Talk:Œ

I find "œ" written in a lot of French texts and words, even modern ones. Is "œ" still a common ligature in French?

It's not particularly common, and it's sometimes just written OE as a capital, but you can still find it, mainly before u, as in œuf egg. 68.145.207.92 00:07, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Well, it's extremely common if we consider that it is used in 100% of cases in which the letters o and e together are pronounced /œ/ or /ø/. — Chameleon 03:32, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

The pronunciation was ambiguous as to /eɪ/ vs. /ɛ/, and it isn't in the OED, so I transcribed it as I pronounce it. It would be best for someone to check. kwami (talk) 02:45, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

In handwritten and typeset French, using the ligature is mandatory where the word requires it. In typewritten and computer-written French, using separate characters has been very common (in France, at least), since standard French AZERTY keyboards did not have a dedicated key or shifted/combo key for œ/Œ (or for æ/Æ, for that matter). Some computer applications automatically substitute the ligature for separate characters where appropriate, but apart from that, separate characters have been the rule in typewritten and online copy in France. A voluntary standard for a new AZERTY computer keyboard layout that does include the œ/Œ and æ/Æ ligatures was recently adopted by the French government. If it ever comes into widespread use, we may begin to see more properly spelled French online. PCMartinSeattle (talk) 03:40, 21 August 2020 (UTC)

Πin German

"Œ is not used in German; borrowings using oe are rendered ö." Really? I see "Cœurs" and "Coeurs" in German text all the time, referring to hearts (the suit of playing cards; not "Herzen".) I am certainly not proficient in German, so I'd be interested in what a native German speaker would have to say. Incremental Improvements (talk) 14:31, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

You'll find the Œ or œ quite seldom in German texts. The only occurrences I know are in words borrowed from French. But even French words get Germanised: Friseur -> Frisör (barber) - but the use of the Germanised word is optional. I don't quite know any example for the use of œ in German texts. "Cœurs" is usually not used in daily language. —Preceding unsigned comment added by FAThomssen (talk • contribs) 13:53, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

phenix

That's preposterous to claim "phenix" is an American English variant of "phoenix." The legendary bird is spelled with a superfluous o, the Arizonan city is not an exception as "yes, you can also find "phoenix" in the US, especially in the case of Phoenix, Arizona, but that is beside the point" implies. Though, it could be said Phenix, Alabama is the exception.68.188.2.182 (talk) 03:45, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

I replaced that example with "diarrh(o)ea" which--I think--is more accurate.68.188.2.182 (talk) 03:48, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

The name "œthel"

The name "oethel" has been in this article for several years (first introduced in this edit), but I find no evidence for it outside Wikipedia. The Oxford English Dictionary does not include oethel or any variant in this sense (athel or ethel means "ancestry" or "nobility" in Old English, but was not written with œ or oe) and I can't find it in Google Scholar or Google Books (although it appears as a misprint or misscan for æthel in a few places). Similarly oegule appears in only 4 Web pages, and nowhere in Google Scholar or Books. So I have removed both names. --Macrakis (talk) 00:55, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

I have now found references to the name ethel (not œthel) in the glossaries of several recent typography books (Bringhurst et al.), but it's not clear where they're getting this. The Unicode standard under U+0153 claims that the name comes from Old English eðel = æthel, but that means 'noble' and has no connection as far as I can see to a letter name. --Macrakis (talk) 21:37, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps some supposed connection with the rune Odal? (See the section Futhorc Ethel.) But I have no idea how accurate that article is. --Zundark (talk) 22:01, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

This rune is related to the concept of ethel, family descent and inheritance, but I don't know of any connection to the œ ligature. --Macrakis (talk) 22:17, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

If the word ôþalan were umlauted in a North Germanic language, it would be spelled œðal- (where œ represents a long umlauted ō, like German öh). But umlaut is triggered by an i after the umlauted vowel, and there is no i. — Eru·tuon 03:54, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

Pronunciation

The œ, oe, or e is generally pronounced /iː/, or /ɛ/ in a few cases.

I don't know what that means. Can someone translate to English? I really think we need to start adding examples in addition to the International Phonetic Alphabet stuff; if I don't know how to use it, I bet most other people don't, either. OptimistBen (talk) 06:28, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

IPA is Wikipedia's standard for pronunciation, for many reasons. For an English-oriented introduction, see IPA chart for English. It is the only reasonable system that works for all languages (not just English phonology but Vietnamese phonology), that is taught and used internationally (which is especially important for those whose best language isn't English), and is unambiguous. It would be nice if there were a useful IPA-based phonemic system for English so that dialect variations wouldn't cause problems, but I don't think there is one....

If you want to read the (rather extensive) existing discussions on IPA in WP, take a look at Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(pronunciation); and of course you are welcome to continue the discussion there. --Macrakis (talk) 16:25, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Why couldn't you attempt an explanation of how to pronounce it? I read the guide for IPA; it is opaque. This wiki is English. It is not limited by paper. Putting an example in there (as pronounced by the "i" in [word] would not be that big of a deal. OptimistBen (talk) 16:49, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Because the purpose of Talk pages is to discuss editing the article, not to answer random questions. --Macrakis (talk) 18:25, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

The purpose of letters is ostensibly to aid in reading, but apparently we're foregoing that purpose in this case, eh? If I'm reading that correctly, then celiac and coeliac have the exact same pronunciation. It's just that coeliac is impossible to read phonetically in English. I read coeliac as "koliac", similar to the pronunciation of Frank Coe's last name. What purpose does oe serve? Also, when do we pronounce it /iː/ rather than /ɛ/? The rule surrounding that distinction should be included, as those are very different sounds. OptimistBen (talk) 18:56, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

I can't tell if you're trolling or just want to chat, but Talk pages aren't appropriate for either. --Macrakis (talk) 20:40, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Maybe the length of my last reply prevented you from seeing its relevance to this article. 1) I don't appreciate you calling me a troll. Have you never heard of good faith? 2) Two of the languages presented, Romance and IPA, have examples of how to pronounce. Romance has a good exposition on when pronunciations are different, and its distribution in the language -- the ligature is not used that often. I don't see why this would be irrelevant when we are talking about a symbol in a phonetic alphabet. OptimistBen (talk) 22:19, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

I said I "couldn't tell". Why couldn't I tell? Because you keep changing the subject. You started with a complaint about the phrasing of the article ("I don't know what that means. Can someone translate to English?"); then you complain about IPA (which, as a matter of WP policy, should be discussed on the relevant policy page); then you apparently are complaining that you don't like the spelling "oe" because it "doesn't aid in reading" (WP is not here to reform English spelling); then you ask about when it's /iː/ rather than /ɛ/.

This last point actually fits in to the purpose of a talk page, so.... I suspect that to the extent there's any pattern at all, it's the same as a plain 'e'. We have /iː/ in foetus, diarrhoea, subpoena, coenobite, homoeopathic, oenology, oesophagus (UK), oestrus (UK), oedema (UK), sometimes reduced to /ɪ/ when unaccented: oedema (UK); /ɛ/ in foetid, phloem, oestrus (US/UK), foederal (rare since 1800); reduced to /ə/ in accented position: oesophagus (US), oedema (US); then of course there are French borrowings like oeuvre.... I don't see a clear pattern; do you? --Macrakis (talk) 14:35, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

ISO8859-1 history

I've added personal recollections of how the character was removed from ISO8859-1 to Talk:ISO/IEC 8859. I can assert that the French committee members insisted that it be removed; it wasn't a case of neglect. David Brooks (talk) 05:39, 20 May 2012 (UTC)

Input method

Does Alt Gr + X really work in US international? There is no Alt Gr + X combination on this image http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keyboard_layout#US-International I have never seen a Win 7 PC where Alt Gr + X would work. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.14.191.73 (talk) 20:25, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

Oe - capital O, minor e

Does the combination exist: capital O connected with a minor e? Thanks, --143.245.6.110 (talk) 13:07, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

In French, it is a rare typographical variant of Œ. I don’t know about other languages. Palpalpalpal (talk) 19:21, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

mœur?

What's up with the word "mœur"? It's not in the French dictionary I have, nor does the translation "mores" make sense in English.186.106.123.94 (talk) 17:00, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

The singular form does not exist in French, only the plural, mœurs. I’ve corrected this in the article. For the meaning of mores in English, see for instance here. Palpalpalpal (talk) 19:24, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

We?

I noticed that the Modern English section uses the term "we", I'm unsure if this is correct. 198.189.140.18 (talk) 13:46, 14 September 2017 (UTC) anon 2017 sept 14

• Agreed, I'll change the wording so it's more neutral. 2WR1 (talk) 21:59, 4 May 2019 (UTC)

Inputting Œ and œ

On Microsoft Windows, Œ and œ can be entered using the Alt codes 0140 and 0156, i.e. by holding down the Alt key while typing the number 0140 for Œ and 0156 for œ respectively on the numeric keypad. In Microsoft Word, œ can additionally be entered using the keyboard shortcut Ctrl+⇧ Shift+& then O in quick succession. Moreover, Microsoft Word and some other word processors can also automatically correct French words like soeur to sœur, but in most other applications (e.g. an instant messenger, or a browser) the word will not be corrected.

Using Apple's macOS, starting from Mac OS X Lion, Œ and œ can be accessed by holding down O (⇧ Shift+O) or o (O) and clicking on Œ and œ respectively in the small menu that appears. Alternatively the Character Viewer can be used to enter special characters. Furthermore, using either the U.S., British, or Swiss keyboard layout, Œ and œ are accessed by pressing ⌥ Opt+⇧ Shift+Q and ⌥ Opt+Q respectively. The corresponding key combinations on the French keyboard are ⌥ Opt+⇧ Shift+O and ⌥ Opt+O, or ⌥ Opt+⇧ Shift+Ö and ⌥ Opt+Ö on the German keyboard.

On mobile devices running iOS, Android or Windows Mobile, œ and Œ are accessed by holding down O until a small menu is displayed.

With a Compose key the key combination for œ is Compose O E and Compose ⇧ Shift+O ⇧ Shift+E for Œ.

In Vim (text editor), use Ctrl+K ⇧ Shift+O ⇧ Shift+E in succession (or Ctrl+K O E for lower-case).

The LaTeX commands are \oe and \OE .

Since Wikipedia is not a manual or how-to guide, I've removed the above text. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 08:55, 4 March 2018 (UTC)

Austrian name confusion

In the Other Germanic languages section there is a line that says "In Österreich/Oesterreich (Austria), the œ is pronounced Ëhr." This does not make any sense, the name of the country is spelt Österreich and so doesn't contain a 'œ'. Also 'Ëhr' doesn't mean anything, that is not the way anything is spelt in German, I have no idea what that is supposed to mean. I think this line should be removed, just wanted to see what other people think. 2WR1 (talk) 21:58, 4 May 2019 (UTC)

Agreed. Removed. ---Sluzzelin talk 22:04, 4 May 2019 (UTC)

Minor editing mistake

Do a search for this: The words involved include. These recent borrowings from French include manœuvre, hors d'œuvre, œuvre, and œil de bœuf The first sentence is incomplete and there's no period after the second. I'm guessing someone began to compose or edit it and was interrupted. I'll leave it to that person (or the article's primary author) to fix it. PCMartinSeattle (talk) 03:40, 21 August 2020 (UTC)