Talk:Dawn

Thread tradition

Is anyone going to support this "thread tradition" of dawn? If not, I move to delete it. --In Defense of the Artist 04:45, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

This seems to be an Islamic thing, from the Qur'an, on the start time of the fasting of Ramadan[1][2][3][4]. As for calling this "tradition", I do not think that this is justified.

Hence, I second your motion, and will remove this from the article. If someone else wants to reference this in this specific context, then they can put it back as appropriate.

Leevclarke 02:17, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

I came to Dawn for my first time today and found the thread assertion to be far too boldly specific of a definition of dawn to be justified without a citation or even the slightest hint of source, so I checked this discussion. Obviously, it is long overdue for deletion or adjustment. Before getting to that point in the article, I had been expecting that it would be gentle with the word by admitting that it is a somewhat vague word that is impossible to define by decree, such that anything very specific would require the word to be in context, such as Islamic tradition in the thread case, or would require adjectives such as some scientific acronym to refer to an exact dawn type by standard measure. The thread contribution may be integrated as having been made in good faith, if it is humbled to clarity about which context in which that definition is used.Samuel Erau (talk) 15:18, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

Upon further investigation, it turns out that I am responding to a resurfacing of a similar idea, but a totally different contribution which added to the lead with Revision as of 20:05, 6 June 2010 and had not been discussed until today. To prevent further recurrences, I should replace it with a suggestion to see the Religion section.Samuel Erau (talk) 15:46, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

Conflicting definitions

I'm changing this language:

• Astronomical dawn is the time at which the sun is 18 degrees below the horizon in the morning. Astronomical dawn is that point in time at which the sun starts lightening the sky. ...
• Nautical dawn is the time at which the sun is 12 degrees below the horizon in the morning. Nautical dawn is defined as that time at which there is just enough sunlight for the horizon and some objects to be distinguishable.
• Civil dawn is the time at which the sun is 6 degrees below the horizon in the morning. Civil dawn is defined as that time at which there is enough light for objects to be distinguishable and that outdoor activities can commence.

Each clause gives two definitions, which may be considered normally equivalent but not logically equivalent. Either of the two following paraphrases would make more sense:

• Dawn is defined as the moment when the sun is N degrees below the horizon; at that time there is usually enough light, bla bla.
• Dawn is defined as the moment at which a specified amount of light is present; this usually occurs when the sun is N degrees below the horizon.

The first is formal and measurable, the second is subject to judgement, so I'm assuming the first definition is more correct and rewriting the passage accordingly. —Tamfang 05:22, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

As a female name and folklore

I'm removing this little bit because it sounds like a line out of a sci-fi or fantasy novel, Dawn is a name given to women so they can protect people from monsters? Outside of the Buffyverse people are given the name Dawn because its pretty, because its symbolizes the love a parent feels for the new life and the changes she or he brings, not because they want vampire or troll killers. Any author who uses the name acts as an idividual and chooses the name for some form of irony or symbolism, as such it has nothing to do with Folklore anymore than Dragonlance's Paladine has to do with actual historic paladins. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.137.207.191 (talk) 03:32, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

I also fail to see why only Western folklore is mentioned, I can think of a few Japanese and Chinese Ghosts and Vampires (or similar things best described as such in this language) that are non to light friendly. And vampires and trolls are pre-Christian, Christ is not mentioned at all, why is it needed to say non Christians believed similar, Christians came and merged with these believes, its more appropriate to say Christians believe the same. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.137.207.191 (talk) 03:37, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

And the explanation "beings creatures of darkness" sounds like it was given out by a narrowminded Priest. Odin is not much farther from darkness than a troll, the ice lady in Japanese folklore disliked the sun because it made her melt, demons because the Sun was a literal symbol of God, several angels had cognomen that refered to the sun, the Morningstar, Sword of Flame, Lucifer (latin for bringer of light).

When is it daylight? graph?

It would be interesting to know how many of the public are aware that none of the three dawns described here (astronomic dawn, nautical dawn and civil dawn) is the same as sunrise?

In some countries there is also lighting-up time which in England was 30 minutes before sunrise and after sunset.

For an example site, such as London, how would these three dawns & sun-dawn plus the evening equivalents show on a graph?? Salisbury-99 (talk) 09:16, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

Does "lighting-up time" refer to car headlights, or streetlamps, or what? —Tamfang (talk) 02:09, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

Vandal edits

User AviatorPontus is a variant of the permanently blocked vandal JP eriksson, whos edits we on sv:wp usually reverts on the spot. Plaese check the edits by this user.Yger (talk) 08:02, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

Sunrise ?

Shouldnt there be a "Sunrise" on the diagram. Sunset is present, why not sunrise ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gizziiusa (talk • contribs) 12:12, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

Potential impact?

As the calendar approaches the summer/winter solstices the days/nights get shorter, which can have a potential impact on the time and duration of dawn and dusk. What does "can" and "potential" mean in this sentence? In what cases are the times and durations not affected? --88.73.131.201 (talk) 15:17, 15 February 2014 (UTC)

Problem with "technical definitions"

I just posted this in dusk, it also applies here:

Chiefly, there is little justification for a "technical definition" of civil/nautical/astronomical dusk. I have just checked all three editions of the Explanatory Supplement to the Astronomical Almanac (1961, 1992, 2010), the Astronomical Almanacs for 1960, 1980, 2010, as well as Meeus' Astronomical Algorithms and Montenbruck's Practical Ephemeris Calculations. Not one of these publications defines a "civil dusk" or "nautical dawn". In fact, none of them ever use the words "dusk" or "dawn". It is always simply "end of civil twilight" or similar. These are definitive references - if it doesn't appear in them, it doesn't exist. Tfr000 (talk) 19:11, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

• A note on sunrise, sunset and twilight times from HM Nautical Almanac Office, The United Kingdom Hydrographic Office. Quoting:

There is no general agreement on a precise definition of "dawn"; it is sometimes even identified with sunrise itself. If, however, it is
interpreted as the time of "first light", dawn corresponds to a depression between 18° and 12° but it is not possible to be more precise.

Tfr000 (talk) 21:11, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

As per @Tfr000: 's comments immediately above, this article contains a lot of original research. None of the clickable cited sources even contains the word "dawn". There is no indication that there is really any technical definition that treats dawn as a specific point in time at the beginning of twilight, with the exception of the reference to Jewish law, which is not the basis for the general usage or scientific usage. General usage treats dawn either as a period of time or as the time of sunrise. For example, Wikipedia defines it as

(uncountable) The morning twilight period immediately before sunrise; (countable) The rising of the sun; (uncountable) The time when the sun rises.

Moreover, the article contradicts itself. While defining dawn as the point at which some degree of light begins, it shows a picture captioned Beginning of nautical dawn, which implies that dawn is a period of time that has a beginning. Then the section "Effects of latitude (equatorial)" refers to "all phases of dawn". Then the section Effects of latitude (polar) refers to the "duration of dawn". Then, the subsection Examples discusses irrelevancies about the noon sun, and editorializes that something "may call for a different classification of dawn ".

I'm going to go through the article and try to fix all this. Loraof (talk) 18:31, 24 October 2015 (UTC)

File:Twilight subcategories.svg

The file "File:Twilight subcategories.svg" was designed for dusk. If we are going to use it here, then it needs adapting by changing dusk to dawn. However, in view of the above section, perhaps it needs a more drastic change? Dbfirs 22:24, 25 December 2016 (UTC)

• I must be getting dementia, because I never saw it there. The two that are there now are perfect, and correct. P.S. You asked a question in your edit summary about defining the time of dawn as "the beginning", or first light. Yes, dawn starts at first light, however, every stage of morning twilight is equally dawn. I have adjusted your edit without reverting. Thanks→ Pocketthis (talk) 01:22, 14 December 2017 (UTC)

Thank you for your improvements. We are still using dawn in two different ways in the article. We need to decide which sense to use. Also, please note WP:ENGVAR. Dbfirs 08:21, 14 December 2017 (UTC)

• Please explain the "two different ways". I only see one. The 3 definitions or periods of dawn. Is it in another part of the article?? Thanks→ Pocketthis (talk) 16:40, 14 December 2017 (UTC)

We have: Dawn begins with the first sight of lightness in the morning, and continues until the sun breaks the horizon and Dawn ... is the time that marks the beginning of twilight (in the lead). There is also a discrepancy between the sun breaking the horizon, and the middle of the sun reaching the horizon, but this is geometrically only a quarter of a degree, or perhaps up to three-quarters of a degree with refraction, so the three minutes is probably not significant enough to worry about, though it does give us three different meanings for civil dawn. Dbfirs 09:10, 15 December 2017 (UTC)

• I have to disagree. The beginning of twilight in the morning is dawn, which is also the beginning of astronomical twilight: also dawn. Any time period in morning twilight is dawn. As to the center of the sun and breaking the horizon: Twilight ends when the sun breaks the horizon. It is then Sunrise. However, the "measurement" of that occurrence is calculated from the center of the sun. It is not saying that the sun needs to have half of its surface exposed to be sunrise. I went back in to the article and reworded the confusing rhetoric in the opener. I hope this helps us reach a consensus of its definition. Thanks→ Pocketthis (talk) 16:34, 15 December 2017 (UTC)

Less than six degrees from the horizon is imprecise and confusing. Sunrise occurs when the middle of the sun is just over five degrees below the horizon. I don't think we've cracked it yet, but I agreee that the word dawn is used in different ways. We need to state this clearly. Dbfirs 17:35, 15 December 2017 (UTC)

• Aren't we saying the exact same thing? "Less then 6 degrees" - "more than 5 degrees". Perhaps we should take the degrees out of the opener, and leave that for the lower explanation sections. I'll do that, and see what happens here. lol → Pocketthis (talk) 18:20, 15 December 2017 (UTC)

Most dictionaries define dawn as the beginning of twilight, but Wiktionary regards the word as a synonym of twilight, so I'll stop arguing. I appreciate your work in improving the article (except for your spelling change contravening WP:ENGVAR which perhaps you didn't notice). Dbfirs 19:08, 15 December 2017 (UTC)

• I'm glad we are at consensus. As far as a spelling issue, I saw your article pointer, and read it, but couldn't see how it related to anything I had changed. The only spelling change I am aware of is your: "centre" (British), and the now universal: "center". I'll fight you to round 15 on that one...lol.

Actually, if we must use British English here to make you happy, please change it back. I don't think any of us really care one way or the other on that spelling. Thanks for your help. → Pocketthis (talk) 19:26, 15 December 2017 (UTC)