Talk:Civic nationalism

Please any comments or disccusion would be appreciated.

You know the most famous civic nationalist here in Canada was Pierre Trudeau, the leader of our liberal party. He was actually the first one who argued for civil nationalism, that the only nationlism we should feel is pride in defending human rights as he felt the English and French Canadians unending squabbles were unfruitful for the nation. He came up with the famous phrase "the state has no place in the bedrooms of the nation". lol. For the record Canda takes in more refugees than any country in the world and rather than assimilation we favor celebration of individual culture, so I guess we probably are the world's strongest proponent of civic nationalism

Page name

"Liberal nationalism" is more common than "civic nationalism". Page should be moved. Ostap 01:08, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

As-of-yet undiscussed page merge

I disagree with the merge proposal, that was given without reason, due to the fact that this article refers to a specific phenomenon within nationalism. The fact one of the books cited on this article is called 'Liberal nationalism' testifies to the existence of the genre. Munci (talk) 22:06, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

Agree with Munci. There's enough material to support separate articles on the different forms of nationalism - cultural, ethnic, liberal and all the rest.--Pondle (talk) 22:37, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

I also agree, there are many different types of nationalism, Wikipedia doesn't reflect this very well at the moment and needs articles detailing the different types. --Joowwww (talk) 22:38, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

• Merge The only basis for the article is a book the argues that nationalism can be reconciled with liberal principles, holding promise for reconciliation of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.[1] Definitely a hook for original research as editors will list every political movement that could possibly be described as liberal and nationalist. It is further confusing because nationalism was originally liberal (although not in the sense used in the book) Liberal Nationalism. In case the merger proposal fails, I suggest changing the title to Liberal Nationalism (book). TFD (talk) 22:51, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

Comment I think that Civic nationalism would be a better title for this article - I remember having to write an essay on the differences between 'civic' and 'ethnic' forms of nationalism. Basically, the thesis is that civic nations have ideological (as opposed to ethnic) origins and often celebrate this in their public culture: hence civic national-ism. There are sources out there, these ideas have been discussed by (amongst others) Anthony D. Smith who is well-known within the field.--Pondle (talk) 23:03, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

I see that civic nationalism (which re-directs here) is sometimes called liberal nationalism, so that would be a good reason to re-name the article. However, glancing through the literature, it seems that civic nationalism is normally contrasted with ethnic nationalism, which is a good reason for combining the two in one article (e.g., under nationalism). Any thoughts? TFD (talk) 23:40, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

At the moment there is a summary discussion of both civic and ethnic nationalism at the main article.--Pondle (talk) 14:10, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

Just change it. Period. end of story. K, thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.153.214.136 (talk • contribs)

• Strongly oppose. I would strongly oppose any measure to merge the two. Clearly, they are very different ideologies, clearly demarcated in both the literature and the current political sphere in almost all countries. There is not just a single book, but quite a large body of literature and academic work on the subject. Bastin 13:29, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

"Clearly demarcated"? Could you point out which of your sources does that. It seems that the term means something different in every source. TFD (talk) 14:14, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

• Apparently Encyclopaedia Britannica seems to discuss liberal nationalism on its own right. Cogiati (talk) 20:01, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

• Why merge it with nationalism instead of liberalism. Do not merge, it is not the same thing. Just like national conservatism and conservative liberalism. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.216.162.217 (talk) 21:48, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

• Strongly oppose. -- There are dramatic differences between civic / liberal natinalism and ethnic nationalism. Rename to civic nationalism. Gordon Ecker (talk) 23:16, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

English Democrats

• Is there a good reason why the English Democrats have been excluded from the Liberal Nationalism Page, if not then please can they be added? - angon450*

The English Democrats Party is probably not seen as liberal. TFD (talk) 03:14, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

Who does not see the English Democrat Party as liberal, and what would be the reason for that? (talk) 18:56, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

No one describes them as liberal and furthermore even if they did, you would a need a source that calls them "liberal nationalists", not just that they have been called liberal and nationalist. TFD (talk) 18:18, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

Can you please confirm whether this page saying that the Scottish National Party and Plaid Cymru are liberal nationlists? (talk) 20:22, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

I did not put them in and do not need to defend their inclusion. TFD (talk) 19:33, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the explanation (talk) 09:12, 17 October 2010 (UTC)

Is there a good reason as to why the addition of the English Democratic Party was removed from this page? (talk) 19:00, 18 October 2010

If is because I did not provide a source then here is a list to candidates: http://www.voteenglish.org/english-democrats-candidates/, just click on the link and you can see the candidates. (talk) 19:15, 18 October 2010

Please excuse my error, I typed 'English Democratic Party' above, I meant to say 'English Democrat Party' —Preceding unsigned comment added by Angon450 (talk • contribs) 18:23, 18 October 2010

You need a source that calls them "liberal nationalists". TFD (talk) 01:06, 19 October 2010 (UTC)

I do find it perculiar that neither Plaid Cymru or SNP require an article describing them as 'Liberal Nationalists', whereas the English Democrat Party do require an article. I have supplied a link which demonstrates that the English Democrats have candidates who are from Malaysia, India (a Sikh), Ed Abrams, who is Jewish to name just three. The EDP have candidates from more diverse ethnic origins than the SNP. As regards to policies, they are also similar to the SNP (with the exception of being Euro-Sceptic), which is neither here nor there when it comes to being Liberal, so that should not be an issue. The EDP as actually less hard line than the SNP when it comes to breaking up the UK. SNP are campaigning for independance, whereas the EDP just want a reform of the Barnett Formula. If this is not enough to include the EDP on this web site I will have to assume that there is some sinister reason to exclude them from this page. A second reason is that maybe current contributers are not sure about political idealogy. I see that the BNP are described as being 'far-right'. The BNP are National Socialists, and actually borrow more from left wing policy than right wing policy, but that is another debate and not one I am particularly interested in getting involved in. Angon450 (talk) 09:19, 19 October 2010 (UTC)(talk) 10:18, 19 October 2010 (UTC)Angon450 (talk) 09:19, 19 October 2010 (UTC)

To The Four Deuces, what is stopping me removing the last paragraph from this article since there are no sources saing that the SNP and Plaid Cymru are "liberal nationalists"? (talk) 21:05, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

Nothing. TFD (talk) 20:25, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

I do not wish to make changes without coming to a sensible agreement, I simply read this page and spotted some inconsistancy. From what I see the EDP is the English equivalent to SNP and Plaid Cymru. I doubt there is any web page describing the EDP as being liberal nationalists, but then I doubt there are pages describing SNP and Plaid Cymru as liberal nationalists either, and to be frank I cannot really be bothered to look. The best way would be to read their political manifestos. Angon450 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Angon450 (talk • contribs) 21:06, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

Is this discussion in any way related to the proposed merge? If not, it should be split off into a separate section. -- Gordon Ecker (talk) 21:19, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

Hello Gordon, how are discussions 'split off'? -- User:Angon450 (talk) 13:25:00, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

Addition of English Democrats to this Page

Can someone give me a good reason why Plaid Cymru and the SNP are on this page but the English Democrats have not been included? If the English Democrats have simply been missed out then that I can add a short sentence including them Angon450 (talk)

I wouldn't consider the English Democracts to be liberal nationalists. More like right-wing nationalists. --Joowwww (talk) 13:08, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

Please rfead the section above where this has already been explained to Angon450. TFD (talk) 14:17, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

Is your opinion more valuable then others then Joowwww? why would you describe the English Democrats as right-wing nationalists?'Angon450

@The Four Deuces, you explained nothing Angon450

Question, why is the SNP and Plaid Cymru described as being 'Liberal Nationalists' but the English Democrats aren't. Sensible answers only please Angon450 —Preceding undated comment added 17:45, 5 November 2010 (UTC).

The EDs are not included because there are no reliable sources to support its inclusion. I do not know why the SNP and PC are listed. TFD (talk) 18:02, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

In that case wouldn't it be sensible and fair to treat all political parties fairly and scrutinise them in the same way? If there are no reliable sources supporting the inclusion of the SNP, or PC as being 'Liberal Democrats' then surely they should not be included in this article, do you agree or disagree?Angon450 —Preceding undated comment added 07:12, 6 November 2010 (UTC).

If no one can present any evidence that the SNP and PC are 'Liberal Nationalists' by 14/11/2010 I will remove them from this section [Angon450 16:00, 10 November 2010] —Preceding unsigned comment added by Angon450 (talk • contribs)

Obvious misconception

This is an article about "civic nationalism" - simply meaning to united all ethnics under one nation. And most of these examples given here are the political wing of separatist/terrorist organizations (IRA, ETA, Flemish, ...), which oppose this concept. Absurd. -- 188.22.174.54 (talk) 22:48, 14 March 2015 (UTC)