL and walk away. That, my friends, is the bottom line, and the true moral of the story. Dr. Dan 04:38, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

You don't know if you would walk away. You can only speculate on what you might or would like to do. Then again, this incident really isn't about you, so I'm not quite sure why what you would or would not do is of any importance.

It doesn't matter what anybody on the talk page would do. It's irrelevant. There are forums for discussing ethics.

Dear anonymous editor, I do know what I would do, and that is walk away. No speculation there. But you are right, the fact that I was raised by more intelligent people, and think more rationally is irrelevant.

The talk pages are different than an article itself, and many people add their perspective or "two cents" on them. Sorry it disturbed you. Not surprisingly, you didn't bother to comment on my other imput. What could have you disagreed with me there? BTW, the whole matter is about ethics, and this place is as good as any other forum to discuss the subject. Dr. Dan 14:29, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

If that were the case, we'd have four archives full of "I think Zidane should/shouldn't have." It's a talk page for an encyclopedia article, primarily for discussion on what to include/not/valid references, etc. At the very least create a sub-topic for "ethical judgments of Zidane's actions," because it's really frustrating to see anti-Zidane/anti-Materazzi statements in completely unrelated topics (this was one was about his MOTHER). Dead men's bells 15:48, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Zidane denies that remarks were racist?

I removed the claim that Zidane responded "no" when asked if the remarks were racist in nature. There were four references after this sentence. Some in English, some not. The English sources most certainly do not support this! Having put the others through Babelfish, I am fairly certain they don't say this. Given that most accounts of that interview omit this detail (which would be extremely notable, given the Fifa investigation) and explicitly say that he was extremely vague about Materazzi's comments, it seems improbable. I found no account of the TF1 interview which states this. Please don't readd without a better source. savidan^{(talk) (e@)} 06:52, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

The French sources don't make that claim. From what I've seen of the French interview on Canal1, he was never asked the question (the French article refers to "TF1," with which I'm not familiar). He does say that Matarazzi commented on his familly and his sister, however. Apparently the TF1 interview is different (and the one in which the claims are denied), which I am going to watch now. — ዮም | (Yom) | Talk • contribs • Ethiopia 07:31, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Having now watched the part of the interview referenced by the IP above (with "... et quand vous dites 'des paroles tres graves', est-ce que vous pouvez dire si elles sont d'ordre raciste, ...," etc.), I can say that the transcription above is correct, but not that he necessarily denied that it was racial. The ambiguity is the same as in the English translation. Below I've put the words of the Interviewer and those of Zidane in two parallel lines (and starting another 2 parallel lines when space runs out) to show when the words were said to show the ambiguity (as the answer isn't very clear):

Interviewer:"et quand vous dites 'des paroles,' au fond, 'tres graves', est-ce que vous pouvez dire

Zidan:.............................................................................................

Continued (2 - both are talking quickly, but interviewer faster):

Interviewer:si elles sont d'ordre raciste, si elles sont d'ordre familliale........................

Zidane:.................................................non,_____elles____sont - oui, c'est familiale,

Continued(3)

Interviewer:......................................

Zidane:en fait, je vous dirais quand on attaque votre mère, votre sœur..."

Translation: Interviewer: "and when you say 'some words,' deep down, 'very serious,' can you say if they're of a racist nature, if they're of a familial nature..."

Zidane: No, they are - yes, it's familial [in nature]. Indeed, I would say that when one attacks your mother, your sister..."

The Canal + interview is a bit different (time isn't an issue):

Interviewer: "Les tabloids anglais l'un [????] des italiens, où d'autres, ont des affaires, ça recoupe à peu pres ce que vous avez dites à demi-mots, les insultes qui concernait votre mère et votre sœur.

Zidane: "Oui, oui, oui, de toute façon je dir..je..je p..comme je vous ai dits, j'etait a dix minutes à fin de carrière"

Translation:

Interviewer: The English tabloids, that of [????], those of the Italians, or of others, they have things, it pieces together [literally re-cut] approximately what you told each other without having to spell things out, insults that concerned your mother and your sister.

Zidane: Yes, yes, yes, [yes's are spread out, not in a row], in any case, like I told you, I was 10 minutes away from the end of my career [i.e. so I had no reason to do so without provocation, as he says throughout this and the TF1 interview]

Take from it what you will. — ዮም | (Yom) | Talk • contribs • Ethiopia 08:17, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Yom, thanks a lot for reporting the important bits of the interviews. I also listened carefully to them. An important thing to notice about the Canal + interview (the second you report) is that the interviewer never mentioned the words "terrorist"... and that he was not posing a question to Zidane, but simply remarking that what Zidane had just said (that insults concerned mum and sister) was somehow in agreement with what the lip-readers had said. Note also that different lip-readers came up with wildly different readings. It's ironic that british lip-readers, as obsessed with terrorism as they are, came up with "son of a terrorist whore". A Brazilian TV channel, Globo, quoted lip-readers as saying Materazzi had twice called Zidane's sister a "whore" before launching an unspecified insult at the player himself... however others said that Materazzi wished an ugly death to Zidane's family and there were even more versions...

I personally think that the French media didn't really want to highlight Zidane's denial of racist insults, and in some cases (Le Monde) even gave incorrect accounts of what he had said (then they corrected their reports, but meanwhile lots of English sources had reported that he confirmed the "terrorist" thing). Italian media (not necessarily Berlusconi's ones...), conversely, have remarked Zidane quick answer in the TF1 interview. Plus they have remarked the Le Parisien sentence reported above in this discussion page. Of course this doesn't excuse Materazzi from calling someone "son (or brother) of a whore"... F4810 09:04, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

I think that this issue is not resolved yet. He does not deny the racist insult based on the two interviews. Also, it is possible that he considers that the insult is on base of religion. But still, the two interviews do not confirm that he denyed it. The questions were unclear and not directly about it. 14. July 12:38

Anybody can see it clearly in the TF1 video. As for why it hasn't been reported, I don't know, but it's plainly audible in the video. I don't really understand what the ambiguity is... When asked if he can say if they're racist/familal, says "no, they are - yes, familial." He changed sentences in mid-sentence. He didn't say "no, I can't say" or "no" at the end of a sentence. Does that eliminate the possibility that "terrorist" was used? No, it's possible that he didn't consider it such. But that's not an issue because the article doesn't say "Zidane denied the "terrorist" rumor." It says he responded in the negative to the racism question. If you're taking "can you say" literally, then you'd have to take his "yes, familial" answer the same way, because it was posed in the same question, when it's obvious he was agreeing that they were. 67.169.111.72 10:54, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Correct spelling?

So why is it that Zizou's first name, Zinedine, is spelled Zinédine on his own website? And why does LeMonde.fr also spell it Zinédine?

24.8.179.190 08:01, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

This is very simple. Because it is pronounced Zinédine (in French). Writing it without the accent would mean that in French it is pronounced Zin-uh-din rather than Zin-eh-din as it is properly pronounced. In France there is a policy to change the original spelling of surnames so that they are read (by French speakers) in the same way as they should be pronounced. This is true for all people of immigrant origin, be it from Eastern Europe, Spain or North Africa. --Guzman ramirez 11:23, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Actually Im not all that sure now whether Zinedine is pronounced Zin uh dine or zin eh dine in French... Maybe its a case of mispronounciation of the original arabic which has led to a wrong spelling of the proper french transliteration....or vice versa. Quite confused now:-)--Guzman ramirez 11:38, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

people understand that if you were in zidane's position you too would have reacted the same way. I'm tires of people insulting zidane, saying that he has humiliated himself, this is not true. what is true is that zidane has allowed the italians to win because of his lack of control, however that does not mean that the italian was right, in my opinion i blame him more. Zidane is great player, a greta person. 2006 world cup would be remeberd for zidane.

Clarifications

• In classical Arabic ---> pronounced Zainou D-din.
• In Darija (Maghrebi Arabic) ---> pronounced Zeen Eddin.
• In French ---> written Zinédine and pronounced Zeen(né)din (note the "né" spelling - same as in né). -- Szvest 11:55, 14 July 2006 (UTC) ^{Wiki me up™}

The "-u" ending is really for classical, but if you're equating Classical and MSA, it probably wouldn't be used. In MSA you only need to add the -u ending in the most formal of contexts, it's otherwise inherent, unlike the other cases (i.e. just be Zayn ad-Din). IPA of "ad" would probably something near IPA [a], though possibly near [ɛ]. Good comparisons, though. — ዮም | (Yom) | Talk • contribs • Ethiopia 16:45, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

POV

Content critical of Zidane keeps being removed. The last time, this happened with the necessary profanity, and a claim by the reverter that I lied about my references, while he doesn't even understand the language they are written in. See [5]. 1652186 14:43, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

I see you added the POV tag. Your explanation here suggests that the reason is because "content critical of Zidane keeps being removed". There is content critical of Zidane is currently on the main page, so your claim that content critical of Zidane keeps being removed is false.

However, I see the real argument for your addition of the POV tag is because YOUR particular edit of content that was critical of Zidane is no longer on the front page. Please make your case here in the talk page as to why the encyclopedic entry must include your particular edit, about articles written in Dutch and Belgian papers, in order not to receive the POV tag.

My comment would be that there have been thousands of editorials written across the globe, not only in Holland and Belgium, many of them critical of Zidane's actions. To include mention of them all would not be a good use of space. Currently, two French papers are cited. A statement mentioning that those were not the only two articles critical of Zidane would be appropriate, but listing all the articles worldwide that were so would not be very valuable.--DaveOinSF 15:07, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

My suggestion is to highlight some others without being verbose. Like "Zidane has also received considerable criticism from newspapers outside, including Switzerland's (swiss paper), Italian daily (whatever), Belgian periodical (yada yada), etc. Something that notes a few significant ones, then with citation links to the actual articles if people want to read. Dead men's bells 15:45, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Peacock Terms

This article contains an awful lot of peacock terms - "Zidane is often considered to be one of the best footballers of his generation and one of the greatest of all time." This statement seems totally unnecessary given the later paragraph that clearly establishes his CREDENTIALS, and lets the reader reach those conclusions for themselves - see WP:PEACOCK - Cbuhl79 15:42, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

I read WP:PEACOCK, and I would have to say that calling Zidane one of best footballers of all time is objectively a valid statement to make, especially given the lengthy list of his credentials. I would think the statements of your examples, as applied to Zidane, fall under this category.--DaveOinSF 16:31, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Doesn't that fall under [6] weasel words, though? Along the lines of "many consider" or "often thought of" and whatnot? Wouldn'tit be more effective to drop the ambiguity and cite, say, Time magazine, or some other notable magazine's list of sports greats/football players? I'm sure he's been named such and I think it'd be a bit more effective than "considered by many unnamed people somewhere"Dead men's bells 16:51, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Internet meme

Despite the controversial nature of the headbutt, it's rapidly become something of an internet meme, sporting facebook groups, myspace groups, chatroom discussions, and scores of youtube and google video edits and postings. I've added a section that mentions it, and will leave development of it to others.

I've also added an external link to the youtube search for "Zidane".

Almondwine 16:57, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Good, but references needed. Kahkonen 17:03, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

We could add a little regarding the headbutt causing quite a reaction on the net but we need some good references. here's a good list of news sites you may want to use.--Andeh 17:05, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

How many cards?

Are there anywhere statistics, how many cards Zidane (or any other player) has got? Zidane, 14 reds, but how many yellows? Kahkonen 17:02, 14 July 2006 (UTC)