Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Alex Kerr (loyalist)

Alex Kerr (loyalist)

Alex Kerr (loyalist) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)

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Reason Zoidberg262 (talk) 15:50, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

Firstly, this page should be deleted as 'Alex Kerr' is not a notable person as defined by Wikipedia standards. Secondly, there is no such person as 'Alex Kerr' from Northern Ireland during this period involved in the UDA, there is a person of a very similar name who was involved in the UDA until the organisation was proscribed which resulted in him resigning from said organisation. Thirdly, there is a Right to be Forgotten as established in the Google Spain case the material on this site is no longer relevant, it contains significant inaccuracies, and it is outdated, it relates to events in the early 1990's and before.Zoidberg262 (talk) 16:27, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

Delete — Preceding unsigned comment added by Zoidberg262 (talk • contribs) 16:10, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

• commentI don't think Right to be Forgotten applies to Wikipedia. @Zoidberg262: Who is the "person of a very similar name..."? Deunanknute (talk) 16:13, 16 February 2015 (UTC)
• Keep The article in question is well-sourced and well-written. The subject's notability has been established by the reliable sources provided by the page's creator. I speak as an editor who has created numerous articles on Northern Irish loyalists. Frankly the reasons given by the nominator for the article's deletion are nonsensical and I suggest the AfD tag is removed from the page ASAP.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 16:18, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

• Comment - the new European Proposal for General Data Protection Regulation applies to international companies who are active in the EU, and penalties can be applied to them for their actions in the EU, making this directive of global importance, therefore I respectfully disagree with Deunanknute, the right to be forgotten does apply here. The right has arisen from desires of individuals to "determine the development of their life in an autonomous way, without being perpetually or periodically stigmatized as a consequence of a specific action performed in the past."

Jeanne Boleyn- there should be a proper discussion, irregardless of your editorials of Northern Irish Loyalists. The sources consist of 2 books by the same author, neither of which are primarily about Mr Kerr.Zoidberg262 (talk) 16:27, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

• • Please sign your name after your comments. Thanks.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 16:26, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

• I am afraid the subjects 'notability' has not been established. 'Alex Kerr' is the incorrect person.Zoidberg262 (talk) 16:29, 16 February 2015 (UTC)
  • According to...you?--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 16:30, 16 February 2015 (UTC)
• There was an 'Alec Kerr' in the UDA prior to 1992, when it was not a proscribed organisation. There was no 'Alex Kerr'. Also how is the legal principle of the right to be forgotten nonsensical? Zoidberg262 (talk) 16:32, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

• What I meant about "Right to be Forgotten" is that I believe it applies to search engine results, not website content. Deunanknute (talk) 16:41, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

• The right to be forgotten principle is not confined to search engines, but to all data controllers. The right to be forgotten involves removing information that was publicly known at a certain time and not allowing third parties to access the information. Zoidberg262 (talk) 16:48, 16 February 2015 (UTC)
  • The sources all say Alex. I am waiting for you to provide a source to back up your claims Zoidberg262.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 16:54, 16 February 2015 (UTC)
    • For "Right to be Forgotten", doesn't the affected entity need to request the removal? Deunanknute (talk) 16:59, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

• Jeanne Boleyn in response to your comments regarding the article being well-sourced and well-referenced I would have to disagree with you. The article was claiming that Mr Kerr was a 'founder' of the LVF, this is just nonsense. The LVF Wikipedia page itself does not mention Mr Kerr, it only refers to Billy Wright establishing it after the McGoldrick murder. As a consequence of this unfounded association between Mr Kerr and the LVF Mr Kerr's Article 8 rights and Article 2 are being violated and has put his life at risk. I think your sources leave a lot to be desired. Zoidberg262 (talk) 16:58, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

• Valid point Deunanknute, where shall I send a signed form of authority? Zoidberg262 (talk) 17:01, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

• If all the sources say 'Alex' this supports my position, they are clearly inaccurate. Zoidberg262 (talk) 17:03, 16 February 2015 (UTC)
  • Where are YOUR sources to disprove that his name was Alex?!!!!!--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 17:08, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

• I'm not 100% certain, but [1] is probably the place to look.

Also, as you are indicating that you are, or are acting on behalf of Alex Kerr, I suggest you read WP:COI for information regarding conflict of interest, and not make any further edits to Alex Kerr, or other articles to which you are connected. Discussion/talk pages, and other non article pages are fine. Deunanknute (talk) 17:12, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

• Comment The current EU implementation of the Right to be forgotten applies only to links from search engines, not to the underlying text in news organization databases. Thus, the order in the original case required removal of links by Google but the newspaper was not required to remove the story from its online database. There is also the unresolved question of jurisdiction. For the Wikimedia Foundation's take, see [2]. 24.151.10.165 (talk) 17:42, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

• Ok, if people wish to continue to repost defamatory and libellous material, which does not even meet wikipedia criteria (i.e. being unsourced) so be it. Where are the sources which state that Kerr co-founded the LVF? Zoidberg262 (talk) 17:51, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

• I do not, nor have not, claimed to be representing, or being, Alex Kerr. Zoidberg262 (talk) 17:52, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

• How is this article about a 'notable' person? Zoidberg262 (talk) 17:57, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

• • Delete The article does use only 1 source primarily, and within that only 3 or 4 pages are cited at most, a second source is also used but it is by the same authors, also are they not specifically about Alex Kerr. The sources are also primarily in relation to other events or people. It does not appear that Alex Kerr has sufficient source material. Bonylad111 (talk) 18:07, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

• @Zoidberg262:I only cautioned you about COI because you asked where you could send a signed form of authority. IF the article is true, I believe it is probably notable enough based on the events/contributions described. I will seek more references if necessary. As it stands the article (and the original version) appears to primarily cite the books "UVF" and "UVA". Are you claming these works to be false, or incorrectly cited? Are there problems with other sources? Or is your primary concern the overall notability of Alex/Alec Kerr? Deunanknute (talk) 18:16, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

• The parts about the founding the LVF are completely untrue - Billy Wright was the sole founder of the LVF, in any books/newspaper articles there is 0 mention of Kerr. Which leads on to how can he be described as notable for being a member of a legal organisation (the UDA) up until 1992? The question of articles 2 and 8 violations remains unanswered by anyone. Zoidberg262 (talk) 18:24, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

• For example - "In early 1994 the UDA's Inner Council was made up of its six brigadiers - Kerr for South Belfast, Adair for West Belfast, Tom Reid for North Belfast, Gary Matthews for East Belfast, Billy McFarland for County Londonderry and north County Antrim and Joe English for Southeast Antrim. At the time English was attempting to build support for a ceasefire declaration by the Combined Loyalist Military Command. In this endeavour he was supported by Reid and Matthews but opposed vehemently by Adair." From Alex Kerr article. There is absolutely no sources for this section. And if it were true he would have been convicted for being a member of a proscribed organisation. The page is wide open for libel action. Zoidberg262 (talk) 18:30, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

• • I'm assuming that by "articles 2 and 8" you are referring to the "European Convention on Human Rights" treaty? I don't see how article 2 applies. As far as article 8 (and the entire treaty), from what I can tell applies only to governments, and even then, only to those that are members. Wikipedia being neither a government, nor European. Deunanknute (talk) 18:38, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

• Yes, of the ECHR - article 2 applies because this article is alleging that Kerr co-founded an illegal terrorist organisation which murdered people, clearly such association puts his life in danger... The convention rights have been codified into domestic UK law, and the courts have to read it in anyway. There is a horizontal effect so it applies to individuals/businesses as well as governments. It does not matter if Wikipedia is European or not. It is publishing material within EU jurisdiction. Zoidberg262 (talk) 18:53, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

• weak delete - only for reasons of questionable notability. Deunanknute (talk) 19:03, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

• delete - I do not have access to the books cited in the article so I cannot comment on them. Doing some research into this person and the UDA/LVF I can find no mention of Alex Kerr founding the LVF, so there are issues of fact in this article. Also, while he does appear to have been a member of the UDA I can find no articles in relation to any convictions, I could understand the articles inclusion if he had been involved in a terrorist event (bombing/ shooting etc) but I can find no source (reliable or not) linking him to anything. There appears to be many tens of thousands of people being members of the UDA during its peak should every member get a page? The UDA link has some mileage but in my humble opinion the current article appears to focus more on other people and events and I struggle to see it as a bibliography on this man. There are large parts which are unsourced, and the LVF sections are dubious at best. From my research the LVF was a breakaway faction of the UVF in the mid ulster area (20/30 miles south of Belfast) I can not find any concrete sources, in fact any sources linking Alex Kerr to LVF activities. The article in its current form should be removed as it does appear to contain libellous material and the subject is of very questionable notability. Jeanclaudarnie1779 (talk) 19:25, 16 February 2015 (UTC)