User talk:Raspor

Hello Raspor! Welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. If you decide that you need help, check out Getting Help below, ask me on my talk page, or place {{helpme}} on your talk page and someone will show up shortly to answer your questions. Please remember to sign your name on talk pages by clicking or using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically produce your name and the date. Finally, please do your best to always fill in the edit summary field. Below are some useful links to facilitate your involvement. Happy editing! dave souza, talk 19:21, 29 December 2006 (UTC) Getting Started Wikipedia Tutorial • The five pillars of Wikipedia How to: edit a page • upload an image Getting Help Frequently Asked Questions Where to ask questions or make comments Request administrator attention Policies and Guidelines Neutral point of view • Reliable sources Verifiability • Citing sources • No original research What Wikipedia is not • Biographies of living persons Manual of Style • Three-revert rule • Sock puppetry Copyrights • Fair use • Image use policy External links • Spam • Vandalism Deletion policy • Conflict of interest • Notability The Community Build consensus • Resolving disputes Assume good faith • Civility • Etiquette No personal attacks • No legal threats Community Portal • Village pump Signpost • IRC channels • Mailing lists Things to do Be bold in editing • Help develop an article Pages needing attention • Peer review Join a WikiProject • Translating articles Cleaning up: General • Spam • Vandalism Miscellaneous Categories • Disambiguity • Stubs User pages • Talk pages Useful templates • Tools • User scripts

Deleted page "Gravelles"

Hi. A page you created, Gravelles, has been deleted in accordance with our deletion policy.

Wikipedia has certain standards for inclusion that all articles must meet. Certain types of article must establish the notability of their subject by asserting its importance or significance. Additionally, since Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, content inappropriate for an encyclopedia, or content that would be more suited to somewhere else (such as a directory or social networking website) is not acceptable. See Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not for the relevant policy.

You are welcome to contribute content which complies with our content policies and any applicable notability guidelines. However, please do not simply re-create the page with the same content; it will be deleted again and may be protected from re-creation. You may also wish to read our introduction to editing and guide to writing your first article. If you have any questions, please contact an administrator for assistance. Thank you – Gurch 18:22, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

WP: NEO

I would invite you to read WP:NEO in regards to your creation of the Caged Kids article. Thanks RichMac (Talk) 13:03, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

from user raspor to a WP admin (User:Vaoverland)

I am just starting on this. I am trying to get the jist of how it all works. I did a short article called 'Gravelles' and it was immediately deleted. Well everything I have done so far has been deleted without any explanation. I chose your name at random just to get started somewhere. thanks

• • Did you read the message on this page? User talk:Raspor. Apparently, the Gravelles article you wrote was thought not to meet WP criteria. I would suggest working on the editing of existing articles first before creating new ones, and see how your work survives (or doesn't). You should also consider contacting the Wikipedian who deleted your Gravelles article at this link User talk:Gurch and ask for details about why and request guidance. Despite your frustration, I hope you will do that respectfully and thereby get some non-emotional specific answers I cannot provide. I can see that your Caged Kids article was deleted by yet another Wikipedian, and since that action by more than 1 of us rarely happens to good articles, it is likely that you do need some advice to succeed. Good luck. It is always OK to contact me. Vaoverland 13:09, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Hi. Sorry for the delay. As I said in my original message, Wikipedia has certain standards for inclusion that all articles must meet, and we can't accept articles about just anyone. You claim your article was deleted "without any explanation"... this isn't really true, if you read my message again you will find links to several guideline and policy pages that give you an idea of what you should be aiming for. The most relevant page in this case is the page about notability for biographical articles. If your article is about a person or group of people it needs to say clearly why they are important or significant. This is done mainly to stop people writing articles about themselves or their family. If the person or people in question are living, then additional guidelines apply, mainly for legal reasons. Essentially, your article failed to meet these standards. You are of course welcome to create a more extensive article that provides an assertion of notability and otherwise meets the guidelines. Thanks – Gurch 00:27, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Re: Not Accurate

Raspor wrote:

"Given that psychotherapy is restricted to conversations, practitioners do not have to be medically qualified,"

I am new here and told to be 'bold' but I am afraid to change this even tho i am positive it is not accurate. there are many types of 'psychotherapy' that go beyond conversation: attachment therapy, biofeedback, and the eye movement therapy. should I be 'bold'and change this or will that be considered vandalism.

gurch

i put this under the psychotherapy discussion. i want to change it but i dont want to be accused of vandalism. what should i do?

Hi, the best thing to do is add a comment to the discussion page of the appropriate article and after a while, if nobody objects, change the article (remembering to leave an informative edit summary). If anyone objects at that stage, suggest that they also explain their opinion on the discussion page. Hope this helps – Gurch 01:31, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

By the way, assuming you are referring to this edit, it was not me that removed your edit but JoeSmack; you may wish to bring the matter up with him. The only edit I made was this one, after an anonymous user removed the entire references section and the list of related topics without explanation – Gurch 01:35, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Also in 1996 Dr. Tana Dineen published "Manufacturing Victims" in which she suggests that much of the 'psychotherapy industry' is more interested in financial gain than helping clients. She demonstrates that psychotherapy rarely does more than what the placebo effect, passage of time, and working things out on your own accomplishes.

Considering the very high cost of psychotherapy and the fact that most heath insurances are required by law to provide it seems to indicate that the economic value of psychotherapy is in question. Since health insurance costs are forcing many to be unable to afford it, indicates it might be time to review the lucrative incomes of some psychotherapists who have such insurance funds easily available. At least allowing people to opt out of the mandatory psychotherapy insurance requirements might help to lower health insurance costs without major harm to the mental health of most.

I reverted your changes not because I considered them vandalism, there should be no concern about that. However, your added content (shown above) raised my eyebrows enough to revert it for a couple of reasons. Firstly, it does not properly source its statements. Saying 'demonstrates that psychotherapy rarely does more than what the placebo effect, passage of time, and working things out on your own accomplishes' you really do need some reliable source information; more than just a phd 1996 book. I mean, she could be a crank too so multiple sources would be best. See WP:CITE and Wikipedia:Reliable sources for getting this done, it'll help a lot in clearing that up. Secondly, especially the second paragraph, sounds very point-of-view (as opposed to NPOV). This means it isn't neutral: I'd imagine psychotherapy isn't expensive in countries where they have universal health care. Claiming that 'health care companies are forcing many who are unable to afford it' isn't verifiable, as well as being POV. See WP:NPOV for more info on this; it is a pillar that Wikipedia was founded on (See Wikipedia:Five pillars for others) and is important for a non-biased encyclopedia.

I hope I have helped clear things up, and I don't mean to just throw policies at you: I just want you to know why I reverted your edits. If you have any questions at all, pertaining to this issue or any other, please, feel free to drop me a line on my talk page. Cheers. JoeSmack ^Talk 16:52, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Your credibility as a wiki editor

You said (in very strong terms) "Harun Yahya is a forceful, popular proponent of ID"

Yahya himself wrote "Intelligent Design Accounts Could Harm Individuals Sincerely Inclined toward Religion...Intelligent Design Is Another of Satan's Distractions" [1]

This is yet another reason why you have no credibility as an editor of the intelligent design article. Mr Christopher 19:17, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Hi!

Hello, I've added a welcome to the top of your page. There's a lot of information there about how to get results in contributing to Wikipedia, and I'd particularly recommend reading Wikipedia:Verifiability and Wikipedia:No original research as soon as you can: you may feel you know something, but all facts and opinions here have to be properly attributed to a reliable source, as well as being properly balanced in terms of WP:NPOV. We're all learning here, and I'll be glad to help with any questions you have. Look forward to your future contributions, .. dave souza, talk 19:21, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Mediation Cabal

Raspor, I've tried my best to stay neutral on this dispute and to be helpful to the newbies. The fact is, I don't see you as "an innocent victim", but I also disagree with some of the actions on "the other side" as well. Anyway, I think the best option for you right now is to look into the Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal. These guys are experienced in helping editors work together and helping newbies learn the ropes.-Psychohistorian 17:11, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

capitalization suggestion from humps

Are you aware that sentences traditionally begin with a capital letter? Humps 20:48, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

3revert rule

Please read three revert rule before you get yourself banned from the intelligent design article. Mr Christopher 21:20, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

you have accused me of vandalism and have told me that if i revert one more time i will be banned

i believe both of these statements are untrue.

seems you are just threatening me so your biase POV will remain

explain your statements. they seem untruthfull to me

raspor

3RR

Your recent editing history shows that you are currently engaged in an edit war; that means that you are repeatedly changing content back to how you think it should be, when you have seen that other editors disagree. To resolve the content dispute, please do not revert or change the edits of others when you are reverted. Instead of reverting, please use the talk page to work toward making a version that represents consensus among editors. The best practice at this stage is to discuss, not edit-war; read about how this is done. If discussions reach an impasse, you can then post a request for help at a relevant noticeboard or seek dispute resolution. In some cases, you may wish to request temporary page protection.

Being involved in an edit war can result in you being blocked from editing—especially if you violate the three-revert rule, which states that an editor must not perform more than three reverts on a single page within a 24-hour period. Undoing another editor's work—whether in whole or in part, whether involving the same or different material each time—counts as a revert. Also keep in mind that while violating the three-revert rule often leads to a block, you can still be blocked for edit warring—even if you do not violate the three-revert rule—should your behavior indicate that you intend to continue reverting repeatedly. Humps 21:41, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

I think enough is enough. He's been warned on several occasions about WP:3RR and continues to violate it. I have filed a report, since he made 5 reverts to the same thing. He needs to discuss it first, and he refuses. time to go. Orangemarlin 22:16, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

I spent hours discussing it. I did not make reverts I made addtions. I was unjustly accused of vandalism. I was libeled. The addtions I made were cited. You just did not like them.

Good. I look forward to a trial.

raspor 22:23, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Your trial, sir, is here:- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/3RR#User:Raspor_reported_by_User:Orangemarlin_.28Result:.29 Humps 22:37, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

User notice: temporary 3RR block

Regarding reversions[2] made on January 1 2007 to Intelligent design

You have been temporarily blocked for violation of the three-revert rule. Please feel free to return after the block expires, but also please make an effort to discuss your changes further in the future.

The duration of the block is 24 hours. William M. Connolley 23:11, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

The reversion trial

Well, obviously there was not one. I did not have a chance to state my case.

I have mistreated since I started posting here. I made a change to an article and was falsely accused of vandalism. I added one sentence and it was reverted immediately which was against the guidelines.

And now I have been unfairly blocked. This just seems like a game where the bullies rule. I was told discuss what I wanted to change and I was told that it all has been discussed and you are wrong.

The Intelligent Design article is biased. I could go on and on about the one sidedness of it but one but cleary exemplifies this.

There was a sentence that stated that '10% of the US accepts Intelligent Design' It was cited. I looked at the cite and found it also stated that 3 times as many college grads accept ID as high school grads.

The article has overall has implied that ID is something that uneducated unscientific people believe. I added that comment and it was repeatedly deleted because it was 'irrelevant'.

I think there is a need for the some representation of the minority position in that article. Right now is is simplly a bash of the concept of Intelligent Design. I have used wiki as a reference many times and found it to be accurate, thorough and balanced. Until this and a couple of other articles.

This is a shameful example of how a group can hijack an article and ruin the wonderful balance wiki in general shows.

This is truly a disappointment to me to see how an article can be taken over by what appears to be thugs.

You are not being blocked for content; you are being blocked for breaking WP:3RR. You aren't allowed to break 3RR even if you are correct William M. Connolley 12:00, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

I dont see how I 'reverted' that many times. Are you saying I am not allowed to edit an article more that 3 times. Every change I made was deleted. So I can deleted others changes and then when they restore it claim that they are reverting??

And why is it that those that attacked me are not blocked for calling me a troll, ignorant, and libeling me by calling me a 'vandal'? why have they not been blocked??

raspor 12:06, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

If you don't think you have 4R, then I suggest that you examine your sedits more closely, and read WP:REVERT carefully. Better still, read WP:1R carefully. If every change you make is deleted, you need to get agreement on the talk page - you cannot force these things in against opposition.

As for troll, etc: blocking for this is uncommon, unless very blatant. Its a judgement matter, unlike your 3RR, which is rather more direct William M. Connolley 12:21, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

how about being accused of vandalism??

so i can call people trolls and call them vandals with impunity?

raspor 12:54, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Nope, and if you're going to be silly I'm not going to bother to continue. Some people *are* trolls. Calling them such is fair. Some people *are* vandals. So calling someone a vandal is not automatically an offence. Breaking 3RR is (except...) William M. Connolley 14:06, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

I am not being silly. I was called a troll and a vandal. Is that OK?

raspor 14:19, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

• If you are trolling and vandalising? Yes. Your editing has been highly disruptive. I strongly advise you to improve your civility and the evidential basis for your edits as a matter of some urgency. Guy (Help!) 19:00, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Polling Data

"I'm not sure that throwing polling data back and forth between the Evolution side and the Creation myth side does any good. Facts aren't proven by polls, they just show how uneducated and silly people can be. I forgot the exact numbers, but a substantial number of Americans believe they've been abducted by aliens. So, in the UFO article (and I'm going to check if that's considered pseudoscience, because if I'm going to stand on principle with Noah's Ark and ID, I'm going to do the same with Divining Rods and UFO's), does it qualify as NPOV information to state that in some Gallup Poll or something, 60% of Americans believe in Aliens? That just shows that 60% of Americans need to have their heads examined by a qualified psychotherapist. I don't care how many people believe in ID, it is pseudoscience, it is myth, and it is religion, but it is not factual and it is not science. If Raspor or whatever Mr. 3RR added to the revert war, I don't think Polling data belongs in an encylopedic article. Unless you're going to state how gullible some number of people are to mythology. I might buy that. Orangemarlin 04:05, 2 January 2007 (UTC)"

unbelievable. I get blocked for taking out poll data comments and here orange says he is against it yet i was blocked for deleting it. Then when I added comments from the same cite those were deleted.

obvious, obvious bias

You were blocked for violating 3rr. An obvious, obvious policy. You were warned two times here on your talk page about viloating 3rr prior to getting the 24hr block. You ignored those warnings and continued to violate 3rr and were therefore blocked. Using your talk page to rally against Wikipedia and misrepresent the reasons for your 24 hour block are in violation of Wikipedia:User_page#What_can_I_not_have_on_my_user_page.3FMr Christopher 15:31, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm going to try to be nice here. I am opposed to having polling data included in any article, even when it supports my POV on an article, because polling is POV. That being said, I rarely make changes without having a discussion about it first, and that's what I'm doing. I'm engaging in finding a consensus on this issue. Yes, I agree with you on polls, but I still don't agree with how you treat others, treat Wikipedia and your philosophy. The first two is causing you problems, the last one is a point of discussion that is part of Wikipedia. The first two is preventing you from being effective on the last part. Orangemarlin 17:58, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

i found out that nice doesnt work here. thats how i started and was called a troll and vandal cuz i changed an article in good faith just as you did. i really didnt understand the 3R rule. i thought you could not revert and i edited.

i have been mistreated and am just shoot the crap back that i get. there is a mob mentality here. i tried for days to get just consideration and didnt get it. i was just called stupid and ignorant.

the mob here only knows force. they rule by intimidation and false accusations to discredit people.

i was unjustly called a vandal. i was told that they can do that with impunity.

i am new here and was treated like crap. no breaks no compromise. just this bitter attitude.

yes the poll comment was stupid. it was cherry picked. much info here is cherry picked.

look at britanica they are objective. this seems like a bunch of college students with a lot of time just goofing off.

raspor 18:07, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

whale fossils:

"why waste time looking for whale fossils. how has that helped us?" - What a curious statement! Are you, perhaps, unaware that the transitional fossils for the evolution of whales from land animals WERE actually found? Indeed, this is a good example of the predictive power of evolution: we didn't have many of these fossils for a long time, but evolution predicted their existence, and they were eventually found. The same applies to Tiktaalik: there was a gap in the transitional sequence for the evolution of land animals from fish, so scientists went hunting in rocks of the right age, and the gap was filled. Or was this intended as a general attack on scientific enquiry, like "why waste time looking for black holes or the Higgs boson, how has that helped us?" --Robert Stevens 12:14, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

the point is that the fossil evidence for whale evolution is a few bones. all up to interpretation.

Well that's not true is it? There is a plethora of fossilized whale bones. Not a few. Over the past 20 years scientists have been unravelling the evolution of the whale in some detail (remember that there are not enough scientists and funding to do all evolutionary trees for all organisms so there are going to be knowledge gaps due to these constraints at times). Evidence also comes from:

• embryology
• comparative anatomy
• intermediate fossil records (you probably think there are none judging you my your own statements - A simple and clear web site to help enlighten you is at [3])
• comparative evolutionary traits
• comparative biochemistry (of extant whales)
• landlocked whale skeleton recoveries (up to 10 000 years old)
• vestigal remnants
• oxygen isotope evidence

There is more but I fear having to explain comparative evolutionary predictions based on similar environmental changes to you.

"all (sic) up to interpretation"? Weasley words my friend. Candy 13:47, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

and if we are looking for pure science without practical application why is ID criticized for not have practical applications. cant have it both ways

raspor 12:19, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

mob rule

Raspor now has 24 hours to reflect on the importance of 3RR, but I think he was referring to the table "SUMMARY OF KEY QUESTIONS ABOUT HUMAN EVOLUTION– BY EDUCATION" which shows ID support rising from 6% at HS or less to 15% College Grad and 17% Post Grad. Unfortunately enthusiasm for making a point seems to have overcome care with arithmetic or balanced description. Oddly enough, considering the much touted claim that ID includes creationism, Belief in creationism is shown as declining from 73% to 42% as educational attainment increases. .. dave souza, talk 23:38, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

yes that was my point. we can select positive and negative data from a survey. the darwinists here chose the negative with out showing the other side:

BIAS!!!

yes i am reflecting also on how mob rule works also too raspor 12:28, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Psycho's rap sheet:

sorry psycho. i can see you have some balls and integrity!

encyclopedia britannica

just read their def of 'intelligent design' very balanced, fair, informative.

not just a bashing of the idea by people who are against it

wiki in this case is a failure

i hope people will realize wiki is not a real encyclopedia. there should be a disclaimer somewhere

i thought it was serious for along time. people use this as a source.

compare brits to wiki's on ID

what a joke wikis is

should warn people that its just a bunch what seems to me to be college student with time on their hands spouting off.

nothing can be taken seriously here

GO PSYCHO!

really i am with you on your edits. you are showing some integrity.

you are being objective. good going! really!

do you think you can get away with being unbiased in this article?

raspor 17:27, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

the old 'God did it' excuse

Scott explains, "Once you allow yourself to say God did it, you stop looking for naturalistic explanations. If you stop looking, you won't find them

yep that sure stopped newton, pascal, pasteur, etc. etc. etc.

what a lame argument.

most of our science came from guys who thought 'God did it'

raspor 17:31, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

But you will notice that the only science that survived of theirs was the naturalistic science, not the deistic science or attempts they made. What does that tell you?--Filll 00:36, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Psycho! I was wrong about you

I will erase you rap sheet. You have some balls.

Yes the point is to be accurate. It does not take a lot of brains to see how fugdet this ID article is.

remember the animal house movie: "bob job" cough::"bob job" cough::"bob job" cough::

the bias stinks like a 5 day old fish wrapped in newspaper out in the august sun for 3 days

felon doesnt think people can see it?

if you present a cleaner case pro-IDers will be more likey to be more objective also

we should stop the bob-job here

raspor 18:20, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Psycho, hold on till I get out of the 'hole'

I will help you.

I am for accuracy, truth and non-bias. Even if it helps my oppostion.

Hang in there you are showing some tuff stuff.

(Actually I am suprised finding a Darwinist that has some gonads)

raspor 18:30, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Psycho, FellatioMonk is bluffing

hang tuff!

I only have about 20 more hours in the hole

raspor 18:37, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Care to explain how your section title above contributes positively to the project, is not a personal attack and not disruptive? FeloniousMonk 00:49, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

i would like proper decorum here. i am trying to figure out how to get it

was it OK for me to be called a vandal??

this seems like a big bob job. all the requests for input by pro-IDers has been ignored

an article on ID completely written by anti-IDers: a bob job

raspor 01:15, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Right... Care to explain to us how your use of "FellatioMonk" in your section title above contributes to "proper decorum"? Anyone who makes comments with intentional slurs like "FellatioMonk" instead of FeloniousMonk is apt to be viewed a vandal and a troll, so no sympathy here for your situation. You've gotten better than you've given (or deserved) at Wikipedia, Raspor. FeloniousMonk 01:27, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

No personal attacks

Hello, I'm [[User:{{subst:REVISIONUSER}}|{{subst:REVISIONUSER}}]]. I noticed that you made a comment that didn't seem very civil, so it may have been removed. Wikipedia is built on collaboration, so it's one of our core principles to interact with one another in a polite and respectful manner. If you have any questions, you can leave me a message on [[User_talk:{{subst:REVISIONUSER}}|my talk page]]. Thank you. Humps 23:20, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

yes i am against personal attacks also. i have been called many names

someone called me a vandal. do you think that was ok?

i talked to wiki about it and they said they could do nothing

raspor 00:07, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

User conduct RFC

Your actions are the subject of a user conduct request for comment: Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Raspor You can give any justifications for your actions there. FeloniousMonk 00:48, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

i dont know what you want. i have been attack continuously by many of your group. but that does not seems to bother anyone

raspor 00:52, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Well, stopping stunts like this would be a good start. Learning our policies and abiding by them would be another. FeloniousMonk 00:57, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

i talked to someone and they said it was ok to be a little sarcastic. i complained about being called a vandal

look felon,

was it ok for one of your mob to call me a vandal???

raspor 01:01, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Based on contributions like this, yes. If you still don't see it, read WP:SPADE. FeloniousMonk 01:29, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Moved from Talk:Intelligent design

Mob rule by Franklin

According to our Founding Fathers, democracies were as dangerous as any form of government. Benjamin Franklin defined democracy as “three wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch,” and explained that true liberty is “a well-armed lamb contesting the vote.” In sum, any rule of man system, whether mob rule or rule by the elites, is destined for failure.

IF YOU ANTI-IDERS ARE NOT WILLING TO LET THERE BE SOME SORT OF INPUT BY THE PRO-IDERS THEN THIS ABOVE CONCEPT TRULY APPLIES HERE

• Corrected formatting. Justin Eiler 01:28, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

This is the last time I'm responding to you, because one of the sure signs of insanity is repeating oneself over and over in the expectation of a different result. I really don't expect a different result, I don't think I'm insane, but this is definitely the last shot. First of all, describing us as a mob is insulting and demeaning. This is not anarchy, but it is not a democracy. Not all information has equal weight. For example, just because 20% of Americans think that the moon landing was faked does not mean that 20% of the moon landing article deserves attention to these people. A brief mention in the humor section might suffice. By court ruling, by the process of science, and by verifiable research, Intelligent Design is a religion, not science. I'm not going to go into the full details of what defines a religion, but belief in a supernatural being is fundamental to that definition. If someone wants to rewrite this article as the Church of ID, I'm fine with it. But it is pseudoscience by definition and by fact, and any attempt to state otherwise is rather silly. That is not a mob decision, that is what defines Wikipedia--make it encyclopedic, make it verifiable, don't use opinion, etc. etc. etc. You will serve yourself better by writing a cogent, grammatically correct, and verifiable section of the article; post that section to the discussion section; and finally unemotionally discuss it everyone else. You have not even attempted to be logical, unemotional, nice, and logical. So this is it Raspor. You can try to be civil and logical, or you can continue to call us names. Your choice at this point. Orangemarlin 17:41, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Mob rule by Franklin

According to our Founding Fathers, democracies were as dangerous as any form of government. Benjamin Franklin defined democracy as “three wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch,” and explained that true liberty is “a well-armed lamb contesting the vote.” In sum, any rule of man system, whether mob rule or rule by the elites, is destined for failure.

IF YOU ANTI-IDERS ARE NOT WILLING TO LET THERE BE SOME SORT OF INPUT BY THE PRO-IDERS THEN THIS ABOVE CONCEPT TRULY APPLIES HERE

MOB RULE— Preceding unsigned comment added by raspor (talk • contribs)

Raspor, how many times Do you have to be invited to write something? Or are you just a troll and nothing else?--Filll 01:32, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Look i went thru the procedure as stated in the rules. i was polite. i was submissive. i brought up my ideas on the talk page. i wrote a sentence. very innocuous and it was deleted immediately and i was called a vandal.

yes i love that quote about the lambs and wolves voting for dinner

if your mob has any sense of fairness it will allow some input by pro-IDers. jeez after all the article is about ID. cant those who support it have just a teensy weensy say it what the artilce says

this is how good law making works and this is how good article making should work. not dictatorship thru numbers.

the minority should be represented. how can an article on ID be written objectively by people who hate it?

the opposition has used procedural tricks on me since day. no real effort to get me involved. so i see this as a no compromise situation. winner takes all. very unamerican. more nazi or communist

raspor 01:41, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

What would you say your imput has been? Initially, all you did was suggest that the article wasn't comprehensive enough, an issue which we addressed by explaining that the article deals only with intelligent design as defined by the Discovery Institute. Since then, what input have you tried to offer? What useful input have we rejected? -- Ec5618 01:51, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

well like a big dummy i actually presented my ideas in the talk section where i was told how stupid i was. then i looked thru the archives and saw many before me had wanted the same changes

so then i figure you just have to change it. i made a change in good faith and was called a vandal presumably because it was not acceptable by the ruling regime here.

so then i realized this is all a bob job. its an article on ID completely written by those who hate it. how objective is that. its a bob job. i dont see it any other way

and fellatio knows that

raspor 02:02, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

To be fair, you were 'stupid', in that you didn't know a lot of things that had already been discussed, or which were assumed to be basic background knowledge. You were given links to specific discussions in the archives, but you seem to have ignored them. What more could you expect of us?

I honestly don't understand half of what you're trying to say here. Perhaps therein lies part of the problem. "fellation knows what"? "bob job"? Please. -- Ec5618 02:21, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

no the point is that no matter now much logic is presented to the anti-IDers it is ignored. they have hijacked this article. no input from pro-IDers on ID will be allowed. it is mob rule in it most obvious form. reasoning is useless. they use insult tactics and get upset if anyone returns their impolities in kind. they have brought this down to a a might makes right situation

it is a wiki failure

raspor 12:10, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm sure several other editors feel the same way about you. Logic washes off of you. Now, I'll ask again, what input have you tried to offer? What useful input have we rejected? And please, answer the question without using the word bob-job, as I honestly have no clue what it is supposed to mean. -- Ec5618 12:26, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

i wrote a paragraph and put it here or under ID talk. its gone.

OK i have asked this question a dozen times and no anti-IDer has answered. was it OK to call me a vandal?

the anti-IDers here have a big agenda. anti-DI. they have linked ID with DI and that is illogical since ID has been around for thousands of years. this article is being used to promote anti-DI hate. where is the coolness. look at the beginning of the ID article. you might as well call it: 'Evil ID exposed' really isnt that a better title?

raspor 12:31, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Please see Talk:Intelligent design/Raspor's and adlac's objections#Raspor's first draft proposed article lead. Your contributions were obviously dominating the main talk page, so your comments were moved so that you could take your time to work on them.

As for the section you proposed, many of us have tried to explain a simple concept to you, and you obviously still fail to understand it: This article deals with the concept of intelligent design as propounded by the Discovery Institute, nothing more. A separate article deals with the political movement behind the concept of intelligent design as propounded by the Discovery Institute. All other concepts of teleology are covered in the article on teleology. How is this not clear? How is it not clear that the introduction you propose does not cover the article? -- Ec5618 12:48, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

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mr. christopher. first of all you called me a vandal. can you explain why?

raspor 15:50, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

This merely indicates rudeness rather than a proper willingness to explain your obscure remarks. You will get on much better if you comply carefully with WP:CIVIL .. dave souza, talk 15:59, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

asking why someone accused of vandalism is rude on my part? wow!

raspor 16:03, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

• Have you red WP:VAND to see what constitutes vandalism in Wikipedia? Inserting - and edit warring over - biased content is a valid use of the term. Guy (Help!) 19:02, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

i think you better read it. changing an article is not vandalism.

your full of it

raspor 19:15, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

astrology is not science??? why??

raspor 00:01, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

No. Scientific theories must be falsifiable, not falsified. Astrology was never a scientific theory. Would you please read scientific method and astrology. -- Ec5618 00:08, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Ok, just answer me.

According to your understanding, is astrology falisfiable? Has it been falsifed?

raspor 00:40, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

raspor, note that scientific method and astrology are both in blue colors. That means they are hyperlinks to articles here of the same name. Please click on one and read the article(s). Mr Christopher 00:48, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Yes it has. Astrology is false, not falsifiable. Nor does it match any of the other elements of the scientific method.

Please do me the kindness of assuming for a moment that I know what I'm talking about. And I have taken the liberty of formatting your post. -- Ec5618 00:53, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

is astrology falisfiable?

raspor 00:52, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

NO. A hundred times, NO. -- Ec5618 00:53, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

can we run a test on astrology to see if what it predicts is true?

raspor 01:00, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Actually, even testing would be difficult, as there seem to be wildly differing views on the interpretation of cosmic events. However, given that scientists have already tried to test astrology, and given that astrology failed those tests, we can again conclude that astrology is not scientific.

Considering that it already failed to be falsifiable, that hardly matters though. We already knew that astrology is not scientific. -- Ec5618 01:14, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

you are on another planet here.

astrology makes very measurable predictions go to the wiki page on it

"The Mars effect is a claim that Mars occupies certain positions in the sky more often at the birth of sports champions than at the birth of ordinary people"

this is a falsifiable hypothesis. it has been tested.

astrology is a scientific theory that is not supported by evidence.

the theory that depression was caused by excess bile was a scientific theory. too bad no evidence supported it.

the multiverse theory is not a scientific theory

CAN YOU TELL ME WHY??

raspor 01:23, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

are you saying that the positions of the heavenly bodies do not influence our lives??

raspor 01:35, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

It has not only been tested, it has been proven to be false. Nothing can be a scientific theory, while proven to be false. False, false, false. I repeat, astrology is not a scientific theory, because it is false. False, false.

The effects of heavenly bodies on human phychology are negligible, yes. Please consider taking a course in basic scientific thought. -- Ec5618 01:39, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

hmmm....

seems to me the body is very attuned the heavenly bodies. have you heard of the circadian rythmn? mensrtal periods? puberty at 14 years. adulthood at 21. isnt when you wake up in the morning determined by a heavenly body?

please consider studying science a lot harder

well parts of astrology have been prove to be true. most have not.

evolution has never been proven. sorry

look up what makes a scientific theory. it does not have to be valid to be scientific.

you need to study harder

raspor 01:46, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Good god man, how dare you suggest that the circadian rhythm is astrology? How dare you suggest that menstral periods are tied in to the motion of the Moon. How dare you suggest that age universally defines adulthood.

Please say something to convince me that you understand any of these concepts: science/astrology/English/evolution/intelligent design/teleology. So far, you have failed to make a single point that suggests you know anything we haven't had to explain to you, and very few points that suggest you have learned anything since coming here. -- Ec5618 01:55, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

think a second. astrology says that the heavenly bodies influence human behavior.

now it is correct on some points. obvious much could be correlational. but if you read the description of science there are two schools on whether correlational stats can be used.

and yes the sun influences human behavior there is no doubt about that. saturn: not causal perhaps correlationally

i think you are the one that needs to learn. darwinism is not falsifiable. go ahead show me.

sorry. did you take any college courses? i taught college. seemed like the kids were smarter 20 years ago. education is not the same anymore.

are not tides influenced by the position of the moon. you have heard of tides right? you know the moon affects them right? kids dont learn this stuff now?

seem like you can rotely learn but when you have to apply concepts you have trouble.

thats the hardest thing to teach. memorization and regurgitation is easy

raspor 02:08, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

The tide is not astrology. Again, how dare you suggest that the circadian rhythm is astrology? How dare you suggest that menstral periods are tied in to the motion of the Moon. How dare you suggest that age universally defines adulthood.

Must I really repeat myself so often? Astrology is not what you believe it to be, nor are intelligent design and the scientific method. Stop making an arse of yourself. Astrology is not science, damnit. It isn't falsifiable. -- Ec5618 02:13, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

The reason astrology is not falsifiable is that even when you show it is wrong, people still believe it fervently. So it doesnt matter if you still believe even when it is shown to be incorrect. That means, astrology is not falsifiable. And I refuse to believe you ever taught college.--Filll 02:15, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Wow!! That shows a complete misunderstanding of the term 'falsify'

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falsify (an excellent article)

"Falsifiable does not mean false. For a proposition to be falsifiable, it must be possible in principle to make an observation that would show that the proposition was false, even if that observation is not actually made."

study much, much harder.

I can see what I am dealing with here. And people all over the world are relying on your expertise.

Read that definition over and over and over and over till you get it.

Astrology is falisifiable. It has been falsified. It is a scientific theory that has been invalidated.

Geocentrism is falisifiable. It has been falsified. It is a scientific theory that has been invalidated.

Heliocentrism is falisifiable. It has not been falsified. It is a scientific theory that has been validated.

Darwinism is not falsifiable. It is not a scientific theory. It is a philosophy.

Really I must ask every Darwinist here if Astrology is falsifiable. It they all say no they have no right to be here making an article on a scientific subject.

OK Darwinists. Chime in.

raspor 12:21, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Mr. Falsification's own words: (Popper)

"From this point of view the question of the scientific status of Darwinian theory—in the widest sense, the theory of trial and error-elimination—becomes an interesting one. I have come to the conclusion that Darwinism is not a testable scientific theory, but a metaphysical research programme—a possible framework for testable scientific theories."

raspor 12:23, 4 January 2007 (UTC)