Talk:Cold fusion

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To do items from an archive discussion

7. The episode in 1990 when Gary Taubes and Science magazine made an accusation of experimental fraud at Texas A&M, which was proved false, needs to be covered.

8. A description of tritium results needs to be added.

10. Description of helium experiments needs to include hollow cathode experiments.

11. The skeptics assumption of hot fusion results need to be put in clearer terms. --Ron Marshall 18:06, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

12. It needs to be pointed out in the commercial section that a theory that explains the experimental results is necessary before an accurate estimate of commercial potential can be made.--Ron Marshall 19:41, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

is LENR a subset of CMNS ?

The article currently says : "Cold fusion is the popular term used to refer to what is now called "low energy nuclear reactions" (LENR), a subset of "condensed matter nuclear science"". What are the other parts of CMNS ? How do they differ from LENR ? Do we have a source for this statement ? Because this is in the intro, we need to be absolutely sure of it, and avoid original research. Pcarbonn 05:23, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

about the "quotefarm" tag

Found in WP:QUOTE:

Third, while quotations are an indispensable part of Wikipedia, try not to overuse them. Too many quotes take away from the encyclopedic feel of Wikipedia. Also, editors should avoid long quotations if they can keep them short. Long quotations not only add to the length of many articles that are already too long, but they also crowd the actual article and remove attention from other information."

Pcarbonn 06:13, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

PCarbonn, I removed the quotefarm tag. I am losing patience with your games.--Ron Marshall 18:00, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

PCarbonn, this is not about editing, this is about your bias and your effort to suppress the experimenters point of view. The problem is a DOE panelist made himself and his cohorts look bad and despite all the insults of experimenters in the article you cannot let that stand. If I turned the quote into statements you would invent some other excuse.--Ron Marshall 18:24, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Ron, this is only about writing a good wikipedia article. I put the tag back. Let's turn these quotes into statements, and we'll both be happy.Pcarbonn 14:28, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Ron, I removed your statements about me: they are plain wrong and out of place (see WP:ATTACK), and I ignore them anyway. My only concern is to write a good wikipedia article. Now that the history section has been moved to a sub-article, we have more room to discuss the fine points of the argument.Pcarbonn 07:26, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Bias

The most important - and hence most controversial - matter that this article should address is what the scientific community at large has to say about cold fusion. Do they shun it? Do they approach it with interest? Is skepticism abating? What results (accepted by the scientific community) are there? How are they interpreted? The lead addresses this as follows:

The latest mainstream review of research in LENR occurred in 2004 when the US Department of Energy set up a panel of eighteen scientists. When asked "Is there compelling evidence for power that cannot be attributed to ordinary chemical or solid-state sources", the panelists were evenly split. When asked about low energy nuclear reactions, two thirds of the panel did not feel that there was any conclusive evidence, five found the evidence "somewhat convincing" and one was entirely convinced. The nearly unanimous opinion of the reviewers was that funding agencies should entertain individual, well-designed proposals for experiments in this field. Critics say that the DOE review had too limited a scope and inappropriate review process.

Alright, I was somewhat skeptical (evidence proportional to claims), but this sounds good. Of course, the best source of information is probably the Report itself, so I went to have a look.

While significant progress has been made in the sophistication of calorimeters since the review of this subject in 1989, the conclusions reached by the reviewers today are similar to those found in the 1989 review.

Is what the conclusion states. Haha - something's not quite right here, is it? Looking closer, I see other ...mistakes.

"Is there compelling evidence for power that cannot be attributed to ordinary chemical or solid-state sources" is not the question asked, and a needless re-intepretation of the report's "evidence for excess power is compelling". Don't use quotes unless quoting, and don't needlessly change "excess power" to "power that cannot be attributed to ordinary chemical or solid-state sources". And don't skip something as seemingly important as "Most reviewers, including those who accepted the evidence and those who did not, stated that the effects are not repeatable, the magnitude of the effect has not increased in over a decade of work, and that many of the reported experiments were not well documented."

"When asked about low energy nuclear reactions, two thirds of the panel did not feel that there was any conclusive evidence, five found the evidence 'somewhat convincing' and one was entirely convinced." is a needless substitute for "Two-thirds of the reviewers [...] did not feel the evidence was conclusive for low energy nuclear reactions, one found the evidence convincing, and the remainder indicated they were somewhat convinced."

"...funding agencies should entertain individual, well-designed proposals for experiments in this field." is much more general than the specific and explicit "...funding agencies should entertain individual, well-designed proposals for experiments that address specific scientific issues relevant to the question of whether or not there is anomalous energy production in Pd/D systems, or whether or not D-D fusion reactions occur at energies on the order of a few eV."

Criticisms such as "Many reviewers noted that poor experiment design, documentation, background control and other similar issues hampered the understanding and interpretation of the results presented." were entirely omitted.

But my biggest objection is, why isn't the clear conclusion being provided? I see that the current paragraph makes cold fusion seem quite legitimate (not to say that it's illegitimate - I don't know), while the actual conclusion states that nothing has changed since the 1989 review - the review isn't mentioned in the article. I doubt that it had "good" things to say about cold fusion, considering the history. The motive seems clear.

Moving up a paragraph, we see "However, from 1989 to the present many scientists report experimental observations of..." - someone is mistaken as to what "many" means. They probably should have used the word "some", or "few" - unless in fact "many" is the correct word, which I doubt.

Looking at the citations for the first paragraph:

1. Mizuno, T., "Nuclear Transmutation: The Reality of Cold Fusion". 1998, Concord, NH: Infinite Energy Press
2. Beaudette, Charles. Excess Heat: Why Cold Fusion Research Prevailed, 2nd. Ed. South Bristol, ME, Oak Grove Press, 2002. ISBN 0-9678548-3-0.
3. Hagelstein P. et al., "New physical effects in metal deuterides", submitted to the 2004 DoE panel on cold fusion [2]
4. Mallove, Eugene. "Fire from Ice: Searching for the Truth Behind the Cold Fusion Furor". Concord, N.H.: Infinite Energy Press, 1991. ISBN 1-892925-02-8
5. Krivit, Steven ; Winocur, Nadine. The Rebirth of Cold Fusion: Real Science, Real Hope, Real Energy. Los Angeles, CA, Pacific Oaks Press, 2004 ISBN 0-9760545-8-2

One is the paper submitted to the panel. The rest are books and hence not easily verifyable, and come from unknown (in google) or suggestively named ("infinite energy press") publishers - which is all fine, but not when other sources are lacking. The citations for the second paragraph were surprising - considering the tone, I expected critisicm from the scientific community at large. Instead, it's critisicm given by proponents. That simply doesn't belong in the lead section, not unless it's as important as the definition (it isn't), the history (it isn't), the current state of affairs (it isn't), and a clarification that needs to be shortened.

Citations in an article as obviously controversial as this should be expanded. What did Mizuno's book say, exactly? Don't be afraid to cite the paragraph. If that paragraph for example refers us to 4 experiments that have been carried out cite the results of those experiments instead of the book.

Looking now at the first citation, the one that addresses "but the public debate abated quickly and cold fusion was generally rejected by the mainstream scientific community", I see that it points to an article titled "DOE Warms to Cold Fusion". Rebuttals not what citations are for. Simply write it out - "...rejected by the mainstream scientific community. However, the DOE has decided to proceed with an evaluation of...[1]" - which really doesn't deserve mention anymore. Those citing sources have a look at Multiple_uses_of_the_same_footnote.

Though it initially seemed alright, I'm going to remove "Cold fusion is the popular term used to refer to what is now called "low energy nuclear reactions" (LENR), part of the field of "condensed matter nuclear science" (CMNS). ". It's not cited is one reason, but the main reason is that ofter debunked subjects of inquiry tend to, amongst their supporters, have their name changed to something new to avoid that past stigma (not to say that cold fusion is debunked). I suspect that this is what "LENR" is about. Regardless, you refer to the topic by its title, otherwise the page should be moved to "Low energy nuclear reaction" - if not, then this naming comment belongs at the end of history, and not up in the lead.

This is just the introduction. I don't care about cold fusion. I am, however, intolerant of the sort of bias that this article presents. If you're a proponent of cold fusion, please stop editing this article, or edit it to the extent that your position is represented by the scientific community. I see the notice, but since I doubt that a rebuttal to this will show that green is red and that this isn't all just bias, I'm going to change the lead section to address these concerns. –M^T 22:41, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

BIAS

Dear M:

I have a pro-cf bias. I admit it and make no attempt to hide it. And I also respect anyone who has an anti-cf bias and backs up their positions with logic, courtesy, references and cooperates with others amicably and with Wikilove.

Normally when one wants to make drastic changes, the considerate thing to do is to propose it first in the TALK, give it a few days, and then see how it goes. You appear to have lost tolerance for, or are ignorant of this mode of community effort.

I cannot say that I have found your recent action to be respectful or neutral - as you allege. Your anti-cf bias shows quite clearly. Please don't come here and play games. Many people have been working very hard on this page for quite some time. Perhaps you had a bad day or something. Anyway, you need to play nice here or find some other sandbox to play in.

Now, on to matters of fact.

1. You state "The most important - and hence most controversial - matter that this article should address is what the scientific community at large has to say about cold fusion. Do they shun it? Do they approach it with interest? Is skepticism abating?"

You need to defend the following points:

1a. Why should scientific opinion be the most important aspect of this article? Is opinion more important than the actual research and scientific facts?

1b. How do you know what the "scientific community at large" is? Have you done some sort of survey? Do you have a reference for the "scientific community at large"? Are you alleging that 18 members of the 2004 DOE panel represent the "scientific community at large"

1c. To directly answer your question, I might direct you to the excellent online magazine, New Energy Times. They appear to be quite expert in this subject matter. They recently reported on a U.S. Navy Science and Technology conference this summer that took place in Washington, D.C. To answer your questions, based on editor Steven Krivit's article http://newenergytimes.com/news/2006/NET18.htm#FROMED it would seem that interest is growing and skepticism is abating. You may also note that, as Krivit says, " LENR research was one of many other research areas and applications presented at the conference. They included inertial confinement fusion, fuel cells, biodiesel, coal, wind, and synthetic hydrocarbon liquids." Of course, you can dismiss Krivit as biased, if you wish, but he *was* there in Washington, D.C. and apparently he did meet generals, admirals and the like. Did you attend the conference?

2. As far as the 2004 DOE Cold Fusion review, I'm as confused as you are as to the origin of those quotes and would be quite pleased to see the specific references. I've looked at the charge letter http://newenergytimes.com/DOE/2004-DOE-ChargeLetter.pdf and I don't see that language, though I believe that language may have come from some of the reviewers own personal comments, http://newenergytimes.com/DOE/2004-DOE-ReviewerComments.pdf though I don't care to nitpick and hunt that down at the moment.

3.Next matter is your comment, "someone is mistaken as to what "many" means. They probably should have used the word "some", or "few" - unless in fact "many" is the correct word, which I doubt."

There seem to be about 200 researchers around the world who have been working on this over the last few years. When I say "working," my definition is anyone who has written or co-authored a paper on the subject. If you have an argument with that metric, please let me know. The references for these people are in the conference abstracts. If you go to the New Energy Times "Conferences" page, http://newenergytimes.com/Conf/conf.htm you will find a rather detailed index of conferences, and under many of the headings, you'll find links to conference abstracts. Read them - count the researchers over the last few years - tell me how mistaken I am. Also, you might try going to some of the conferences and meeting some of them first hand. If you're near Russia, the next big international conference is in 2007. If you're in the U.S., the conference will be in Washington, D.C. in 2008. I would expect attendance over 200 in D.C. but not so many in Russia due to the travel challenges.

4. Next item: " The rest are books and hence not easily verifyable"

What do you mean "not easily verifyable?" Do you mean accessible? If so, try Amazon; you can purchase all the books [Mallove, Krivit/Wincour, Mizuno and Beaudette] there. Do you mean that the contents in the books are not reliable, accurate, or the sources are not identified? For someone who is trying to improve the factual basis of a scientific article, your suggestion of a less-than-credible reference as these, due to "not easily verifyable?" is so ridiculous that it really makes me wonder. You do realize, of course, the pains that authors, publishers and their lawyers go through to assure the factualness of their books before they spend ten to forty thousand dollars on a book run?

I've read Krivit and Beaudette's books in detail. Seems as though they provide ample references to "verify" their content.

5. And what is your point: "and come from unknown (in google) or suggestively named ("infinite energy press") publishers"

Is a book not a worthy book unless it is published by a publisher which is well-known and established? You're making me laugh now. Infinite-Energy Press - yes, duh, of course it is suggestive. Got a problem with it? You say, "which is all fine." You're talking out of both sides of your mouth. If you didn't have a problem with "Infinite-Energy Press" you wouldn't have mentioned it.

6. Next item: "Though it initially seemed alright, I'm going to remove "Cold fusion is the popular term used to refer to what is now called "low energy nuclear reactions" (LENR), part of the field of "condensed matter nuclear science" (CMNS). ". It's not cited is one reason, but the main reason is that after debunked subjects of inquiry tend to, amongst their supporters, have their name changed to something new to avoid that past stigma (not to say that cold fusion is debunked). I suspect that this is what "LENR" is about."

6a. The reference for this was identified in this page as a need a while ago. So, thanks to you, I searched and found a reference. Now, you're going to have to be a bit patient with this. It's not in any textbook at the moment. First of all, this "cold fusion" idea is only 17 years old. Second, it's been a pretty big mish-mosh of information. However, if you go to the people who - at least claim to - be experts on the topic, you'll find that this is their understanding of CMNS and LENR.

I won't bore you with the details, but I will suggest you read item #9 in New Energy Times FAQ http://newenergytimes.com/PR/LENR-FAQ.htm

Nagel, by the way, the author of the graph, is a college Prof, and is retired from a very high-ranking position in the U.S. Naval Research Laboratory in the condensed matter group. He's been speaking about CMNS/LENR to government, military and scientific groups for the last few years including the DOD, APS, NRL. Ask him, if you can't google this - it's not something that's been highly publicized - but first try googling him on New Energy Times. Please don't even suggest that he's unqualified.

6b. "after debunked subjects of inquiry" Guess what, my friend? It was never debunked. *That's* bunk! Caltech, MIT and others did slipshod hasty experiments in less than 6 weeks and then called it quits.

Take a look at Krivit's Historical Analysis of Key Cold Fusion Experiments http://newenergytimes.com/Reports/HistoricalAnalysisSummaryCharts.htm . I'm sure you've never heard of the guy and he's not a scientist, but just look what he's researched - it's all referenced - all laid out on the table. Krivit's been speaking around the world for the last few years on this stuff - in front of real nuclear physicists -http://newenergytimes.com/contact/contact.htm#appearances and as far as I know, nobody has challenged him or found problems with his investigations.

6c. " amongst their supporters, have their name changed to something new to avoid that past stigma (not to say that cold fusion is debunked). I suspect that this is what "LENR" is about."

Sorry to disappoint you, but AFAIK, nobody involved in "cold fusion" really gives a hoot what the rest of the world thinks anymore. I'm mean, really, after the beating its taken, how much further in the ghetto of science can it get?

It's called LENR, AFAIK, for several reasons:

1. The hypothesis of "fusion" is even debated among those in the "cold fusion" field.

2. As I've heard, there are some reactions that are clearly not even fusion, some kind of low energy transmutation, perhaps fissions, perhaps something new.

3. There is a new theory out by Widom and Larsen http://newenergytimes.com/news/2006/NET18.htm#wl4 that suggests that LENR has something to do with ultra low momentum neutrons - not fusion, not fission.

The name "cold fusion" was stupid in the first place, it was not chosen by F&P and it is stupid, except when referring to the history, to continue to use it to describe the science.

Yes, science.

STemplar 06:08, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

I would appreciate it if somone feels so inspired and willing, to revert the draconian changes by M. I will do it myself, if neccessary but I would prefer to see if there is community agreement with my position, and I would also like to avoid an edit war.

STemplar 06:13, 30 September 2006 (UTC)