Talk:White Tower of Thessaloniki

Is there a picture on Wikipedia somewhere of the white tower taken facing westward from the waterfront park, showing the tower side-by-side with the modern apartment buildings? I could've sworn I saw such a picture here, but can't find it. --Delirium 07:13, Feb 7, 2004 (UTC)

No, sorry, that's the only one I have. I have a general view of the waterfront facing west, and I have photos of the giant Alexander statue, if they are of interest to anyone I can post them. Adam 07:26, 7 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Macedonia name

The country's name in its constitution is the Republic of Macedonia. Countries have the right to name themselves as they see fit. "FYROM" is a term of convenience, not a legal name. Adam 04:35, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Their "constitutional" name is for internal consumption and is not binding in international affairs. The United Nations recognise them as F.Y.R.O.M.

A country's name is the name it gives itself in its constitution. Adam 03:16, 3 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Nice one-liner Adam Carr, care to back it up? Do you accuse the UN of being POV?

The FYROM name was invented by the EU, not the UN, as a solution to the dilemma caused by Greece's refusal to allow EU recognition of Macedonia. What the EU and the UN call the country doesn't alter the fact that the legal name of the country is the name stated in its constitution. Adam 13:39, 3 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Regarding your edit summary and the unsubstantiated accusations of nationalism and anonymity (I always edit from the same IP so I am no more anonymous than any nickname) let me ask you directly: If your position regarding the name by which that country should be refered to is so NPOV, then how is there such a diplomatic confrontation over it for almost 15 years and why is there still the necessity for a permanent agreement? I only advocate the use of what FYROM is an abbreviation of until such an agreement (still sought by both parties through negotiations) is reached. If by replying to this you identify with one of the two sides is that not the definition of POV? Do you think that there can not be a NPOV way of stating what is to be stated? If yes you contradict one of the principles that the Wikipedia project was founded on. Since you are the one who changed the "status quo", I am afraid I still have to rectify your edits. Don't take this personally and don't let this ruin your day when you wake up in Australia. I "challenge" you (in a frienly way, to the extent possible) to take into account these concerns when you next edit this. I am sure you are capable of edits much more NPOV. Have a nice day.

PS. This whole last paragraph about the bankonotes etc is not useful anyway in my opinion (and serves more as an apology of Slav nationalisms, whether this was intended or not) but I didn't remove it giving the benefit of the doubt to the intentions of the author.

None of which is relevant to the point, which is that the legal name of any country is the name in its constitution. Adam 01:38, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)

---

• The anonymous Greek nationalist editor insists on saying that the Greek army "liberated" Thessaloniki in 1912 rather than "captured" it. Of course Greeks saw it that way, but the large non-Greek populations in Macedonia at that time did not, and the term "liberated" is inherently POV.
• The legal name of the Republic of Macedonia should be used in this article as it is in other articles.

Adam 09:53, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)

A lecture concerning the terms "liberate" and "capture" from a person originating from a country that has exterminated its natives to make room for the white folks is very amusing. Considering that Thessaloniki was always a part of Greece (as its ancient name and all the historical records prove) and considering that at the time (1912) it was under foreign occupation, i think that everyone will agree that the term "liberated" is the correct one, since the city returned to its citizens. A city being "captured" means that it was taken away from its people. If you don't believe me Adam, try the Oxford English Dictionary to look up the two words. Being a native speaker, even if you are Australian, it shouldn't be that difficult to comprehend the difference between the two words. Looking forward to your next bitter remark. Tata!

==

• I am not nationalist, quite the contrary. On the other hand you are the one serving nationalist and expansionist interests

(deliberately).

• Feel free to substitute "liberated" with the more technical "seized control of". "Captured" is highly POV, it is the verb used in hostage situations. The non-greek populations you refer to were non native to Macedonia (Slavs, Turks etc).
• The laws of FYROM hold inside its borders only (and often not even there, if you read the news). You should instead abide to international law, safeguerded by the United Nations. Of course I advocate use of FYROM to refer to that entity in all articles

until an agreement on the name is achived (whether that will contain the M word or not one can only speculate).

Something else: By choosing to "strongarm" yourself out of the situation, perhaps you are bringing on the opppsite of what you are trying to achieve.

Slavic names

As far as I am aware, it is practice in the English Wikipedia to give a name of a location in the language of its residents, but not to include other, unrelated languages. Including the Slavic name in this article does not do a service to the reader (give it in Turkish, if we've suddenly gone to listing two additional languages) and is likely to further provoke the endless edit-wars over everything within a thousand miles of Skopje. Thanks for understanding. Jkelly 23:18, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

I would add the Turkish name if I knew it, since the Ottomans built the Tower in the first place. Until 1911 Thessaloniki was a multi-ethnic and multilingual city, including Slav Macedonians. Given that the Tower has become a symbol of Macedonian identity (both Greek and Slav), I don't think it is unreasonable to include the Macedonian name. This will only become a dispute if you make it one. Adam 07:59, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

Actually I thought about adding the Turkish name as I read the article. I am happy to find your post here in the talkpage and hereby propose to add Beyaz Kule to the other Greek and (if you will) Macedonian name of the tower. I am not, however sure about the way it should be written. As this would obviously have to refer to Ottoman Turkish (written in an arabic script, which, I am afraid, I do not perfectly master) we could do either that, or write it in modern Turkish as i did above. A third possibility is one spelling ai found in a historic map from 1910 in Mark Mazower's Book Salonica - City of Ghosts. The french translitteration of the turkish name in the book is Béaz Kulé. Personally I would prefer the first spelling, but I am waiting to hear your opinions.--Iago4096 05:11, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. I have added the Turkish name. Adam 07:14, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

Macedonian language

It is Wikipedia's position that there is a Macedonian language. Edits to this article suggesting otherwise will be reverted. Adam 00:01, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

Well, that was a congenial and collaborative note. If it happens to be the case that all South Slavic languages share the same name for something, I take it that it is your position that the word should be attributed solely to theMacedonian language in articles about Greek landmarks. It is important to make this distinction about whose position is whose, because a great deal of angst is generated over the idea that Wikipedia has a "position" on controversial subjects. We should be making no primary source claims whatsoever. Jkelly 00:43, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

I am well beyond being "congenial" or "collaborative" on this topic, sorry. I can just barely manage "civil." I looked for Macedonian language and that's what I found. If it was the view of the majority of informed Wikipedia editors that there was no such thing as a Macedonian language, merely a dialect of Bulgarian or whatever, then that article wouldn't exist. Adam 01:00, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

Your response doesn't clarify things for me. The translation of "White Tower of Thessaloniki" is the same in Bulgarian language, Macedonian language and Serbian language -- the South Slavic languages. Your change removed the information that Bulgarian and Serbian also use the same words. As I commented above a while ago, I don't understand why any Slavic is in this article. But if we are going to have the Slavic translation of landmarks in Greece, why remove Serbian and Bulgarian? Jkelly 01:24, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

This is not an article about comparative linguistics. Thessaloniki has never been part of either Bulgaria or Serbia, and as far as I know has never had significant Bulgarian or Serbian populations. It is part of geographical Macedonia, and has had in the past (and may still have for all I know) a significant Slav Macedonian population. The Macedonian name is also relevant because the Greeks accuse Macedonia (not Bulgaria or Serbia) of plotting to annex Greek Macedonia including Thessaloniki. Adam 03:35, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

While I remain in disagreement, I note that this issue is actually listed at WP:LAME, which means that there is some history to this that I am unaware of and am uninterested in exploring. Jkelly 19:47, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

How about we put the original Genoese Italian name for the tower in Constantinople? Oh wait, we dont.

Sinan

This page should be linked to that of its architect, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinan.

I'm surprised its not mentioned on the page at all