Talk:Armenian genocide

This is the talk page for discussing changes to the Armenian genocide ARTICLE. Please place discussions on the underlying political issues on the Arguments page. Non-editorial comments on this talk page may be removed by other editors.
[[Please sign your comments using four tildes (~~~~). Place comments that start a new topic at the bottom of the page and give them == A Descriptive Header ==. If you're new to Wikipedia, please see Welcome to Wikipedia and frequently asked questions.	Talk page guidelines Please respect Etiquette, assume good faith and be nice.

Archives

Please do not edit archived pages. If you want to react to a statement made in a archived discussion, please make a new header on THIS page. -- Mgm|(talk) 09:20, Feb 23, 2005 (UTC) Archives: Archive 1 (709 kb) Archive 2 (698 kb) Archive 3 (648 kb) Archive 4 (103 kb) Archive 5 (113 kb) Archive 6 (327 kb) Archive 7 (225 kb) Archive 8 (215 kb) Archive 9 (139 kb) Archive 10 (254 kb) Archive 11 (385 kb) Archive 12 (133 kb) Fadix Analysis (575 kb) A Letter from The International Association of Genocide Scholars

Turkey commits to accept outcomes from joint history commission

"Gul also said that Turkey declared it would accept the outcomes of the joint endeavor" http://www.zaman.com/?bl=international&alt=&trh=20060915&hn=36549

This is a posative move by Turkey, if the commission is ever created. A international commission would be a good way for everyone to get closure on this.

Could this be added to the main article?--SolDrury 10:41, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Ravished Armenia

Someone should mention this movie in the Art section: Ravished Armenia.--Eupator 14:30, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

The promtional poster of this film is highly denigrating and racist, it has no business here lutherian 13:18, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

No matter what your opinion of it is, it's still history and should remain intact. Please stop reverting this article and writing sarcastic remarks in reference to other users. -- Clevelander 12:03, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

progpaganda back on track

Looks like the usual band of Armenian suspects (and their devoted admirers) are back in business, turning this topic into a circus. Tsk tsk! lutherian 11:48, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

I see one of the prominant members of the band of suspects is already busy in a revert war! Tsk tsk! lutherian 12:00, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

"Usual band of Armenian suspects?" -- Clevelander 12:04, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

yeah, with your greek orthodox sidekick, right? lutherian 12:17, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

U made that comment, lutherian, before i make any of my reverts... U knew in advance that your edit would be reverted, that's why u accused (in advance) anyone who would possible revert... I'm sorry, but keep your POV for yourself... (btw, don't say 'greek orthodox' as if it is an insult... LOOL) --Hectorian 12:24, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

not at all, I added stuff that had been deleted without any comments and out of the blue you guys come in and without any explanation reinstate the deletions. I dont know what your definition of civility is, but your attitude does not even come close lutherian 12:32, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

...and you would consider saying "gosh im sooooo scared that I need to take a dump this instant" to be civil? -- Clevelander 13:22, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree that my reply is not civil, but who started the fire? lutherian 14:11, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

You did. -- Clevelander 14:58, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Hectorian WP:3RR violation

You have disregarded the warning which reflects on your bad faith lutherian 12:20, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

I did not break any rule. If the IP is yours u are in biggggggggggg trouble... --Hectorian 12:26, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

gosh im sooooo scared that I need to take a dump this instant, is that ok with u? lutherian 12:29, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

I think it is pretty obvious the only reason that it hasnt been officialy recognized as a genocidal act is because certain Nations like the United States and others wish to maintain good relations with Turkey. Furthermore, just admit that Armenians have had it rough throughout history and even had to bear the brunt of Islamic Imperialism at the hands of the ruthless Turkic barbarians.

Lutherian RFC

Don't you think it's time?--Eupator 15:25, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Thoughts from Jorgenpfhartogs

Gentlemen, please keep it civilized. Whether, you're right or not. This topic is highly controversial so a NPOV is almost impossible. Just recide to facts and not to popular beliefs. I won't agree or deny there has been an Armenian Genocide: all I know is that a lot of Armenians died in those last moments of the War and if, as mentioned to me by Turks, this was a reprisal for atrocities committed by Armenians, the please proof this. It has been suggested that the proof supplied by the "Western World" is one-sided and always favours their "Christian allies". I do not see the world as divided between east and west and between Christians and muslims. If there was a Turkish genocide by Aremnians than proof this and if the proof given by so-called Armenian Supporters is wrong them please mention why. Jorgenpfhartogs 15:33, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

errrr "Turkish genocide by Aremnians"? Thats the first time I hear that the Armenians comitted a genocide on Turks! Could you rephrase pls? lutherian 16:09, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Actually, this has been suggested quite often. Stanford Shaw a proffesor at UCLA depicted the Armenians as the victimizers rather than victims in their book The Ottoman Empire and Modern Turkey. Bernard Lewis, a well known Western scholar of Islam has expressed similiar sentiments. This has been discussed in the epilogue of The Burning Tigress if you would care to research these claims more.Max The Dog 14:12, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

I should add that these claims are not treated kindly in Balakian's book. Nor, do I personally believe the Armenians committed any acts near the scale as what was perpetrated upon them. Max The Dog 14:14, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

I think, my dear fellow, that you are confusing massacre with genocide, two words with very different meanings. I dont think that professor Shaw ever said that the massacres perpetrated by Armenians on Turks amounted to an act of genocide! Balakian is not a reference as he is extremely one sided (which is to be expected from a hardcore armenian). What is being contested here is whether the massacres perpetrated by the Turks on their armenian subjects amounts to genocide. There is a world of evidence that rejects this claim and this is the main reason why this topic has been shrouded in controversy since the accusations first came to light lutherian 17:34, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Balakian is one of the finest writers that I know of (regardless of his ethnicity). I have read both The Burning Tigris and Black Dog of Fate. The former, I believe is a very solid source of information (not to mention very well-written). Balakian has certainly done painstaking research on the subject. I also enjoy his creative writing (though I enjoy the works of William Saroyan more). -- Clevelander 23:38, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

This article spends far too much time explaining away why Turkey rejects the accusations of the Genocide yet little has been cited to how the Genocide was carried out. The best thing to do is move them into another article called Denial of the Armenian Genocide (the current redirect is insufficent). While Turkey and to a lesser degree Azerbaijan deny the Genocide from ever occuring (other countries that do overtly deny it do it for obvious political reasons; i.e. US Congress vote in 2000), the overall consensus is that it did happen. We can spend our time editing the article on the facts we have and what was being reported back then and then devote the Denial page to what Turkey's position is to the matter and opposing views thereafter. Nearly 15 kilobytes of this article just spends time refuting Armenian charges.--MarshallBagramyan 00:52, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree, I think it's time somebody created a Denial of the Armenian Genocide article. -- Clevelander 01:13, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

yes, thats perfect, why dont we rewrite histroy, remove all the opposition to the genocide thesis and make this topic a pure propaganda piece. And to add insult to injury call the opposing view denial to put them in the same category as those that deny the Jewish holocaust, like that the credibility of the opposing view can be shattered further. Wow, your modus operandi seems to be identical whoever you are as long as you are of armenian ancestory or a sympathizer because you have a serious gripe with the existance of Turkey. There is a very predictable pattern here which is what makes this whole exercise such a big farce lutherian 05:20, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

The mere fact is that the "opposition" to the Genocide thesis is held by an extremely small minority: Turkey and only a handful of relatively unknown scholars. So far, the "opposing view" does not present any citations nor does not refute of what eyewitnesses were claiming back then. Its going to take much more than screaming "they were Christian, they were biased which meant they lied" than that. You've done little to show us what irks you so much. The Genocide has been recognized by many nations and so the opposition position does not deserve so much room on this article especially when its a minority and oft-criticized view. --MarshallBagramyan 05:58, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

You Mr. Bagramyan can argue all you want, it is a matter of FACT that your opinion of events of that period are nothing short of bigotry. When you add a gay racist satanist heavy metal bands to support your claims, propaganda ads or assume that because some fundamentalist american physician talked about massacres that his POV should be taken seriously or that convicted criminals like Akcam speak the truth whilst the words of highly respected scholars such as Lewis or Shaw should be dismissed because you and others claim that they are on the payroll of the Turkish government, its difficult to take you seriously. And maybe the most insidious and despicable addition to this topic is the attempt to make comparisons with the Jewish Holocaust to gain the sympathy of Jews. It is frankly in very bad taste! What you people fail to understand is that bullying, denigrating your opponents and making wild claims and attempting to distort the truth will get you nowhere. No wonder this argument has been dragging on for more than 90 yrs. lutherian 08:39, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Lutherian, Taner Akçam is a very credible scholar and free thinker. He is also very brave for speaking against what the government of his country is doing - attempting to suppress the facts and violating human rights. Lewis, Shaw, and McCarthy on the other hand have both been payed and sponsered by the Turkish government to support their denial of the actual events.

I would also say that the Armenian Genocide was in many ways similar to the Holocaust. Take for example the death marches, extermination centers, cutting off the "head of Armenian society" (the intellectuals, writers, etc.), throwing Armenians into a cave and then placing a torch in front of the entrance as a sort of crude "gas chamber," the cattle cars, the Armenian resistance at Musa Dagh and Van (like the Jews of the Warsaw Ghetto), and of course there are even more events that I can use to compare both. Your statement that comparing it to the Jewish Holocaust is "insidious and despicable" is, in my opinion bigotry. In fact, I would say that the Genocide itself and its subsequent denial should properly be dubbed insidious and despicable. Also, you mention "bullying." All I have to say is look at Armenian and Turkey today. Who has closed off their border to Armenia? Who has forced Armenians in their own country into not accepting the Genocide? Who is trying to assimlate their Armenian population? Who dubs all Armenians as terrorists? The answer is consistently Turkey. -- Clevelander 10:27, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

yeah thats right Celvelander, the evil, despicable, inferior, barbarian Turks, they are the ones to blame for all the death and destruction, heck why not even the Jewish holocaust? (im surprised none of you came up with some way of blaming the Turks for the Jewish holocaust). Poooor Armenians, such an honorable and peaceful and loyal race, would not hurt a fly and how dare we call them terrorists??? For what happened in the 70's and 80's? Come on, after all it was just a bunch of inferior Turks that were murdered, its so easy to read your thoughts! Im just curious, do you believe that you are going to get Turkey to recognize a complete fallacy? And maybe follow it up by opening its borders to allow free trade? And whilst you're at it maybe throw some land as a goodwill gesture? Do you really believe that or are just insane? Have the armenians ever showed any goodwill gesture since this dispute arose? Ha, that would be the day! lutherian 16:34, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

:) Just reading the stuff this guy says to me makes me want to laugh; moreso whenever he claims that Armenians are filled with bigotry when 90% of his post fills up against pent-up anger against Armenians :). Do you really believe that or are just insane? Hehe, this isn't the complaint dept. pal, this is Wikipedia, post your diatribe elsewhere.--MarshallBagramyan 17:01, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

actually im lamenting about the sorry state of this topic which has been hijacked by a bunch of thugs who want to push their propaganda ways lutherian 18:37, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Սթափ ֆիդինգ դը թռոլ, both of you. --Eupator 17:19, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Բայց Ինքը սկսեց :) դժբախտաբար, Ինքը ստեղ էլ կ մնա --MarshallBagramyan 18:10, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Արդեն իրան ոչ ոք լուրջ չի ընդունում մեկա, ես գնտում որ դրանց հետ վիճել իմաստ չունի այլ հակառակը պատասխանելով մենք իրանց ոնց որ թե օրինականություն տանք: Վաղ թե ուշ դրան կտշեն ստեղից:--Eupator 18:24, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

fjalsdfkjéweahéwefwasfsdsucka ma pagoda?asdhjsldfehaeoiergosdf apsdfhfweoawhe? lutherian 18:37, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

lol, խենթացավ հիմարը; պարզապես ճԻշտ ես, այս Թուրքերը էշից ավելի "էշ" էն; եվ այտպես էլ կ մնան --MarshallBagramyan 19:08, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Sorry for interfering, but i could not help myself on commenting in this: Im just curious, do you believe that you are going to get Turkey to recognize a complete fallacy? And maybe follow it up by opening its borders to allow free trade? (by lutherian)... I am astonished! Do u really believe that Turkey will be accepted in the EU, and we will open our borders to allow free trade and citizens' movements as long as Turkey does not fulfill the criteria? Recently the European Parliament said that the recognition of the Armenian Genocide may be a criterio for Turkey's accession... If Turkey's deep state (i never blame the people, u know:)...) wants "special treatment" (as they want in the Cyprus issue), all they'll get will be a "special relation with the EU"... Full membership will come only if they act and do what all the other members do... --Hectorian 17:34, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

you dont get it do you? Its the desire to align itself with European norms that matters because thats where it has most to gain. Turkey has no business joining the EU and they wont, thank God for that! And you know where the EU can shove its offer for a "special relationship", right? By the middle of the century, your old fart EU will be begging for a strong enough labor force to support its rapidly ageing population. Look around you (maybe not in the case of insignificant members like greece I may add), the social institutions are crumbling under their own weight, its pathetic. No way josé, Turkey certainly doesnt belong to your shithole and soon to be bankrupt club! lutherian 18:37, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, yeah... Europe does not sacrifice democracy for labour force... Btw, what u "forgot" to say is that by the middle of the century maybe Turkey will be partitioned AGAIN. Cause, as u probably know, Europe is getting united, but Turkey is disolving... a view of what is happening in the big cities and the SE, as well as the ongoing disputes between Erdogan and the new Prima General, are forcing things to the edge... --Hectorian 18:49, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

yeah I know it gives you a hard on to fantasize about the end of Turkey and its rather funny considering that less than 60 years ago your beloved Eurosuckers were busy killing each other wholesale. You talk of unity? Uh its not what the polls show, lets see.....who rejected the so called European constitution not so long ago? Paleeeeassse, take your silly ideas to lala land! lutherian 20:30, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

...and you would call Turkey a model of unity? I suppose that's why the Kurds want to separate from it. Let us not forget that just a decade ago your beloved Turkey was busy killing off and assimilating the Kurds wholesale. -- Clevelander 20:38, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Guys stick to the topic please.--MarshallBagramyan 19:08, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

It begun as something relevant: Turkish blockage on Armenia and EU Parliament considering the recognition of the Armenian Genocide as a precondition for Turkey's accesion. but it was carried away... anyway, i am not gonna continue it. --Hectorian 19:14, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

You are correct Hectorian. What we mean is: Μην ταϊ'στε...--Eupator 22:37, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

"Lewis, Shaw, and McCarthy on the other hand have both been payed and sponsered by the Turkish government to support their denial of the actual events" how do you know that they are paid? i expected that you are logical guys.now i see that you are also fool.if u say that they are paid, some people will say that Taner akcam and the others are also paid..be logical..hipatian

Hijacked Topic

Once again this controversial topic is hijacked by a band of hard core armenians and their sympathizers. The usual suspects: Eupator, Hectorian, Clevelander, marshalbargmayan and angus amongst others. Their complete lack of scruples and their highly biased and propagandistic approach to this topic is resulting in a very misleading view of events, way below wiki standards. Any information that contradicts the genocide thesis, irrespective of its validity is rapidly eliminated and kept out of the topic through edit warring maintained by a 24 hour monitoring by the core group and their stooges. So congratulations to you for making this arguably one of the poorest (in terms of quality of content) topics in wikiland. lutherian 16:35, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Has ever crossed your mind the idea of u trying to hijack this article, but other users not letting u to? --Hectorian 16:40, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Do you understand the definition of hijacking? In any case the evidence is on the pages and I have nothing else to add! lutherian 16:55, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, right... --Hectorian 16:57, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

FYI - Comment added at request of Artist to "art" section

Armenian-American keyboardist Derek Sherinian collaborated with duduk master Djivan Gasparyan on the song "Prelude To Battle", which Sherinian "dedicated to his great grandmother who fought the Turks in the Armenian genocide" as part of his 2006 CD "Blood of the Snake".

Thank you.

Tvccs 06:53, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Gee, i can just picture a super granny fighting ottoman soldiers, LOL. Good thing there werent many of these grannys, they could have very well led the turks to extinction, LOL. lutherian 06:57, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

wait a minute were you an unarmed folk that fall victim to a genocide or were you proud and glorious fighters agaisnt the "Turkish Yoke"? first decide that please...! neurobio 22:58, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

My great-grandfather was a victim of the Armenian Genocide. He was also apolitical and worked in the textile industry, yet when Turkish gendarmes invaded his village, they nearly beat him to death. Needless to say, he did not deserve the beating he received. He would have died had my grandmother not thrown her body over his and screamed so as to get the attention of other people living in the area. -- Clevelander 23:21, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

No doubt lots of innocent persons died in that period but to go from there and accuse Turks of orchestrating a genocide is stretching it. I see that prejudice and hostility towards islam is alive and well, have you heard the present day nazi pope's remarks? lutherian 05:17, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

I will trust a muslim Arab or Iranian source on the AG 100000 time smore than Christian British source. Religion had nopthing to do with the Armenian Genocide nor anything modern related to it. Btw, the Pope didn't say anything factually incorrect.--Eupator 11:57, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

My friend and I were just talking about that, actually. —Khoikhoi 05:25, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

The question is: why in this time of extreme sensitivity, quote the debasing words of a 14th century christian emperor? Is it to, as he suggests, forge better inter religious relations? Who is he kidding? Even an idiot would understand that this is plain and simple provocation. Its reckless comments like this that has caused death and destruction throughout history. And since this world is full of idiots that have a natural affinity towards provoking, the cylce just repeats itself. Also your statement that he didnt say anything factually incorrect is also provocation. lutherian 12:32, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Go grab a tissue and wipe those tears. Better relations cannot be forged by historical revisionism, which you are trying to accomplish in the name of extreme sensitivity. To hell with that. Islam was spread beyond the Arabian peninsula by a scimitar and that is a fact, the Crusades were a retaliatory consequence. This is offtopic and has nothing to do with the AG.--Eupator 13:53, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

there you go again with your superiority complex rethoric. Beggers cant be choosers, you should know that better than anyone else! lutherian 15:47, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

You're suffering from an inferiority complex (rightfully so might I add), why not cease begging to join the "Christian club"? You are part of Oriental culture stick with it, but feel free to continue selling doner kebabs and watermelons to the natives of the "Christian club".--Eupator 17:23, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

and you dare deny that you are a racist? lutherian 23:00, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

As usual when you're set straight in your place you resort to ad-hominem insults. Keep up the good work, after all that's been your only contribution since you joined wikipedia.--Eupator 00:08, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Insults? You just made denigrating racist remarks and you are accusing me of insults? Do you suffer from selective memory? lutherian 05:35, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Did u hear what the turkish minister (director, or whatever) of religious affairs said about what the Pope said? We also know that Christianity is wrong, but we do not use bad language against Jesus... adding that the Pope should cancel his trip to Turkey, which is on November to meet the Ecumenical Patriarch. they said last year that "he is not welcomed" in Turkey. again this year they more or less tell him not to go there... is this 'religious tolerance'? Hectorian 13:58, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

you dare talk of religious tolerance with your christian club? The difference is your extreme hypocrisy, you supposedly preach tolerance but in reality its the other way round lutherian 15:47, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

These insults and flames are in violation of wikipedia policy (WP:ISNOT#Wikipedia_is_not_a_battleground); I suggest everyone simply cease commenting on this thread. Sdedeo (tips) 17:56, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Turco-Armenian Relations and British Propaganda During The First World War. LVIII

• Turco-Armenian Relations and British Propaganda During The First World War. LVIII

• The Turco-Armenian 'Adana Incidents' in the Light of Secret British Documents (July, 1908 - December ,1909)

• several articles —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 85.96.213.72 (talk • contribs) 19:49, 9 September 2006 (UTC).

What an ungrateful government you have. The British and their Russophobia are the only reason the Republic of Turkey even exists today.--Eupator 19:50, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Anon, pls ignore this provocative racist! lutherian 06:52, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

what a perfect crowd again. I previously showed your "grand master" that the picture you are using actually shows russian soldier posing in front of cicumcised victim still you have the photo and dont feel ashamed of writing genocide victims under it. That is a nice summary of your state of mind.

just to remind you: and the only reason Armenian people are dead en masse is the ignorance and blinded obdience of pathetic armenian intellectuals/revolutionaries of the time to their masters. I see the time has changed but not much has changed.neurobio 12:41, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Removing picture

Armenian Genocide victims

Dear all I am removing the unsourced picture where Russian-Armenian soldiers are posing in front of their circumcised visctims. or should I write muslim victims of Armenian voulunteers in the russian army on it?neurobio 11:52, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

How do you know the soldiers are Russian-Armenian? —Khoikhoi 23:34, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes, do you have verifiable evidence or written proof of this or is this your own observation? -- Clevelander 23:48, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

He doesn't. The only reason I didn't readd the image was because it was unattributed.--Eupator 00:03, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, I did find a source...but the website seems to be like the counterpart of TAT. The caption on the image reads:

Turkish soldiers proudly posing with bodies of their Christian victims. To these Muslims, the "Christians were like animals to be hunted."

Regarding the link about Muhammed: if that's not Islamophobia I don't know what is. :( —Khoikhoi 00:08, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Interesting. I was going check out the source where the image specfically was uploaded from (Armeniapedia.org) and see if it was taken by Armin T. Wegner. I'm afraid can't do that, however, as an Azeri hacker seems to have completely wiped Armeniapedia's domain (the administrator of the site, fellow WikiArmenian contributor Raffi Kojian told me of earlier incidents during this week). -- Clevelander 00:13, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Can it be restored? —Khoikhoi 00:15, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Raffi can restore it (he did it when it first happened this week). It was brought to my attention at first by my friend Avik Topchyan. He posted details about the incident on the WikiProject Azeri talk page [1]. The guy's name is Murad Mamedov according to the information Raffi provided. -- Clevelander 00:18, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Using Google's cache, I was able to recover this [2] and this [3]. No information on where it came from, though. Perhaps Raffi can tell us. -- Clevelander 00:22, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

unfortunately these are russian soldier. let me prove it. First they are not Turkish soldiers. it doesnt need any source every Turkish person knows that the Turkis army started using these round hats (see... the guy on the left is wearing one of these)long after the Turkish republic. These hats were not used by germans also. if you are not satisfied check these link to see Turkis army clothes.[[4]] [[5]] [[6]]. for german army:[[7]] So who were wearing that kind of uniforms? Fellow Russians ofcourse [[8]], [[9]][[10]](page 3)

And take a close look at the bayonets and rifles. See anything? the same bayonets and rifles.

Finally; the resolution is not good still if you take a close look you will see that some dead guys (if not all) are cicumcised. So Eupator I am not talking out of my A... You are withnessing a shameless act here. Putting pictures where muslims were killed by Russian-Armenian army and presenting it as a genocide proof. even writing Turkish soldiers proudly posing with bodies of their Christian victims. To these, the "Christians were like animals to be hunted.". Simply nausating. neurobio 16:24, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

FYI: I say Russin-armenian army because American newspapers of that time were also using that description. And do not try to find its source. There is no source... It is not an Armin Wenger photo. neurobio 16:24, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes, but none of the uniforms in the pictures that you have shown perfectly match those worn in the image (Ottoman, Russian, and German - I'm not sure why you would even consider including the latter) and you still have not shown us written proof of your claims that these soldiers were Russian or Armenian and not Turkish. I say that we should continue to pursue the source of the image just to be sure. -- Clevelander 17:03, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

> my dear friend. I am telling you I digged to find the source myself for some time. there is no source. And even Fadix had to admit that these are Russian army clothes. The only army in the world that time that uses these two types of hats were the russian Army. the only two armies that use that long hat is Russian and Ottoman army. If it is not Turkish army (my sources clearly show that) than it is the russian army. And yes none army clothes match perfectly except for the hat combination that is why I say these are armenian Volunteers accompanied by Russian Officers. Minor differences are due to weather conditions, supply problems or they are the Armenian Volunteers. And I am telling you the dead guys are circumcised. What are you after still? I addet the german clothes because the german officers were in command of the ottoman army at that time. The last one is the revolutionary army clothes (1917) I added it to show that the rifle and bayonet is Russian style since it is perfectly visible there. What written proof is needed for a Forged picture?????? Do the Turkish side has to find the source of all made up pictures. it is the responsibilty of genocide Zealots. Take a close look at that famous otoman officers posing in front of choppet heads it also has no source and looks damm like photomontage. Now who is supposed to show it is real? the Turks? I guess not!!!!neurobio 20:33, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Calling all those academics "distinguished" is subjective and factually dishonest. What makes them so exceptional in comparison to Deborah Lipstadt, Elie Wiesel, and Samantha Power? Heath Lowry never held a full-time job as a college professor and all the books he had written were never carried by a mainstream publishing press. His Ataturk Chair in Turkish Studies at Princeton was partially funded by the Turkish government and Ahmet Ertegun, the Turkish co-founder of Atlantic Records. Bernard Lewis' position on the Genocide is equally dubious: he originally referred to it as a "terrible holocaust" in his 1962 book The Emergence of Modern Turkey and was subsequently fined (for a mere one franc) in France for denying the Genocide after reversing his position on the issue.

Stanford Shaw's essays on the Genocide have been widely criticized for portraying conditions during the war as especially rosy and pleasant, "The Armenians were to be protected and cared for until they returned to their homes after the war [obviously that didnt' happen]...Muslims wishing to occupy abandoned buildings could do so only as renters...with the understanding that they would have to leave when the original owners returned [oddly enough, several hundred thousand Armenians never did]...The deportees and their possessions were to be guarded by the army while in transit as well as in Iraq and Syria...the government would provided for their return once the crisis was over" - History of the ottoman Empire and Modern Turkey vol.2 Reform, Revolution and Republic: The rise of Modern Turkey.

McCarthy is a whole other bag of worms. Most, if not all, these academics can be discounted from holding any distinction.--MarshallBagramyan 21:50, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

unlike you I don think I have an ultimate authority to judge on historians still I wonder why armenians love "genocide scolars" who are actually Physicians, economicians or publishers so much. Anyway I will not talk about it. I discussed the reason why I added that (look down). If you are not happy with it that we should write down all academics who are opposing.neurobio 22:01, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Repeating the Turkish government's line of "leave the debate to the historians" gets old. Most scholars have discounted the "opposition's" arguments.

I suggest the "revert war" to end. Discuss and argue changes here. --MarshallBagramyan 22:09, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

I respect such a decision. I have left wiki for 3 monts because i got fed up with revert wars.neurobio 22:30, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Now we are adding balakian haliculations there ha. McCarthy is a bag of worms and Balakian is cool.neurobio 14:05, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Um, Balakian simply collected the quotes....I don't think he ever made grand claims like McCarthy's ridiculous "2.5 million dead Muslims" claims --MarshallBagramyan 23:29, 18 September 2006 (UTC).

yes quotes that are results of selective copy pasting and miss leading and by the way quotes that can never be proven like the hitler quote. that number is the total muslim death in word war I what is so ridiculous about it. only in Gelibolu turkish army lost 300.000 in sarikamis 90.000 russian-armenia army killed some 500.000 plus poverty hunger and disease as simple as that. if you are going to add armenian sources then we can add Turkish sources and you wont like them for sure.neurobio 11:37, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Are you for real? Turkish army deaths? You're forgetting the dead from tribal Kurdish death squads:rolleyes 5,500,000 German soldiers died in WWII!--Eupator 14:25, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

as it is robustly documented from Ottoman archives 500.000 muslim deaths due to Russian-Armenian army and Armenian insurgent attacks are all civilians mostly women, children and elderly people.neurobio 00:23, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Whether the Ottoman archives support your claims that 500,000 Muslims died or not, if you actually saw all of the documents within it, you would see overwhelming proof supporting the idea that the deaths of Armenians in the final years of the Ottoman Empire were a result of a full-scale genocide. -- Clevelander 00:50, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

that is the tragic part. England was in control of Ottoman archive for years. they were desperately looking for evidence against prisoners in malta who were all high ranking Ottoman young turk officers. They found nothing. Ottoman archives are open today Your new draft Hilmar Kaiser(or something like that)and an another armenian researcher from an armenian institute worked there for months. they copied some 3000 documents illegally and found nothing. but SECRET orders to protect armenians to supply water and food to secure their belongings are plenty. Document showing the armeinan uprising and atrocities are plenty. Orders leting armenians to come back are plenty If you had a single document from ottoman archive Diaspora could have gone to an international court and end this for all. You could get good money and recognition from Turkey. Your case is not not valid and unproveble in terms of law. actually quite disproved by Ottoman documents. That is why you cant go to a court and end this. but instead diaspora continues propaganda all around so that this will be common knowledge someday.neurobio 00:46, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Opposition

First Due to the Nopov policiy this section cannot be named as Denial.Second there are some 20 western (as if they are more reliable) academics who oppose genocide claims. Inorder to make that article like a real article rather than a list we previously left only several prominent names and described them as prominent or distinguished. if these words go then 15 more names come back.neurobio 20:58, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

See WP:NPOV#Undue weight. If the vast majority of academics call it denial, then it should be presented as such (as a majority view) —Khoikhoi 21:14, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

in the academic community no word such as Denial is used except for "genocide scolars".

I will not discuss weather the genocide is universal or not. let me put it simple. is ASALA terorist? is Al kaida terorist. Is ETA terorist. Yes. But they are not named as Terorist organisations as a resuly of NoPov policy. As simple as that! I see not much has changed here. No discussion an many reverts...neurobio 21:19, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Not because of NPOV, but because of Wikipedia:Words to avoid#Terrorist, terrorism... —Khoikhoi 21:21, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

it is just a subbranch of Nopov policy. Main idea is the same.neurobio 21:23, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Hardly. It's more of a style guidline for making Wikipeida encyclopedic. —Khoikhoi 21:33, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Come on khoikhoi I know its difficult for you but at least try to be honest, your arguments are hollow lutherian 15:52, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

well we dont think the same here then. the section was named as opposition for a year. it was logical and true since the opposing party was also academics and historians. now what happened that it has become denial. Somebody found an archive document in tha Ottoman archives which says kill all armenians or what?neurobio 21:39, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

yeah its ironic how the same clowns that hijacked this topic and ganged up in a coordinated way with revert wars now ask that it be stopped right after they added their trash. Its also funny how the topic tends to get blocked right after the genocide gang have added their propaganda material. lutherian 15:58, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Armenian Population

According to

- Marcel Léart, an Armenian (Krikor Zohrab), who took the Armenian Patriarchate statistics as a basis of his estimates 2,560,000

- Armenian historian K. J. Basmachian 2,380,000

- Armenian Delegation that participated in the Paris Peace Conference 2,250,000

- Armenian historian Kevork Aslan 1,800,000

- French Yellow Book 1,555,000

- Encyclopaedia Britannica 1,500,000

- Ludovic de Constenson 1,400,000

- H.F.B. Lynch 1,345,000

- Revue de Paris 1,300,000

- 1893 Ottoman statistics 1,001,465

- 1906 Ottoman statistics 1,120,748

- Ottoman statistics just before World War I 1,295,000

- Annual Register (London) 1,056,000

in lausanne peace treaty numbers from Ludovic de Constenson were used. the allies (england, France etc.) stated that Armenian numbers are highly inflated. neurobio 00:36, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

It takes a little satisfaction to compare figures for Anatolia, Armenian Villiets, Asiatic Turkey with those of the entire Ottoman Empire. But do toy with articles, I don't have time to babysit. Fad (ix) 01:35, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

- :p neurobio 23:08, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Eupator you have nothing to say... you are just a revert machine. I am citing Turkish sources and impartial sources count ha. lets se your references.

Balakian, Peter (2003). The Burning Tigris: The Armenian Genocide and America's Response. HarperCollins. ISBN 0060198400.

Dadrian, Vahakn, N., The History of the Armenian Genocide: Ethnic Conflict from the Balkans to Anatolia to the Caucasus, Berghahn Books, 1995

Cilicia.com - "Kurdistan Recognizes the Armenian Genocide"

OurArarat.com - "International Affirmation And Recognition Of The Armenian Genocide"

and so on. "you say also you need a ref for each name you and that so called "scholar" should at least be notable enough to have a wiki page". that is a very valid approach. From now on people who dont have a wiki page will loose their chairs. All these people have Prof. title and a chair in US universities. What are you talking about??? neurobio 00:54, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

GreekWarrior has returned

Turkic barbarians run for the hills! AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH! --GreekWarrior 17:58, 25 September 2006 (UTC)