Talk:The Matrix Resurrections

Production section

@Freemanukem: you wrote over this section with a significantly inferior version rife with unreliable sources, unneeded information and repeated information. I would like you to restore the previous version please. Rusted AutoParts 22:40, 4 February 2020 (UTC)

Hi, I have to disagree. This version addresses the exit of Joel Silver from the picture; mentions the filming location in Germany; does not go into detail into Penn's script which has nothing to do with this film; and so on. I made sure the references are from publications with an editorial team for reliability. Freemanukem (talk) 22:47, 4 February 2020 (UTC)

We don’t need to know about concept artists returning, or previous collaborations. The Silver exit isn’t tied to Matrix itself so it’s not relevant, Penns script was in regards to prior attempts at a new Matrix movie, the ComingSoon source for Max Reimart isn’t reliable when in comparison to the Deadline and Variety sources used for everyone else, the way everything is written is sloppy, the previous version was concise and to the point without needlessly being wordy about it. The Germany filming cite can be added into the old version, but It must be restored.

@Masem:, thoughts? Rusted AutoParts 22:52, 4 February 2020 (UTC)

Citing previous collaboration is very often done, for example check Avatar (2009 film) (a "good" article), which says "Composer James Horner scored the film, his third collaboration with Cameron after Aliens and Titanic." Silver was THE Matrix producer, he was the sole producer on the previous trilogy. His absence is almost on par with Lilly's in terms of change. Going into detail in Penn's script is not important because this is not his film. Why not keep the detail about his script for his film, should it get made. There was nothing concise about Penn's part, haha. Everything is open to criticism and improvement of course. Freemanukem (talk) 23:13, 4 February 2020 (UTC)

I will say that the prior version (Rusted's) is a better base to build on, as the sourcing is more reliable and it avoids proseline. I do disagree that prior collabs are not important: eg I remember the one about Lana's collabs from Jupiter Rising spelled out in one of a THR or Variety article and if they are called out there, its fine for us to include. (It would not be appropriate if we were making that connection for the first time). We should go back to Rusted's and work in anything new that is RSed to that. --Masem (t) 23:09, 4 February 2020 (UTC)

Hi, I have to disagree that the sourcing is better in that version. For example it says that filming will commence February 5 and cites this: https://www.bcnasf.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/PIC-COMMUNITY-OUTREACH-Flyer.pdf as it's source. This is a PDF ad by a casting agency. I wouldn't call this a reliable source at all. Does the agency have an editorial department? To me, it feels like a significant downgrade. Freemanukem (talk) 23:20, 4 February 2020 (UTC)

Than swap it if you wish, here’s a cite that says the same thing from that casting call. But it still stands the previous version of the section was a much cleaner written section and should be restored. Rusted AutoParts 23:23, 4 February 2020 (UTC)

You think reporting on Max Riemelt being in the film is not reliable because Variety and Deadline did not report on it, but will happily accept a Movieweb report of a casting agency having the film's production start in its ad. If you want to be fair, you should also expect nothing short of Variety or Deadline reporting on it before it's accepted. Freemanukem (talk) 23:30, 4 February 2020 (UTC)

I used it as an example to show the February 5 date could be found elsewhere than the PDF you took issue with. I am more stricter with casting citations because there’s a lot of different sites that make a lot of casting announcements that don’t get any mention from the higher up sites to help reinforce its accuracy. Every other actor on the page is cited with Deadline or Variety with the exception of Jonathan Groff who is cited by Collider, who have been reliable before. All I was getting at was if you didn’t like the PDF of the direct casting call you could use a different source. Rusted AutoParts 23:45, 4 February 2020 (UTC)

If you have to change the sources in order to make them reliable, then, that version was not using more reliable sources after all. Freemanukem (talk) 23:54, 4 February 2020 (UTC)

You’re the one saying it’s not a good source. I disagree, and I’m just pointing out that you could easily find another source if you’d like. That didn’t require the entire production section to be reduced in quality. Rusted AutoParts 23:57, 4 February 2020 (UTC)

It's not what I like! That source is not good enough for the wiki. But no, the changes weren't made because of one source, haha. They were made to improve upon the quality of the article, as covered already. Freemanukem (talk) 00:05, 5 February 2020 (UTC)

That’s the thing though. As myself and now Masem have said it’s the inferior version. It’s essentially been rollbacked to a rough draft version from a fine tuned version. Rusted AutoParts 00:07, 5 February 2020 (UTC)

I have demonstrated multiple times now that that version was not fine tuned. Whether a preferable or not (that's what we are debating), I think it's rather myopic calling it fine tuned. I don't even call my version fine tuned and I like it much better. Masem did disagree with you on colabs, and did seem to miss the unreliable casting agency ad source. Freemanukem (talk) 00:20, 5 February 2020 (UTC)

You’re getting incredibly hung up on the sources aspect, I keep saying the way everything is written is sloppy is the fundamental issue. We can add new information and swap sources but this presently written section is sloppy. Rusted AutoParts 00:24, 5 February 2020 (UTC)

This is wikipedia. It's not an opinion to have good sources! Freemanukem (talk) 00:38, 5 February 2020 (UTC)

.....That’s not in dispute, I have said countless times sources can be swapped. Rusted AutoParts 00:43, 5 February 2020 (UTC)

You’re also engaging in a lot of whataboutism. Just because you find sources you question doesn’t mean my issues with sources you added aren’t still a problem. Rusted AutoParts 00:27, 5 February 2020 (UTC)

I have said over and over it's not what I like. How did you conclude from that I engage in whataboutism is a great mystery to me. Freemanukem (talk) 00:38, 5 February 2020 (UTC)

I say Coming Soon isn’t a reliable source, you respond with “well what about this PDF?” That’s whataboutism and not addressing the concern about Coming Soon. Rusted AutoParts 00:43, 5 February 2020 (UTC)

Please check again when I brought up the PDF. I was talking to Masem. Freemanukem (talk) 00:44, 5 February 2020 (UTC)

It’s still a whataboutism when it comes to discussing sources. You can’t make a stance about one of the sources in the previous version when there’s a complaint of unreliable sources I’ve issued about your rewrite. Rusted AutoParts 00:52, 5 February 2020 (UTC)

Also the fundamental issue here isn’t the sources it’s the way everything is written. It’s sloppy and overdetailed. It no longer meets up to standard with your rewrite. Rusted AutoParts 00:01, 5 February 2020 (UTC)

I have to disagree with that. For example, I have explained why Joel Silver is worth mentioning (a very important change in terms of personnel), while, on the other hand, I believe going into detail about Penn's script isn't (because his script is not about this film). To me the other version both manages to say too little of what's important, and too much of what is not. Freemanukem (talk) 00:09, 5 February 2020 (UTC)

Silver leaving Warner Bros. isn’t necessary information because it was about the departure from the studio not this film. The film was not announced when he left anyway. We can go on and on here but it’s not seeming to go anywhere except back to where we were. Anyway, there’s 2 against 1 for the old version so I can come back in 24 hours to restore it myself if it’s not been restored prior. Rusted AutoParts 00:17, 5 February 2020 (UTC)

By that logic, then Lilly's non involvement shouldn't be noted either, because she never left the film, she just was never part of it! The argument doesn't hold up to scrutiny. Masem's assessment was before I pointed out the unreliable sources used in that version. Also, Masem did not come with a fresh perspective into this, as they had already pre-approved a version of it: User_talk:Masem#Matrix_4 Freemanukem (talk) 00:32, 5 February 2020 (UTC)

1) Lilly’s non-involvement is relevant because she directed the first three with her sister and is the first time they aren’t directing together. 2) You’re once again fussing about the sources when I have said: You. Can. Swap. Them. (With reliable sources). 3) I asked Masem’s input as they are an editor on the page it made sense to look for a third party opinion so it wasn’t just two people disagreeing and getting nowhere. I didn’t poke them to agree with me, you didn’t poke them to agree with you, Masem was simply asked their input. That doesn’t disqualify that the current WRITING quality of the production section is significantly poorer than earlier. Rusted AutoParts 00:47, 5 February 2020 (UTC)

1) This is not the first time they are not directing together. 2) Masem said the supposedly reliable sourcing was a pro. Of course I would point out that that's not the case since they missed it. 3) All I said is they didn't come with an entirely fresh perspective, nothing more than that. I think you should sleep on it (I know I am), as you make rather hyperbolic statements right now. See "rife" with unreliable sources, "fine tuned", "significantly poorer".Freemanukem (talk) 01:03, 5 February 2020 (UTC)

1) Irrelevant as even if they worked apart before, they have worked together on Matrix together. This still doesn't make the Silver info relevant. 2) One source you took issue with doesn't disqualify the other sources. 3) Whether Masem had "fresh perspective" isn't relevant, I invited them to provide input. Masem having prior experience on this page/franchise is a plus as they are aware of what's being discussed. Saying i'm being hyperbolic do not address my problems: The Coming Soon source, how you're not addressing the writing quality criticism. These things are being drowned out by you isolating the sources qualm which has been addressed already. Rusted AutoParts 01:12, 5 February 2020 (UTC)

I'm coming at this having contributed to a number of film articles and having had updated the franchise page in last couple months before this page could be created. The quality between the two versions is vastly different, though neither is perfect. Just that are points to merge from one into the other, and given the quality of Rusted's, it is better to start there and add in anything salient from Freemanukem's. --Masem (t) 00:50, 5 February 2020 (UTC)

This version is the version from the franchise page after all! Freemanukem (talk) 01:03, 5 February 2020 (UTC)

Then it could go for an overhaul then. Rusted AutoParts 01:23, 5 February 2020 (UTC)

Its been reworked a bit (and frankly when I went yesterday to trim down the section on M4 on the franchise page, I did see a lot of extra fluff in that). --Masem (t) 01:37, 5 February 2020 (UTC)

I can live with any combo, I don't claim any sort of ownership obviously. But several things will have to change in the other version, i.e. not just adding, removing too, see going too much in detail about Penn's script. Freemanukem (talk) 01:07, 5 February 2020 (UTC)

Exactly, I'm not trying to get the previous version restored because "I like it better", it's a better base to work with based on it's writing quality and how it was structured. New information (the Berlin filming, Toll's collaboration) and new sources can be inserted, but it needs to be returned to a cleaner writing quality. Rusted AutoParts 01:01, 5 February 2020 (UTC)

Misgendering

«The original Matrix trilogy was jointly written and directed by Lana and his brother, Lilly.»

his??? brother???

187.116.91.252 (talk) 04:50, 8 February 2020 (UTC)