Talk:Stephen Barrett

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October 2005 – July 15 2006 20 July 2006 – 27 July 2006: Criticism, credentials

Undiscussed removal of NPOV tag

I have reverted the undiscussed removal of the NPOV tag. Such a removal should be done only after discussion and as a consensus decision. Tags of this type are jealously guarded. They aren't just a part of the article, that can be removed by one editor acting alone.

There are still many areas that are not consensus viewpoints.

1. The article has a disproportionately large amount of critical material, simply by volume, making it apparent to any new reader the POV of many of the editors. Some of that material is editorializing that extrapolates from facts into OR, instead of simply presenting the facts and letting readers go to the references and the links and decide for themselves. Even the references contain large quotes. I'm especially thinking of ref. 26 (King Bio), where the text in the article and the text in the reference duplicate some ideas. The idea should be summarized very briefly in the article, and the reference should show the citation and provide a link.
2. There is still the issue of the relevance of board certification to his activities as a quackbuster (a term he rejects and dislikes). Its relevance should be seen in the light of the fact that far less than half of MDs were board certified back in 1967, and it never affected his career as a psychiatrist. That matter is still being hotly debated here at this very moment, and thus the removal of the NPOV tag is very inappropriate. The discussion of the relevance of board certification hasn't really even begun to discuss its relevance to his work with Quackwatch and anti-quackery activism, but it has improperly been applied to it. The issue should properly be focused on its relevance to his work as a practicing psychiatrist, which is one matter, which doesn't apply to his anti-quackery activities - another matter entirely. He is being held to a standard for one thing that doesn't apply to the other. Others who aren't even MDs are also experts in healthcare consumer protection and anti-quackery activities. They aren't MDs or board certified. His qualifications for that type of activity wouldn't even be addressed by board certification!
3. To muddy the waters even more, that he even "uses" his MD credentials is often mentioned, as if that were improper. The guy is an MD, and will always be an MD. It is not improper under any condition for him to use MD after his name. That is not improper. It helps to identify him. It may or may not say something about whether or not he is qualified for any given activity. It all depends on what that activity is. Merely being an MD (even with a board certification) does not qualify one for his activities. While it helps, those qualifications are gained through experience, research, investigation, and plenty of help from other experts in various fields. There is no degree or board certification that covers those qualifications. (Maybe universities should start a degree program leading to the degree of CP.D. (Docter of Consumer Protection....;-) Course work should start with critical thinking, logic, statistics, fundamentals of EBM, ethics, consumer protection law, etc.)

Those are just a few things that come to mind. They are not minor points of contention. Therefore, until they are settled, the NPOV tag should remain. -- Fyslee 20:33, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

I removed the NPOV tag because of this comment above. It didn't look "jealously guarded" and I didn't see any rationale for it. But now you've listed it. As for establishing the credibility (or lack thereof) of someone who makes it their professional business to attack the credibility of others, it is highly relevant and not POV to focus on it. These are not minor or insignificant. Stbalbach 02:35, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Stbalbach makes a valid point which I have tried to make for a while. " As for establishing the credibility (or lack thereof) of someone who makes it their professional business to attack the credibility of others, it is highly relevant and not POV to focus on it. These are not minor or insignificant. " I fully agree that it is not POV, however each time an item is not favorable to the subject of the article it is critizised by a group of editors as POV. Thanks Stbalbach. NATTO 04:06, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Dr. Barrett's qualifications in alternative and complementary medicine

The question about his qualifications in alternative and complementary medicine has been asked. From reading his C.V and looking at his web sites, he does have a medical degree ( M.D. ), was qualified and licenced ( until 1993 ) as a psychiatrist. I have not seen any formal training or qualifications in any alternative or complementary modality. He does not appear to have any training in homeopathy, accupuncture, herbal therapy or any other for that matter. He does not appear to have practiced any of the alternative modalities as a stand alone modality or included any of them in his practice as a psychiatrist. It is difficult to claim expertise in a field when you have no formal training in it or any clinical experience. He could claim expertise in psychiatry but even there, he was never Board certified...

Of course I may have missed relevant information, if any is posted on his web sites. If anyone has evidence that he has any formal training in any alternative or complementary medicine, please post it on the talk page. NATTO 02:10, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Training in a specific medical area is not necessary to read and critique studies and information on the subject. In fact, I doubt that any doctor would go out of her way to spend money and time training in a field she believes is quackery. That does not mean that she/he is not qualified to discuss it.jawesq 02:41, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

NATTO, I agree with jawesq. You are implying that one can only be an expert in the area of training. Many scientist switch fields and can be world class in a new field. The point of a science degree is you learn the scitentific method and you learn to think critically. As far as I am concerned any biologist could look at the data available for the effectiveness of alternative medicine and determine if the conclusions are valid. It seems that Barrret's expertise comes from being familiar with the claims of alternative medicine. He is in a position to judge these claims and interpret how they compare with similar therapies in the medical field. David D. (Talk) 03:05, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

That is not what I implied. I simply meant that to be an expert you need to have expert knowledge in a field, knowledge that is way above the average person. You can get that knowledge through formal training, relevant practical experience either in a clinical or research setting, ect.... Otherwise anyone could claim to be an expert in anything they wish... Dr. Barrett does not have any formal training in alternative medicine nor any practical, clinical experience that I could find. You do not become an expert just by reading " stuff ", relevant real life experience is relevant. As far as science is concerned, science is a tool with it's limitation and is not the ultimate solution to everything. There is more to health than just science. He trained as a psychatrist and could claim expertise in that field, however the vast majority of his peers being Board certified makes it difficult for him today to have high credibility in that field since he failed the Board exam. NATTO 04:18, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

It depends on what the offered testimony is. jawesq 13:51, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Different tack re:Board certification

Here is the current version.

• Barrett has appeared in court as a medical expert. Barrett failed one part of his medical board certification exams in 1967 and never retook them; thus Barrett was never board certified. [1] According to the ABMS about 81% of physicians were Board certified when Barrett retired in 1993. (pdf).

The version I had suggested above:

• Critics cite that Barrett failed part of his medical board certification exams in 1967 and never retook them (Barrett et al 2006) as evidence that he cannot claim to be a medical expert. [2]

First, the top version fails POV and WP:OR. You start with a statement and follow with two facts. The fact he failed the board exam is relevent. You have then used research to track down the 81% stat when he retired. You have then placed these two facts together to paint a picture with respect to the first comment.

You seem to be under the impression I am against the inclusion of the 81%. I am not. I am against the current form in which it is written. As written it is clearly the authors opinion. You need to find a quote for this connection to be made without failing POV and WP:OR. The quote must satisfy the criteria laid out in WP:RS.

Personally i don't see how the version i propose waters down this statement at all, despite the fact there is no inclusion of the 81%. Lets use this section to discuss the content. We need to find a compromise that is acceptable to all editors not just now but in the future too. It is the only way to maintain a stable artcile. David D. (Talk) 02:57, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

I suggest a review of expert witness. "An expert witness is a witness, who by virtue of education, profession, publication or experience, is believed to have special knowledge of his subject beyond that of the average person, sufficient that others may officially (and legally) rely upon his opinion."jawesq 03:19, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Those links are just for reference now re: the comment below. I'm not sure what you mean by this expert witness comment, could you expand on that thought? David D. (Talk) 03:24, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Barrett's credibility as an expert witness was only questioned in terms of his expertise in matters of law and in matters of FDA regulation. His testimony was questioned because of his direct interest in the outcome of one case in which he testified. His credibility as a medical expert has not, to my knowledge, been successfully challenged. Jokestress 03:37, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Interesting. So those that want to include this will have to find a better reference otherwise we just cut it out. David D. (Talk) 03:41, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

I do not see how Barrett could possibly hold himself out as a legal expert. I don't know about his expertise in (what context of) FDA regulation. jawesq 04:33, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

This is getting off topic for this section. i have sectioned off the legal discussion below. Can we focus on how the board certification issue will be written in the main article? At present we need to find a reference where his medical expertise has been questioned. If we want to use the 81% data and his failed board exams we need that reference to use that data as an argument for him not being an expert witness. Is there anything like that available? I see you have offered some text from the http://www.healthfreedomlaw.com/ web site but I see no mention of the 81%. Are there other sources that reference it? (David D. (Talk) 15:31, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

I do not think this website should be cited as a reference for Barrett's medical expertise, and I did not suggest that it be used. I dont believe his failing psychiatry boards has anything to do with his qualifications as an MD in areas that are unrelated to psychiatry. jawesq 16:50, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

So what is the sentence above trying to say with respect to his failure of the board exam and his expertise? It would be geat if there is a documented quote from one of his critics to make this point unambiguous. David D. (Talk) 16:58, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Another issue is that i am not sure if the healthfreedomlaw web page will be acceptable as a reliable source. You might want to get a second opinion from other wikipedians who are more familiar with where the lines are drawn. Or better yet courst transcripts. (David D. (Talk) 15:31, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

I already stated that this website is not appropriate (reliable) as a reference here (see above). I added it purely for discussion puposes. Again, I do not think that failing his boards is at all relevant to his medical expertise relating to non-psychiatric testimony.jawesq 18:00, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

I apologise, i missed that. But aren't his critic citing the boards as a critique. At least that is what is currently in the article. Are they any statements in the court transcripts that can be used? Or should we just remove this point if no appropriate source is available? David D. (Talk) 18:05, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes, they are. I don't think it is a valid argument, unless Barrett proposes to testify as an expert on psychiatry, which that lawyer claimed he did. "This was a major revelation since Barrett had provided supposed 'expert testimony' as a psychiatrist and had testified in numerous court cases as such." Then it would be relevant. Now there are entirely too many indents, so let's start a new topic.jawesq 18:11, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Negrete's site is a verifiable source, which is not necessarily a reliable source. If court documents can only be found on that site, it might be appropriate to use the site as a source, but considering all the spin that Negrete usually puts on the site (making it unreliable as an interpreter of what actually transpired in court), it would always be preferable to cite and link to the original documents on a government or state site. -- Fyslee 14:53, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

• Below is a quote from lawyer Carlos Negrete where he is openly critical of Barrett's qualifications as an expert in his field or in the legal field:

" For years, Barrett has touted himself as a “medical expert” on “quackery” in healthcare and has assisted in dozens of court cases as an expert. Also, Barrett has testified that was called upon by the FDA, FTC and other governmental agencies for his purported expertise. He was the subject of many magazine interviews, including Time Magazine and featured on television interviews on ABC’s 20/20, NBC’s Today Show and PBS. He has gained media fame by his outspoken vocal disgust and impatience over natural or non-medical healthcare, including his criticisms of two time Nobel Prize winner Linus Pauling.... At trial, under a heated cross-examination by Negrete, Barrett conceded that he was not a Medical Board Certified psychiatrist because he had failed the certification exam. This was a major revelation since Barrett had provided supposed “expert testimony” as a psychiatrist and had testified in numerous court cases as such. Also, Barrett had said that he was a “legal expert” even though he had no formal legal training.

Linus Pauling? Is Barrett now an expert in chemistry? Barrett should also not hold himself out as a legal expert. Period. This is worth discussing in the article, because holding himself out as a legal expert would be itself quackery (and quickly nixed by any judge).jawesq 04:33, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

• Linus Pauling is a nobel price winner in chemistry. And yes a judge did nix the " legal expert " issue. A California Superior Court judge. NATTO 04:48, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I am well familiar with who Linus Pauling is. I am shocked that Barrett would attempt to comment on him. That takes gall. That was my point.jawesq 05:13, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Why in your opinion does it take gall to comment on Linus Pauling? How can you claim that Pauling is an expert on Vit C physiology and heath issues but then claim Barrett cannot have opinion on homeopathic medicine? This seems like an example of double standards? David D. (Talk) 16:11, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

I think of Pauling as a chemist. I assumed Barrett was referencing to that. I wasn't even aware of Pauling's promotion of Vit. C. jawesq 16:47, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Pauling was interested in many different things. At the end of his career he was a huge proponent for high doses of vit C to cure many aliments, including cancer. i assume that was the body of work that Barrett was reffering to when he was critical of Pauling. David D. (Talk) 16:53, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Information on Pauling's unfortunate activities can be found here. -- Fyslee 15:06, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

• David D. If I have to choose between the advice of a top scientist, twice winner of the Nobel price and the advice of a psychiatrist who failed his Board certification... Let me think ?....NATTO 18:23, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Depends. Kary Mullis won a Nobel prize. Do you agree with his postion on HIV? David D. (Talk) 18:54, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

• I am not informed enough at this point about the positions of Kary Mullis to agree or disagree with his position on HIV however I know enough about Vit-C as a safe and effective anti-oxidant and it's many benefits again oxidative stress and free radical damage to agree with Linus Pauling about the health benefits of Vit-C. NATTO 21:24, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
  • But many don't agree, especially with regard to the huge doses that he specified. Crededitals are great but that is not the whole story. This is why it is wrong to focus on one aspect of someones training. Anyone can get a Ph.D. if they want it (or M.D.). It is definitely a indicator of someone who has the potential to be well informed, and possibly be an expert, but it is not the whole story. The reverse argument can also be made. This is my only reason not to allow the article to get bogged down in critiquing minor details but look at the whole picture.

For your reference, Mullis does not agree that HIV is the cause of AIDS. He along with Peter Duesberg, a Berkeley professor and accomplished scientist, are quite vocal on this subject.

We're getting off topic again. How can we correct the sentence above to something that you are happy with. Do you have a source or quote that will allow the 81% to not be characterised as original reasearch? David D. (Talk) 21:40, 28 July 2006

(UTC)

• David D. Please see below for a quote from lawyer Carlos Negrete:

" For years, Barrett has touted himself as a “medical expert” on “quackery” in healthcare and has assisted in dozens of court cases as an expert. Also, Barrett has testified that was called upon by the FDA, FTC and other governmental agencies for his purported expertise. He was the subject of many magazine interviews, including Time Magazine and featured on television interviews on ABC’s 20/20, NBC’s Today Show and PBS. He has gained media fame by his outspoken vocal disgust and impatience over natural or non-medical healthcare, including his criticisms of two time Nobel Prize winner Linus Pauling.... At trial, under a heated cross-examination by Negrete, Barrett conceded that he was not a Medical Board Certified psychiatrist because he had failed the certification exam. This was a major revelation since Barrett had provided supposed “expert testimony” as a psychiatrist and had testified in numerous court cases as such. Also, Barrett had said that he was a “legal expert” even though he had no formal legal training. The most damning testimony before the jury, under the intense cross-examination by Negrete, was that Barrett had filed similar defamation lawsuits against almost 40 people across the country within the past few years and had not won one single one at trial. During the course of his examination, Barrett also had to concede his ties to the AMA, Federal Trade Commission (FTC) and Food & Drug Administration (FDA)." [3] The issue of Board certification is a key issue of his criticism of Dr. Barrett. The percentage of Board certified M.D. in 1993 is relevant as related information in the same way that other editors have grafted text into paragraphs that were not quoted in the original source. For example the phrase : Judges have noted that his position as a public figure has weakened his ability to defend himself, since the plaintiff in such libel cases is required to show "actual malice," per the precedent in New York Times v. Sullivan, which states, "Because of the extremely high burden on the plaintiff, and the difficulty in proving essentially what is inside a person's head, such cases rarely, if ever prevail against public figures." It is in a totally unrelated case to Dr. Barrett but I do not havea problem because it offers valid information on the issue. NATTO 00:45, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

I think Mullis was used as an example. And I would daresay most scientists DO believe that HIV causes AIDS, so it seems an apt example. I won't chime in on David's question, since I am unfamiliar with what you all are talking about.jawesq 00:28, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

• I realized it was just an example that is why I said I could not either agree or disagree because I did not have enough information. It is also not directly related to the article. As for Vit-C ,there are also many who agree with Linus Pauling and there is also good research to support his position. I also know numerous qualified M.D. who agrees, including cardiologists and oncologists. Dr. Thomas Levy has written a book with numerous scientific references on the use of high dose IV-C.Certainly to include Linus Pauling on a list of people that are not recommendable because you do not agree with the beneficial effects of IV-C is at the very least a one sided approach. In any case that is not the topic of the article. NATTO 00:45, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

• Natto, I'm not quite sure what point you are addressing with that quote. Can you be more explicit?

With regard to Pauling, my point is that just because someone is an accomplished scientist, it does not stop them having ideas that are almost completely unaccepted or at the best on the fringe. I think it is clear that Pauling was on the fringe with his vitamin C ideas and may still be. I have not seen any solid work in the area that would convince me it is true.

Mullis is the same, great thinking to come up with PCR but off the deep end with HIV. Another good example is Fred Hoyle a highly accomplished physicist who then came up with the the argument against evolution that uses the retrospective probability argument, commonly represented by the analogy of how unlikely it is for a tornado to build a jumbo jet from a junk yard. These are all good examples of great scientist who have rather less than great ideas towards the ends of their career.

Given what Pauling was saying about Vit C, it is valid to criticise his work. Paulings ideas should not be protected by his outstanding reputation in the field of structural biology. All ideas should be challenged, that is the whole point of science. The argument from authority should never be held as meaningful from a scientific basis. Likewise the out of the box thinking of non established scientists or enthusiatic amateurs should not be shoved aside (although they are likely to be eld to stronger scrutiny). Ideas live and die through observations that are repeatedly consistent with the model.

In summary, there is nothing strange about Barrett, being critical of Pauling. This does not demonstrate arrogance, but rahter conventional wisdom , given the current data sets available. Certainly it does not prove that Barrett does not know his stuff, which seemed to be the argument that some were trying to make. David D. (Talk) 21:06, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

break off the legal stuff

The most damning testimony before the jury, under the intense cross-examination by Negrete, was that Barrett had filed similar defamation lawsuits against almost 40 people across the country within the past few years and had not won one single one at trial. During the course of his examination, Barrett also had to concede his ties to the AMA, Federal Trade Commission (FTC) and Food & Drug Administration (FDA)." [4] NATTO 04:03, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

I see the problem with his ties to the AMA, since the AMA is a lobbying group for medical doctors.jawesq 04:33, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree. NATTO 04:48, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

His many lawsuits looks like an abuse of process. jawesq 05:33, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Keep in mind that we still haven't seen a reliable source (only a verifiable one) for the claim of AMA, FTC, and FDA ties. Negrete is a very hostile source. What is the true nature of those ties, if any? He says it in a spin doctored manner, to imply an improper connection. We cannot just take his word for it, without seeing the original testimony.

That the AMA is a "lobbying group" is no secret. In fact it can't be any other way. All professional associations are "lobbying groups," including the ACA, APTA, ADA, AVMA, etc. It's not odious. -- Fyslee 11:27, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Court case citations

If anyone cites a court case, please take the time to look up how to do it. I have observed many citations in this article are not at all the way court cases should be cited. Here is an example of an improperly cited memorandum:

STEPHEN J. BARRETT, M.D., Plaittiff - Appellant, v. CARLOS F. NEGRETE; et at., Defendants - Appellees.] No. 04-55193 D.C. No. CV -02-0221 O-JML; No. 03-56663 D.C. No. CY -02-0221 O-JML. Filed Memorandum filed March 14, 2005.jawesq 03:18, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

If you supply the correct citation for that memorandum here, I'll put it in, or you can correct it yourself if you prefer. Jokestress 03:38, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

This is one example. Here is a reference for citing court cases, or other legal documents:

http://www.law.cornell.edu/citation/

The example above appears to be a memorandum, not a court case. And from the way it is cited above, I would not know how to report it. It would take me some time to sort it out, since I do not have much experience citing to memorandums. However, this is how I would probably do it, without searching for more information:

Barrett v. Negrete, et at (Mem. No. 04-55193 D.C. No. CV -02-0221 O-JML; No. 03-56663 D.C.; No. CY -02-0221 O-JML, March 14, 2005)

I don't guarantee this is accurate, but I think it was better than before. I may look this up but not tonight!

Court cases are a bit easier...
An example:

Edmond v. Goldsmith, 183 F.3d 659, 660 (7th Cir. 1999), aff'd, 531 U.S. 31 (2000).

First names, titles are not used.
F.3d is the reporter, 183 is the volume, and 659 is the first page the case appears in the reporter, and 660 would be the 'pinpoint' or page the reference is found on.
Then '7th Cir.' is the 7th Circuit (federal) court. and 1999 is, of course the year.
This case ruling was affirmed in a 2000 US Supreme Court case. (2000) indicates US SUpreme Court.jawesq 05:08, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Maybe I will tackle some of this, but not tonight. I could use some brush-up on legal citations. jawesq 05:14, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Interesting reading

From Negrete's website (Law offices of Negrete) http://www.healthfreedomlaw.com/

King Bio, like many other homeopathic and supplement companies targeted by NCAHF in similar lawsuits, refused to capitulate to any sort of settlement with Barrett and NCAHF. Instead, Dr. King decided to take the lead and defend his own integrity and that of his company by deciding to "have his day in court" and taking the case to trail.

The trial took place on October, 2001 in Los Angeles, California. The Law Offices of Carlos F. Negrete and Carlos F. Negrete provided support and assistance for the trial.

Under cross-examination of NCAHF’s witnesses at the trial, it was revealed that NCAHF had never tested any of the Dr. King products or even conducted any sort of scientific study. Something which Barrett and NCAHF have steadfastly argued should be performed by all supplement manufacturers and alternative therapists if they are to be recognized by the likes of NCAHF and Barrett.

After NCAHF presented its case with little or no real evidence, Dr. King’s attorneys requested that the court end the case and rule in its favor. The trial court sided with Dr. King and awarded a judgment in favor of King Bio and Dr. King. NCAHF’s case was so weak and lacking of evidence that Dr. King and King Bio did not even have to present it full case in defense before the judge ruled.

Despite the overwhelming defeat at trial, NCAHF decided to challenge the judge’s decision and filed an appeal before the Court of Appeal in California.

During the appeal process, NCAHF’s attorney, Morse Mehrban, was joined by another purported "consumer watchdog" attorney who fights against alternative therapies and supplements, Mark Boling, on behalf of a little known organization called Consumer Justice Center ("CJC"). CJC filed a "friend of the court brief" in support of NCAHF’s appeal.

NCAHF and CJC argued that the trial court was wrong and that existing law should be changed to allow plaintiffs, such as NCAHF, to bring lawsuits with little or no evidence against a targeted company and, thereafter, force the targeted company to defend itself on the basis of an accusation alone. The Court of appeal was not persuaded that such a change in law was appropriate or logical.

The Law Offices of Carlos F. Negrete represented Dr. King and King Bio in the appeal and argued that the trial court correctly found in favor of Dr. King and King Bio and that it was not proper under California law or the United States Constitution that a plaintiff, such as NCAHF, could irresponsibly file a lawsuit without any evidence against a product and its manufacturer. Negrete argued that it would be irresponsible and against free enterprise to allow an individual to file a lawsuit without any evidence of wrongdoing with just a couple of hundred dollars in a filing fee, thereby subjecting a victim defendant to spend as much as hundreds of thousands of dollars in defense costs. All because someone could point their finger at what they did not understand or believe in.

In its Opinion, the Court of Appeals agreed with King and Negrete. Specifically, the Court of Appeals found that NCAHF "presented no evidence that King Bio’s products were not safe and effective, relying instead on a general attack on homeopathy, made by witnesses who had no knowledge of, or experience with, King Bio’s products, and who were found to be biased and unworthy of credibility"

And, in an more remarkable validation, the Court of Appeals ordered that their Opinion be "published" as a precedent setting case in the official reports of the State of California. This is the first opinion of its kind as to homeopathy and the issues raised during the appeal. It will undoubtedly be discussed by many legal scholars and cited in cases to follow in the future.

jawesq 05:50, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Dear jawesq. It is definitely interesting and I agree with your other comment about abuse of process. Dr. King did not bow to legal intimidation and the judge, not only found in his favor but was clearly critical of Barrett and co. questioning his credibility and expertise. All the above is well documented and proven with reliable source. I also agree that letting people believe that you have legal expertise when you are not really qualified is highly questionable, especially if you are in the business of judging others and their use of alternative health related modalities. As I mentioned earlier Dr. Barrett has very little training in law and no formal qualifications. He has no formal training and no formal qualification in any of the health modalities he is highly critical of, presenting only one side of the story to his readers, in the guise of providing quality information. He as no relevant practical experience in any of the health modalities he is critical of and while formally trained as a psychiatrist, he failed the Board certification. All the while he appointed himself a medical and legal expert on quackery, testyfing in court on behalf of the NCAHF or providing advice to lawyers taking legal action againsts practitioners and companies the NCAHF considered fraudulent and quacks. The King Bio case is a very good example. NATTO 18:19, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

I think his credentials need to be mentioned, since they are the basis of his 'business'. jawesq 19:54, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I agree. In this case it is more a lack of credentials. If a person choose an activity where he or she is going to be highly critical of numerous health professionals and the modalities they practice, that person should have a very good grasp of these modalities and be highly credible. It is not enough to post negative information supporting a point of view while withholding positive or supportive information, while claiming as your mission to provide accurate and quality information. I do not doubt that there is some cases of fraud in any profession but that is not a reason to as they say, throw the baby with the water.NATTO 21:32, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

With so many lawsuits either lost or pending appeal, Dr. Barrett must have a hefty legal bill. I have not seen any information on his web sites regarding the ongoing legal costs involved and how the money is obtained. NATTO 01:01, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

The same Negrete quotation has now been cited four times this week on this talk page. Rather than a fifth rehashing of the same website text, let's figure out what editors think needs to be put in the article that isn't there. No one is disputing that challenges to Barrett's credentials should be included. However, about 90% of the text attacking Barrett's credentials comes from Bolen and Negrete websites, who have both been involved in litigation with Barrett. While Negrete's summation is useful, we need to rely on published court decisions as primary texts, not his analysis/interpretation. It's clear when going back to the original court papers that he has in places embellished or spun the original text to make his point. And yes, I know Barrett does the same thing. Again, that's why these websites are not as reliable or useful as published legal decisions in getting the article to conform to NPOV.

Well, the discussion page is very long, and I have also said repeatedly that this does not meet a reliability standard as a reference (unless it is an opinion only). jawesq 01:14, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

I am also wondering if the earlier decision to present the litigation chronologically would be better explained to casual readers if each key figure was discussed in a section: Clark, Bolen, Negrete, Koren, Fonorow, etc. Thoughts? Jokestress 01:10, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

It depends on how many parties there are. I'd say there are probably too many to do this. However, it is long and rambling as it is, so something should be done.jawesq 01:14, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

• I agree with jawesq about the need for good sources, especially court documents. In the Negrete statement, the court documents available do support the basis for his comments, even if he has put a spin on it. jawesq above commentary on the King Bio case is well structured and to the point.

While Bolen and Negrete are well known to be critical of Dr. Barrett and the NCAHF, there are others as well. Please see this letter to the president of Loma Linda University by Dr. Julian M. Whitaker, MD [5]. Dr. Whitaker is asking Dr. Lyn Behrens: " Does it concern you that the NCAHF is housed on the Loma Linda campus and by implication, this clandestine and highly defamatory practice is condoned by the University? " And this other link showing that the NCAHF's status in California has been suspended. [6] Or this text reproduced from Alternative Medicine Digest: Whats Eating Stephen Barrett ? [7] A cursory search shows many web sites with critical comments about the NCAHF and Dr. Barrett. The article on Stephen Barrett, as it stand, is not ideal but does provide verifiable information regarding Dr. Barrett. His achievements, publications and activities are well listed, occupying the top 50% of the article. The section on litigation is long because he or his alter ego , the NCAHF, has initiated so many lawsuits, some still ongoing ( as per the stated mission of Quackwatch ). The reference section is long because of the need to list every reference in details instead of just placing a link in the body of the text. Jokestress explained the need for this previously. Finally a lot of discussion has revolved around the relevance of the percentage of Board certified M.D.s in relationship to Dr. Barrett's failure of the Board exam and failure to re-try to certify between 1967-1993. NATTO 03:23, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

1. The Whitaker letter is not a reliable source. If it's been published somewhere besides the site of a Barrett legal opponent (Fonorow), like a newspaper or magazine, we can include it. If that letter led to action by the University that was written about in a newspaper or magazine, we can include that information. Otherwise, this is just part of a long list of Google search results. That's not going to cut it in terms of reliable sources per WP:BLP.
2. The NCAHF status in California is mentioned in the article on that entity.
3. Alternative Medicine Digest is barely a reliable source, but that article isn't really much more than an editorial of sorts with very little, if any, new information.

I don't think anyone is disputing that many people have been critical of Barrett. What we're lacking are reliable sources with new information or specific criticisms. Jokestress 04:54, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Here is a link to the Freedom of Health Foundation [8] where Dr. Whitaker comments on this very same issue again. That site is to Dr. Whitaker what Quackwatch is to Dr. Barrett. As perWP:RS: " An opinion is a view that someone holds, the content of which may or may not be verifiable. However, that a certain person or group expressed a certain opinion is a fact (that is, it is true that the person expressed the opinion) and it may be included in Wikipedia if it can be verified; that is, if you can cite a good source showing that the person or group expressed the opinion."NATTO 07:58, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

The article on the Freedom of Health Foundation refers at the bottom to Phillips Health, LLC., which has been renamed Healthy Directions, LLC. in 4/4/2005. This is their web site [9]NATTO 08:09, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

In order to keep this discussion from diverging into all these ancillary issues, how about if we discuss criticism of NCAHF on Talk:The National Council Against Health Fraud? Let's keep this limited to criticism of Barrett himself. That way editors can follow what's going on here regarding Barrett specifically. Much of the stuff above is either about NCAHF or Jarvis. Jokestress 09:45, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Barrett's area of expertise is quackery in healthcare.

I'll start with Negrete's quote:

"For years, Barrett has touted himself as a “medical expert” on “quackery” in healthcare and has assisted in dozens of court cases as an expert. Also, Barrett has testified that was called upon by the FDA, FTC and other governmental agencies for his purported expertise. He was the subject of many magazine interviews, including Time Magazine and featured on television interviews on ABC’s 20/20, NBC’s Today Show and PBS." -- Carlos Negrete

Now Negrete is definitely a very biased and antagonistic source. For awhile some of us actually wondered if his press releases were actually written by Tim Bolen, they were so filled with hyperbole, exaggeration, spin, and logical fallacies, definitely telling only one side of the story. But Bolen goes further, including direct lies, deceptive and weasel wording, and lots of conspiracy theories. Of course he can't prove it, and had to admit it was just "euphemism" he made up for what he himself believed, yet he couldn't produce one shred of evidence. The fact that they can work together is quite telling about Negrete's (lack of) integrity.

Yet, in spite of his antagonism, Negrete starts out with the important fact, which some here keep trying to ignore or get around, that Barrett's area of expertise is quackery in healthcare. The board certification matter is irrelevant to that point, since there are others who aren't even MDs or board certified who are also eminent experts on quackery, and with whom he is allied.

In fact, when one looks at the matter of expertise from the side of those trained as homeopaths, naturopaths, etc., expertise in the subject of quackery is something which the promoters and believers in those quackeries are thereby disqualified from possessing. Their belief disqualifies them. They wouldn't believe it if they understood science, critical thinking, or the true nature of quackery. Since they don't understand the issues, they aren't qualified to expose quackery. They cannot add balance to the discussion, only their side of the story, which is a sales pitch that deceives.

Nobody else has any problem with his expertise on the subject of quackery, only those who believe in those quackeries and risk losing their ill-gotten gains when he exposes them. His researching of the subjects, his understanding of the scientific literature, his many resources and collaboration with other experts, his information from experts on the fields he criticizes (including practitioners), all together help him produce articles that are not merely his own opinion, but a summary of the information available. The articles (with all their documentation) are information sources that help to provide a little balance to offset the massive one-sided sales talk and deceptions put out there by various true believers, sales persons, practitioners, quacks, conmen, and criminals. He correctly labels it "quackery," reserving the label "fraud" only for clearly illegal situations.

Barrett's area of expertise is quackery in healthcare. If and when he actually has claimed expertise, one could (and we have) discuss to what degree he is or is not an expert in those other areas, like the legal area. He got dissed on that one, and fortunately uses lawyers (but apparently needs better ones). Other areas such as the actual practice of medicine and engaging in psychiatric lawsuits are clearly less poignant now, since he no longer engages himself in those areas. Even those areas were no problem during his entire career, in spite of lacking board certification. So even specifically for the area where board certification is most relevant, it wasn't considered problematic by the courts or the medical community!

Now, much later, some Wikipedia editors are trying to make a mountain out of an unrelated molehill, and they're building the mountain beside the molehill, since they can't really build on top of it, since it is another matter. But they are still trying to build on top of it. If they succeed here, they may think that they will thus be able to hide the fact that the foundation of their argument is fallacious, but the facts will always be there, and their edits won't hold.

That some others may make the same error, and can be cited here, might be possible, but it must be done using verifiable sources. That should be easy enough. But we must also use reliable sources (that eliminates using Bolen), and editors must not take sides with them. Just because an opinion is cited from a verifiable source doesn't make the opinion reliable or true. Spin is not NPOV, especially in a biography about a living person.

The insistence on connecting the board certification matter with his anti-quackery activisim is unwarranted. It is simply taking one (very old) fact and attempting to build a current, irrelevant, and huge straw man argument around it. That's OR and POV pushing. It also happens to be a poorly disguised ad hominem attack, reproduced here and willingly supported by some editors here. -- Fyslee 11:11, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

First, we need to know about what Barrett testified. Then we can discuss that in the context of his qualifications. Otherwise, we are going in circles. If, as Negrete claimed, he testified about psychiatry, then his lack of passing the psychiatry boards would be relevant. Otherwise, it really isn't. Also, I noted on Tim Bolan's website that Barrett shouldn't even be called "Doctor" because he is no longer licensed. That is absurd. Once he has an M.D. degree he can forever call himself Doctor if he so chooses. The status of his license has nothing to do with it - even if he had had it revoked, which does not appear to be the case.

Second, what might be more interesting is the number of lawsuits filed, and on what grounds. Defamation would not be of as much interest to the public, I wouldn't think, as those related to accusations of 'quackery'. Did the courts find Barrett's arguments convincing? Or not?jawesq 16:12, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

I know for sure in one case (where Barrett and his NCAHF were suing a homeopathic drug company for false advertising) Barrett testified to being an expert in FDA regulations, but the judge found otherwise...

• As for his credential as an expert on the law and FDA regulation of homeopathic drugs, the Court finds that Dr. Barrett lacks sufficient qualifications in this area. Expertise in FDA regulation suggests a knowledge of how the agency enforces federal statutes and the agency’s own regulations. Dr. Barrett’s purported legal and regulatory knowledge is not apparent. He is not a lawyer, although he claims he attended several semesters of correspondence law school. While Dr. Barrett appears to have had several past conversations with FDA representatives, these appear to have been sporadic, mainly at his own instigation, and principally for the purpose of gathering information for his various articles and Internet web-sites. He has never testified before any governmental panel or agency on issues relating to FDA regulation of drugs. Presumably his professional continuing education experiences are outdated given that he has not had a current medical licence in over seven years. For these reasons, there is no sound basis on which to consider Dr. Barrett qualified as an expert on the issues he was offered to address. Moreover, there was no real focus to his testimony with respect to any of the issues in this case associated with Defendants’ products.[10]

So who was really the one liable of false advertising here? Who is the conman? And who is the fraud? Clearly, the most relevant criticism about Barrett is his hypocrisy. He attacks those who he believes are making deceitful claims about their abilities, all the while he himself is inordinately guilty of the very crime which he alleges. Judge not, lest ye be judged.

So why shouldn't any and all faults in his credentials be noted? If Barrett is going to criticize and attack without the proper training to do so, then his credibility is rightly scrutinized on this article. His lack of qualifications to make the accusations that he makes is a relevant and accurate criticism about Barrett. Providing that these weaknesses in his credentials can be cited from relevant and notable sources, they should most certainly be noted in our article. Levine2112 18:24, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Please refrain from personal attacks and libelous insinuations. That's your POV, when all he was guilty of is naivity and poor preparation. You may or may not believe in the lie of homeopathy, but he is quite right - it is (in an ethical and real sense, not legal sense) false advertising to sell homeopathic products and claim that they have any significant health effects. That is deception.

He was simply not properly prepared for the far-from-ideal realities of legal decisions, which often fail to convict guilty people because of technicalities, and in this case, an old FDA law that allows homeopathic products to be sold without any testing or proof of efficacy or safety. It is assumed that if they are truly homeopathic, they can't hurt anyone. (Nor can they help anyone!) It truly is The Ultimate Fake:

"Homeopathic "remedies" enjoy a unique status in the health marketplace: They are the only category of quack products legally marketable as drugs. This situation is the result of two circumstances. First, the 1938 Federal Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act, which was shepherded through Congress by a homeopathic physician who was a senator, recognizes as drugs all substances included in the Homeopathic Pharmacopeia of the United States. Second, the FDA has not held homeopathic products to the same standards as other drugs. Today they are marketed in health-food stores, in pharmacies, in practitioner offices, by multilevel distributors [A], through the mail, and on the Internet."

He should have first sought to get that law rescinded, so homeopathic products would be tested and sold according to the same rules that govern all other medications. Then, and only then, should he have proceeded to go after Frank King, DC, ND, and accuse him (correctly) of false advertising. He's charging a fortune for water! Now that is a criminal act, unless one calls the water "homeopathic." Then suddenly that ridiculous law protects anyone who wants to sell a worthless product. They can just call it "homeopathic," and many do just that. It's the perfect cover, unless they get caught putting any truly "active ingredients" in it! Then it gets judged like any other medication, and has to meet real standards for safety and effectivity.

He simply did things in the wrong order. That's naive. It's not criminal, hypocritical, or fraudulent. He's a well-meaning crusader who was poorly prepared and needs better counsel. Your personal attack on Stephen Barrett is uncalled for, wholly misguided, and at the very least in very poor taste. It says much more about you than it does about him. -- Fyslee 21:23, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

I am not here to defend homeopathy; nor should you be here to condemn it. This article is about Barrett. Stay on topic.

You're are once again getting away from the point. FACT: Barrett misrepresented himself as an expert in FDA regulations. FACT: Barrett misrepresented himself as an expert in homeopathy. FACT: Barrett misrepresented himself as a legal expert. FACT: Barrett accuses others of "quackery" or "fraud" for misrepresenting themselves (or their products). Thus, Barrett is a hypocrite because he accuses people of being something that a court of law has said he is guilty of.

Now then, you are accusing me of making an attack against Barrett just above. What did I write above that is not citable from a notable source? In fact, most everything that I have cited comes from Judge Fromholz. Your calling Barrett "naive" is more of an ad hominem than anything I have stated above. Wait a minute. You are accusing me of something that you are guilty of... hmmm, what does that make you? Levine2112 02:10, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

This talk page is full of this kind of stuff. Can we stick to discussing the content of the article. This is not usenet, but it reads like it. David D. (Talk) 06:53, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

ad hominem etc..

regarding this:

He is frequently the target of criticism and ad hominem attacks by those whose practices he criticizes and attacks.

In short, "he is criticized by those who he criticizes". This is banal and poorly worded and needs to be re-stated. What exactly is trying to be said? I mean, anyone who is critical of others is going to be criticized in return. Can we be more specific? Also "attacks" is really a poor word, it's a loaded term and is aggressive language. As far as I know, no one is being "attacked", and if they are, this term needs to be qualified by what you mean "attacked".

The ad hominem statement is pure POV and OR. ad hominem is a value judgement and not a neutral statement. What is ad hominem to one person is a legitimate POV to another. Basically, when someone says ad hominem, they are expressing disaproval with the position of the person making the statement. It is original research to classify someones statement as ad hominem - if you are going to use that qualifier, than it needs to be said who defined it as such. "ad hominem" is also somewhat pedantic (kinda like "pedantic"). -- Stbalbach 02:32, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree. jawesq 04:32, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

I may be wrong, but isn't Barrett critical of their opinions with respect to alternative medicine. Is he not critcising their products and businesses? That would not be an example of ad hominem. Do you have any specific examples of his ad hom arguments? I disagree with this statement from Stbalbach: "Basically, when someone says ad hominem, they are expressing disaproval with the position of the person making the statement." Ad hom is not when you disagree with the position of the person making the statement, it's when you criticise the person rather than their argument. It would seem that many of Barretts critics do excatly that. David D. (Talk) 16:25, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Just read this page especially under the section: Bolen's Credibility. Granted Barrett's attacks are a response to Bolen's attacks, but they are still ad hominem. By your definition, Barrett is attacking Bolen's credibility and not neccessarily Bolen's position. Levine2112 16:40, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, as I've explained many times before, Dr. Barrett produces articles which criticise ideas and practices which he considers to be unscientific, unethical, and often unlawful, doing so with documentation, and in collaboration with experts on those subjects. The ones who find their practices being criticised do not respond properly. Instead they respond with ad hominem and straw man attacks. The proper response would be to calmly and professionally provide the needed scientific proof to prove him wrong. Since they can't do that, they attack him personally instead, often viciously and falsely. The facts of the matter are that proper responses are very rare. (Please provide examples to prove me wrong.)

During the last seven years since I learned of Barrett's existence, I have only seen about two such responses. They dealt with scientific and medical matters, and were free of lies, insinuations, conspiracy theories, and personal attacks. They really tried to debunk his charges. All other responses have universally been what are properly classified as ad hominem attacks, a classic logical fallacy and dirty trick. Using words such as "attack" and "criticism" can be fine, but in this case the documentation universally supports the precise description of the responses to Barrett's criticisms as "ad hominem attacks." The use of the word "attacks" in this case is because that's the common description of the logical fallacy. They aren't mere "responses" to criticism, but are cowardly and weak attacks from people who have no legitimate defense for their practices.

The description above, claiming that Barrett himself engages in ad hominem attacks, reminds me of the current crisis in the Middle East. Both sides accuse the other of atrocities. Well, two weeks after it started, that's true, but the important thing to discuss is how it started - Hizbollah made an unprovoked attack on Israel. Period. All further discussion only muddies the waters. Back to base one. Hizbollah started it and must stop.

Likewise, Barrett makes well-reasoned and documented criticisms and his opponents reply improperly. They must reply properly. All further discussion of what happens later is of lesser importance, and only functions as a straw man argument, seeking to distract attention from the key point of the matter - they reply improperly. Period. They must start playing fairly and reply properly. Otherwise they should stop their unscientific, unethical, and often illegal practices. That would be the most proper response. -- Fyslee 22:25, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

I think your comparison to the Israeli/Hezbollah conflict is a little weird but apt. The point is not who started it. That is childish. The point is that now they are both attacking (and killing) each other. That is the travesty.

You can't defend Barrett by first saying "He doesn't attack." Then when I point out that, "No, he actually does," your tuned suddenly changes to "Barrett doesn't attack unless he is first attacked." Who started it is arguable and irrelevant of the fact that Barrett does engage in ad hominem attacks against his critics. And that he criticizes his critics for doing exactly what he does is even further evidence of Barrett's hypocrisy. Levine2112 17:56, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

My point was not who attacked first, but that the response is improper. He makes legitimate criticisms that can be discussed. Instead of discussing them and possibly debunking them, ad hominem attacks are used. His criticisms stand as is, still effective and unchallenged, and the perpetrators of the criticized improprieties continue to do business, while using ad hominem attacks as a straw man diversionary technique. Their followers then buy into the logical fallacy and join in the attack. They ignore the fact that they have not responded properly and debunked his charges.

This illegitimate method of response is quite consistent across the board, and reveals the insincere intentions of quacks and conmen - they aren't really interested in determining the truth of the matter, only in selling their products and fooling the public. They can only continue to fool the public by diverting their attention from the legitimate criticisms, and they do that by the use of ad hominem attacks. -- Fyslee 20:02, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Getting back to the content regarding this part of the sentence:

"He is frequently the target of criticism and ad hominem attacks"

So given the discussion to date are we agreed this is the case? This appeared to be the main problem brought up by Stbalbach who seems to think that the ad hom is subjective. I don't really understand how it can be subjective, his critics either debate his arguments or they criticise him. With regard to the last part of that sentence above:

"by those whose practices he criticizes and attacks."

Is there a problem with this? it sounds as if he does attack some of the time ad hom against ad hom, if you will. Certainly it seems he criticises too, in the none ad hom sense. Stbalbach, the ball is in your court, what are you suggesting with regard to rewriting this sentence? How about the following to get us started.

Barrett is frequently the target of ad hominem attacks by those whose practices he criticizes, although a few have tried to rebutt his claims (ref here).

I think a link to those people that actually did try to rebutt his claims might be useful. Links to all the ad hom sites don't really add to the intellectual discussion here. David D. (Talk) 20:28, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

It is an important point and a matter of NPOV that Barrett too engages in ad hominem. Barrett does more than just criticize entire fields of thought. More often, he targets individuals. If he attacks an individual, the unfortunate law of human nature dictates that he should expect to receive at least an equal and opposite reaction to his fingerpointing. I think including the sentence which David D. is outlining is imperative, but it needs to be worded correctly. There is a point being made that Barrett can be hypocritical. Whether or not this sentence serves that end is besides the point. The evidence that has been cited is that the ad hominem attacks are very much a two-way street. Thus, the sentence should read accordingly.

Barrett has been the target of ad hominem attacks by individuals whom he attacks. These back-and-forth battles have lead to several lawsuits. Barrett is frequently challenged for his lack of experience within those fields he has labelled quackery.TheDoctorIsIn 23:37, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

• I agree with TheDoctorIsIn and his proposal, with a small modification. " Barrett has been the target of ad hominem attacks by individuals whom he attacks. These back-and-forth battles have lead to several lawsuits, most of them initiated by Barrett or the NCAHF. Barrett is frequently challenged for his lack of experience within those fields he has labelled quackery." NATTO 07:10, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Now we are getting somewhere, throughout these conversations we should always be trying to think how our discussion will be reflected in the actual article. Here are further modifications building from NATTO's last version:

" Barrett criticises the practices of those within the fields he has labelled quackery. Some have addressed his claims (ref here), although, he is often the target of ad hominem rebuttals, usually challenging his lack of experience within the given field. This has led to back-and-forth battles including several lawsuits, most of them initiated by Barrett or the NCAHF."

I wonder if the word attacks in the TheDoctorIsIn's first sentence ("by individuals whom he attacks") is a bit POV? I have tried to rearrange the sentences and choose language to set up a less controversial perspective of the interactions. Also shouldn't the legitimate replies to Barrett's original criticism be mentioned as well as the ad hom attacks? Does the phrase "back-and-forth battles" relate that Barrett is also involved in ad hom, or should that be more explicit? David D. (Talk) 16:20, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, just from what is cited in our article, we have Barrett calling Deepak Chopra a purveyor of "Ayurvedic mumbo jumbo." We also note that Barrett points out that Dr. Privatera was was convicted in 1975 of prescribing laetrile (but later pardoned by then California governor Jerry Brown) and was charged (though not convicted) in the death of a 71 year old patient in 2003. When these sentences were added - without what I put in the parenthesis because I added these qualifiers later - it was said that Barrett made these comments to attack the credibility of a person who was speaking ill of him. (I wonder if Chopra even knows who Barrett is.) Anyhow, judging by what we have in this article alone, Barrett certainly engages in ad hominem attacks, so certainly TheDoctorIsIn's uses of the work attack applied to both Barrett and his detractors isn't overstating the matter. Levine2112 01:20, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

• Attack is defined as To criticize strongly or in a hostile manner. This is certainly what Barrett does to both individuals and practices he does not agree with. So attack is not POV in this context but an accurate description of what is happening. NATTO 02:35, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Lead comment

Hey Ya'll, I know you've been sweating this article a lot and the POVs are pretty intense, but I have been eyeing the second sentence in the lead for awhile.

• He is a founder of the National Council Against Health Fraud (NCAHF) and publisher of several websites that expose what he considers "quackery and health fraud," most notably Quackwatch.

My concern with the way it is written is that a person cannot "expose" something if it is not "fraud", which for NPOV you have to infer is possible. I would suggest moving the quotes to make it work better:

• He is a founder of the National Council Against Health Fraud (NCAHF) and publisher of several websites that "expose" what he considers to be quackery and health fraud, most notably Quackwatch.

It still says essentially the same thing, (I think:) --Dematt 03:33, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

I am not sure that this is a big issue, since there already is a qualifier. However, logically, you would be correct. jawesq 04:40, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree with your logic. Levine2112 05:33, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

"describe" works for me. Thanks! --Dematt 13:18, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Clarification

Someone claimed that an editor here was making a "libelous insinuation". "Libelous" is not a term to be thrown around loosely. First, I didn't see anything that was factually untrue. That is the first requirement for libel. If something is true, it is not libelous. Second, opinion is never libelous. I just hope that people become more judicious about this...

Oh, and finally, libel against a public figure requires "reckless indifference to the truth" or "knowledge that the statement was false." I don't see anything here that suggests there was any libel.

M.D.

It doesn't matter whether he was "de-licenced" or if he allowed his licence to expire without being renewed. If he doesn't currently have a licence to practice medicine why does "M.D." appear after his name in the intro and next to his picture in the intro? savidan^{(talk) (e@)} 07:45, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

• Savidan, he has earned a medical degree and is thus entitled to use the letters M.D. after his name. A license allows you to practice in a given jurisdiction and a pre-requisite is to have formal training i.e a medical degree bestowed by an accredited medical school. He does not lose his M.D because he does not have a current license. However I agree that to use his medical credentials so prominently on his web site is an issue because he is using the credibility that goes with an M.D. degree for his work as a self-proclaimed advocate against what he describes as quackery. Interestingly while he claims expertise in quackery , he does not have any formal training in any alternative or complementary modality and an M.D degree, especially from the 1960's, does no provide him with any practical knowledge or experience in such. NATTO 14:51, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

• This question of titles in an article is covered and solved in the WP Manual of Style.--Aspro 15:56, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Has he won any court cases?

Has he ever won any court cases? You can't tell from this article which seems to just list every case he lost, regardless of importance. It looks like a hatchet job to be honest. Secretlondon 11:54, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

I couldn't find any victories for him; there might be though. The person who added most of the citations - user Jokestress - while extremely fair an unbiased with her edits, could be characterized as a pro-Barrett editor. I don't think her intent was to denigrate Barrett, but rather to just present the facts. The facts seems to be that he lost most, if not all, of his libel cases. The top of the section explains a possible reason why. However, if you find a victorious case for Barrett that is verifiable from a notable source (actual court records are preferred), please feel free to add it to this list. Thank you. Levine2112 18:37, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

I believe he has settled a few out of court, so they wouldn't be registered. I think Mercola was one of those cases. See here. -- Fyslee 20:46, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

This one is mentioned already on the Barrett article. So I guess not everything listed here are losses. They are all losses or settlements. Levine2112 21:37, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

Skepticism and pseudoskepticism

In light of the recent all inclusiveness discussion that the category headings are taking, do you think this article should discuss the concept of skepticism and pseudoskepticism? --Dematt 18:22, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

• Good point. How would you defined skepticism and pseudoskepticism ? NATTO 21:58, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Mercola

I am very interested in getting to the bottom of what happened with the Mercola case. I just found a source that states:

Stephen Barrett, operator of Quackwatch once attempted a lawsuit for libel against Mercola for his posting of an inflammatory article written by Tim Bolen on his website. Once the article was posted on Dr. Mercola's site, Barrett threatened to sue him unless he gave him $10,000. The case was eventually settled out of court, though how this occurred is unknown. [11]

The other source we have is from Barrett's site in his words:

In October 2000, I filed suit in Pennsylvania against an osteopathic physician in Illinois who had republished one of Bolen's messages and added some thoughts of his own. Bolen's message had falsely claimed that I (a) was "de-licensed," (b) had committed extortion, and (c) had been disqualified as an expert in a malpractice suit. After the doctor contested the suit on jurisdictional grounds, I withdrew it and refiled in Illinois. In March 2002, the Illinois judge ruled that these statements "imply the existence of objectively verifiable facts" and therefore provided grounds for a libel suit. In April 2003, the suit was settled with a retraction and payment of $50,000. [12]

Though Mercola isn't mentioned, I think we can assume he is that osteopathic physician.

Currently I a m looking for more sources. If there was a legal settlement, there should be some documents stipulating the terms. Perhaps, if Barrett is still checking in here, he might be persuaded to post the documents on his site and link us to them? Steve? In the meantime, can anyone find any other sources? Perhaps something more reliable than what we have? Thanks. Levine2112 06:21, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Your edit summary:

Litigation - "this isn't established. I have references that says otherwise. There must be a legal record, even though it was settled out of court.)"

It is established in public and Mercola hasn't complained. The $50,000 figure is quoted several places, but of course not from a non-existent court record. The About.com source you quote is from an old copy of the Wikipedia article on Mercola. The Wikipedia article has been brought up to date.

Since you claim to have "references that says otherwise," please supply them here. If they are better than Barrett's account, then we can use them. Until then, his account is the best we've got and should stay.

It is especially important to document this correctly, since even a casual Google search reveals that Barrett's enemies universally cite this incident in a way that makes it look like Barrett withdrew the suit. They do it in such a deceitful way as to imply he didn't have a case, when in fact the judge said he had a case, and that was enough for Mercola to see the writing on the wall. Even though such settlements often include limits on which details can be publicized, the amount apparently wasn't part of that agreement, otherwise Mercola would have sued faster than .....! That he hasn't is telling.

Any failure to include this information, or attempt to suppress it, will only serve to add Wikipedia to the list of enemies who attempt to miscredit Barrett. -- Fyslee 12:21, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

• As it was filed in Illinois - I looked up Illinois to see what 'case activity' there had been. Clerk of the Circuit Court--Aspro 15:18, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Fyslee, you are getting a little paranoid about this. Try not to take this personally and accuse editiors of being part of a conspiracy to discredt Barrett. We are only trying to get the facts straight. The Answers.com article which I pointed to had conflicting information with what we had here. I was merely searching for clarity. Thus far, all we know of the settlement details comes from one paragraph on a page not about the case where the name "Mercola" is never mentioned. What user Aspro posted above is helpful in that it shows that the case was certainly settled on an agreement outside of the court. This is new information for us here. I think if we continue to diligently search we can find out the terms of the settlement with greater clarity from a more reliable source than what we have. What Barrett wrote may be true. I'm sure it certainly could be. Let's try to confirm it with a stronger reference (which may even be something where Mercola states the terms of thea agreement and it matches what Barrett has stated). Levine2112 18:36, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Aspro, would Lexis list attorney agreements reached outside of the court? Levine2112 19:31, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

• The inclusion of non-verified information about any settlement is not up to the standard established in other court cases in the article. The fact that Dr. Mercola did not issue a formal denial is not evidence that the details of the settlement are correct. Independant confirmation from a reliable source, preferably legal, is the standard adopted to edit the article. Thus the details of the settlement should be removed until properly documented otherwise is a case of double standard.NATTO 20:47, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Most settlements have confidentiality agreements. They are not public record and therefore Lexis would not have such information.jawesq 23:17, 13 August 2006 (UTC)