Template talk:Oriental Orthodox sidebar

Oriental Orthodox Churches

Malankara Jacobite Syrian Orthodox Church and Malabar Independent Syrian Church are two churches in India which follows Oriental Orthodox faith. What is the problem in including these churches in the portal? ThanksMandrake_the_Magician (talk) 03:15, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

Any Church in this world which follows the Oriental Orthodox creed, beliefs and rituals are considered Oriental Orthodox .You may please read the Wikipedia articles about Jacobite Church and Thozhiyoor Church. Both are Oriental Orthodox churches. May be NOT all these churches are in full communion. However Oriental Orthodoxy portal encompasses all churches in the world which follows Oriental Orthodox creed, beliefs, and rituals.Thanks Mandrake_the_Magician (talk) 03:26, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

This is an unnecessary confusion knowingly or unknowingly brought in to this topic. Anyway I will answer to your arguments here:

First of all, Oriental Orthodoxy is a "Communion" and this portal/side bar intended for the member churches in this communion - churches which are not part of this communion can not be listed out here. Eg: Malabar Independent Church. There are many churches outside Oriental Orthodoxy but follow OO tradition & faith. Similar case is applicable for Eastern Orthodox also. But those churches will not be considered as OO church/ EO Church. That is, just following the faith will not qualify a church to be considered as OO/EO/Catholic/Anglican, definitely they should be in Communion.

Now we will discuss about Malankara Jacobite Syrian Orthodox church, it is an autonomous body of Syriac Orthodox Church and its Primate is Patriarch of Syriac Orthodox church, that means its a regional entity of Syriac Orthodox Church. Its not an AUTOCEPHALOUS church as other Six churches namely Ethiopian, Coptic, Armenian, Syrian, Indian(Malankara Orthodox)and Eritrean Churches. Regional/autonomous bodies of any OO churches will not be considered as a separate OO church member. That is , French Coptic Orthodox Church is an OO church as it is part of Coptic Orthodox Church of Alexandria and Malankara Jacobite Syrian Orthodox Church is an OO church as it is part of Syriac Orthodox Church. But there is no point in listing out all the autonomous bodies of these 6 member churches. It is irrelevant and redundant. In case of Catholic Church, there are more than 30 churches having autonomous power. Are we going to list out all of them in the 'Christianity' template?? no, wee keep only 'Catholic' ---171.48.29.171 (talk) 04:31, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

Oriental Orthodoxy is a set of beliefs, rituals and creeds , NOT any communion of churches. Otherwise provide three valid published reference for your claim.

If this portal name is Oriental Orthodoxy, it should include the churches which follows that faith.I am wondering WHO decided that only the churches in communion will be listed in this portal? Just curios to know. Jacobite church is an Autonomous church with its head as Catholicos. It is a Malankara Church which follows Oriental Orthodox faith. Simply using the word Malankara for denoting Orthodox syrian church is not correct. Malanakara encompasses all Malankara churches= Malankara Church. Instead, use Malankara Orthodox to denote Orthodox Syrian church.Mandrake_the_Magician (talk) 04:59, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

Also about your claim of communion---please give any one reference for this. I have gone through the reference you cited. It doesn't say anything about any communion in the reference. If it says so , please quote it here from the reference. ThanksMandrake_the_Magician (talk) 05:32, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

If a church to be considered as a Oriental Orthodox church, other member churches are also to be recognized them as a OO member church. Its not based on any particular church's claims. Again its not based on what belief/creed they follow. For example, tomorrow any bishop from Malankara Orthodox/Malankara Jacobite form a new church and claims to be an OO church (even if they claim the new church an autocephalous one), its definitely not going to be listed here. ---171.48.29.171 (talk) 06:04, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

On your remark "Jacobite church is an Autonomous church with its head as Catholicos" - The Catholicose of Jacobite is not considered as an OO church Head as Armenian Catholiose or Malankara Orthodox Catholicose or any other Primates of other OO member churches listed in the template. Jacobite church will not be invited separately for any international oriental orthodox meetings since they are part of Syriac Orthodox Church. ---171.48.29.171 (talk) 06:10, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

On your concern "Simply using the word Malankara" - Please note, the link provided leads to Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church. Same style is followed in other OO churches Coptic & Syriac, even Catholic/EO churches are having the name "Coptic" or "Syriac" but in this template they are referred as simply Coptic or Syriac. - --171.48.29.171 (talk) 06:22, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

Again on your comment "Also about your claim of communion---please give any one reference for this" . Its not my claim and its a fact and that statement has been there in Wiki Article on Oriental Orthodoxy since years. Please refer the britanica article also : https://www.britannica.com/topic/Christology/Eastern-Orthodox-Christology#ref1228673 which says "The other main branch of Orthodoxy is constituted by the six national churches of the Oriental Orthodox communion: the Armenian Apostolic Church, the Coptic Orthodox Church of Alexandria, the Syriac Orthodox Patriarchate of Antioch and All the East, the Malankara (Indian) Syrian Orthodox Church, the Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church, and the Eritrean Orthodox Tewahedo Church" . - 171.48.29.171 (talk) 06:41, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

Wow, this turned into a rather massive debate in just one day... Okay. Let me add my own contribution here. The Malankara Jacobite Syrian Orthodox Church is an autonomous subdivision of the Syriac Orthodox Church. Some of the other Oriental Churches also have similar subdivisions - for example there are four different autonomous Armenian Churches under the umbrella of the Armenian Apostolic Church. We could theoretically include all these different subdivisions in the sidebar, but then it would get extremely long and clunky. It's much better to simply list the main autocephalous Churches, of which there are six, without their various subdivisions.

As for the Malabar Independent Syrian Church, that is a small Church that affirms itself to be Oriental Orthodox but is not part of the Oriental Orthodox communion. There are several other such Churches in the world as well - for example the British Orthodox Church. I don't see a reason to include these in the sidebar, just like the Catholic Church sidebar does not include any one of the many groups that call themselves Catholic but are not in communion with Rome.

So, my vote is for the original version of the template, where there is one single "Malankara" link and that link goes to the Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church, which is the only one of the three Malankara Churches that is both autocephalous and part of the OO communion. It also seems to be the largest, at least according to the numbers we have right now on the wiki. I would be fine with switching the link to point to the article Malankara Church as well (the one that talks about all three Churches collectively), although I think that is a second-best option. Ohff (talk) 08:38, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

I really appreciate Ohff's effort in going through the discussions and providing the suggestions. You understood things in right way. But I have a disagreement with the second best option - giving the link to Malankara Church from OO Side Bar - for the reason that it would be a factual error. Let me explain that here: Apart from Malankara Orthodox, Malankara Jacobite and Malabar Independent there are other 2 churches also shares Malankara Church heritage and uses "Malankara" in their names - they are : Malankara Mar Thoma Syrian Church (website:http://marthoma.in/) and Syro-Malankara Catholic Church. These churches have considerable population when compared to Malabar Independent Church. But Marthoma church is a reformative church and Syro-Malankara is an eastern catholic church. Also these churches are NOT part of Oriental Orthodox faith (officially or unofficially) and they do not follow Miaphysite Christology!! Thanks - --171.48.29.171 (talk) 10:22, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

Another Church follows Oriental Orthodox faith but not part Oriental Orthodox Communion is Antiochian Syriac Orthodox Church in Germany. Similar to Malabar Independent Syrian Church, British Orthodox Church and Antiochian Syriac Orthodox Church there are many other churches also follow Oriental Orthodox faith. But it is not a good idea to list them as part of Oriental Orthodox Side Bar. If really needed, create a separate section in the Oriental Orthodox article and list them out there. ---171.48.29.171 (talk) 10:41, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

What is my opinion is Oriental Orthodoxy is a Christology like Nestorian or Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox. It is not just about communion of some churches that follow that Christology. The communion or ecumenical relationship only developed recently. Oriental Orthodoxy is a branch of Christianity (separated from the main branch after the Council of Chalcedon in 451)ThanksMandrake_the_Magician (talk) 15:15, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

I respectfully disagree with your opinion. Oriental Orthodoxy is a specific communion and that is how all the sources treat it. That is also how wikipedia treats it, and how it treats all the other similar branches of Christianity. "Roman Catholic", for example, is not a Christology. It is a specific communion. Look at the Catholic Church sidebar. Notice that it does not include the Old Catholic Church, or the Polish National Catholic Church, or the Celtic Catholic Church, or any of the other churches that consider themselves Catholic but are not part of the main communion. The Oriental Orthodox christology is called Miaphysitism and it has its own separate article. Likewise, Catholic Church and Catholicism are different articles. Ohff (talk) 18:27, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

However, I can propose a compromise. This sidebar has a section called "other topics". If you'd like, we can include the Thozhiyoor Church there. I can also create a section on autonomous churches that would include the Malankara Jacobite Syrian Orthodox Church and the other subdivisions. What do you think? Ohff (talk) 18:27, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

Whether large or small , all churches which follow the same christology are equal and should be included in the Oriental Orthodoxy portal. Why some people restrict some churches only based the claim that they are auto cephalous or largest among Malankara churches? Is that a fair policy? Thanks.Mandrake_the_Magician (talk) 15:25, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

We could theoretically include all these different subdivisions in the sidebar, but then it would get extremely long and clunky??????. If it is long and clunky to include in this portal , Why these churches are NOT mentioned in the Oriental Orthodoxy article which has good space there ? ThanksMandrake_the_Magician (talk) 16:02, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

They are mentioned in the Oriental Orthodoxy article. The section of that article dealing with India mentions both the Malankara Jacobite Syrian Orthodox Church and the Malabar Independent Syrian Church. Maybe the section should be longer and say more things about them, but they are clearly mentioned. Ohff (talk) 18:15, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

Oriental Orthodox is a geo-locatory classification and Miaphysite is a Christological classification. ThanksMandrake_the_Magician (talk) 21:56, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

On what basis you are saying its a geo-locatory classification? ---171.48.29.171 (talk) 21:57, 7 May 2017 (UTC)