Talk:Abiogenesis
Abiogenesis received a peer review by Wikipedia editors, which on February 2009 was archived. It may contain ideas you can use to improve this article. |
Some users have noted that many of these questions should be included in the text of Abiogenesis. The reason for their exclusion is discussed below. The main points of this FAQ (Talk:Abiogenesis#FAQ) can be summarized as:
More detail is given on each of these points, and other common questions and objections, below. To view the response to a question, click the [show] link to the right of the question. Q1: Why won't you add criticisms or objections to abiogenesis in the Abiogenesis article?
A1: Our policies on Wikipedia, in particular WP:WEIGHT and WP:FRINGE, require us to provide coverage to views based on their prominence within reliable sources, and we must reflect the opinion of the scientific community as accurately as possible. While there are scientific objections to hypotheses concerning abiogenesis, general objections to the overall concept of abiogenesis are largely found outside of the scientific community, for example, in religious literature and is not necessary to hash out the evolution-vs.-creationism debate, per WP:NECESSARY. There are articles covering some of those religious views, including Objections to evolution, Creationism and Creation myth, but we cannot provide significant weight to religious opinions within a science article, per our policies.
Q2: Why is abiogenesis described as though it's a fact? Isn't abiogenesis just a theory?
A2: A "theory" in science is different than a "theory" in everyday usage. When scientists call something a theory, they are referring to a scientific theory, which is an explanation for a phenomenon based on a significant amount of data. Abiogenesis is a phenomenon scientists are trying to explain by developing scientific theories. While there isn't one unifying theory of abiogenesis, there are several principles and competing hypotheses for how abiogenesis could have occurred, which are detailed in the article. Wikipedia describes the phenomenon of abiogenesis as a fact because the reliable sources from the peer-reviewed scientific literature describe it as a fact.
Compare it with the theory of gravity, by Isaac Newton. It explains how gravity works, and it was superseded when Albert Einstein provided a more complete explanation. That doesn't mean that the factual existence of gravity was ever held in doubt. Q3: But isn't abiogenesis unproven?
A3: The scientific evidence is consistent with and supports an origin of life out of abiotic conditions. No chemical, biological or physical law has been discovered that would prevent life from emerging.
Clearly, abiogenesis happened, because life exists. The other option is that life is a product of a supernatural process, but no evidence to support this has been published in reliable sources. There is plenty of evidence that nearly all the components of a simple cell can and do form naturally, but it has not yet been shown how molecules eventually formed self-replicating protocells and under what environmental conditions. Q4: Abiogenesis is controversial, so why won't you teach the controversy?
A4: Abiogenesis is not controversial according to the reliable, published sources within the scientific community. Also, see Question 1.
Abiogenesis is, at best, only controversial in social areas like politics and religion. Indeed, numerous respectable scientific societies, such as the American Association for the Advancement of Science and the National Academy of Sciences, have issued statements denouncing creationism and/or ID.[1] In 1987, only about 0.15% of American Earth and life scientists supported creationism.[2] Thus, as a consequence of Wikipedia's policies, it is necessary to treat abiogenesis as mainstream scientific consensus. Besides panspermia, there are no scientifically supported "alternatives" for this view. Q5: Has abiogenesis ever been observed?
A5: No. How this happened is still conjectural, though no longer purely speculative. Q6: How could life arise by chance?
A6: Based on the cited peer-reviewed scientific research, it is thought that once a self-replicating gene emerged as a product of natural chemical processes, life started and gradual evolution of complexity was made possible – in contrast to the sudden appearance of complexity that creationists claim to have been necessary at the beginning of life. Life did not happen just because there were huge intervals of time, but because a planet has a certain range of environments where pre-biotic chemistry took place. The actual nature of the first organisms and the exact pathways to the origin of life may be forever lost to science, but scientific research can at least help us understand what is possible. Past discussions For further information, see the numerous past discussions on these topics in the archives of Talk:Abiogenesis: The article is not neutral. It doesn't mention that abiogenesis is controversial.
The article should mention alternative views prominently, such as in a criticism section. Abiogenesis is just a theory, not a fact. There is scientific evidence against abiogenesis. References
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Definition of life
According to the section "Definition of life", the question about the origin of life requires a common definition of what can be considered "life", and that there might be disputes about that. There are three quotes in that section. However, only the third one provides an actual and workable definition (metabolism, self-repair, and replication). The first one protests about the circular definition from dictionaries (that we should ignore anyway, as trivial for the context of this article), and the second does not define anything. However, if we simply remove both we would stay with just one definition, and that would contradict the premise of conflicting definitions of the concept of life. Are there other scientists that propose alternative definitions of life than the one of metabolism, self-repair, and replication? Cambalachero (talk) 17:18, 20 November 2020 (UTC)
- @Cambalachero: and others - FWIW - a definition of life may be challenging - perhaps "Life#Definitions" may help to some extent - also => my thinking at the moment is similar to the comments I made some years ago - as follows:
Source: "Talk:Life/Archive 4#Definition of Life 2"
FWIW - Of Possible Interest - Seems Others Have Defined "Life" Similar To The One I Posted Earlier [ie, "'Life' (and/or 'Life-Forms'), At The Most Basic Level, Simply Seems To Be *A Chemical That Can Reproduce Itself*"] - There Are Several Examples: One Astronomer Phrases It As "matter that can reproduce itself and evolve as survival dictates"[1] (also, PDF-1[2] and PDF-2);[3] Another Scientist As "a molecule that can reproduce itself" - I Have No Particular Investment In Such Definitions For Purposes Of The Main "Life" Article But Perhaps Such Thinking Might Be Considered To Some Extent? - In Any Regards - Enjoy! :) Drbogdan (talk) 14:18, 14 August 2011 (UTC) - UPDATE -> Added A Brief Line Of Related Text (And Several References) To The Main Article. Drbogdan (talk) 13:27, 28 August 2011 (UTC)
- in any case - hope this helps in some way - Stay Safe and Healthy !! - Drbogdan (talk) 18:10, 20 November 2020 (UTC)
References
- ^ Luttermoser, Donald G. (2012). "Lecture Notes for ASTR 1020 - Astronomy II with Luttermoser at East Tennessee (ETSU)". East Tennessee State University. Retrieved 8 March 2021.
- ^ Luttermoser, Donald G. (2012). "ASTR-1020: Astronomy II Course Lecture Notes Section XII" (PDF). East Tennessee State University. Retrieved 8 March 2021.
- ^ Luttermoser, Donald G. (2012). "Physics 2028: Great Ideas in Science: The Exobiology Module" (PDF). East Tennessee State University. Retrieved 8 March 2021.
- ^ Trifonov, Edward N. (17 March 2011). "Vocabulary of Definitions of Life Suggests a Definition". Journal of Biomolecular Structure and Dynamics. 29 (2): 259–266. doi:10.1080/073911011010524992. Retrieved 15 December 2020.
- ^ Voytek, Mary a. (6 March 2021). "About Life Detection". NASA. Retrieved 8 March 2021.
- ^ Marshall, Michael (14 December 2020). "He may have found the key to the origins of life. So why have so few heard of him? - Hungarian biologist Tibor Gánti is an obscure figure. Now, more than a decade after his death, his ideas about how life began are finally coming to fruition". National Geographic Society. Retrieved 15 December 2020.
- ^ Mullen, Lesle (1 August 2013). "Defining Life: Q&A with Scientist Gerald Joyce". Space.com. Retrieved 15 December 2020.
- ^ Zimmer, Carl (26 February 2021). "The Secret Life of a Coronavirus - An oily, 100-nanometer-wide bubble of genes has killed more than two million people and reshaped the world. Scientists don't quite know what to make of it". Retrieved 28 February 2021.
The concept of abiogenesis is clearly only at the rank of scientific hypothesis. It has never been empirically observed: no experiment or natural observation has demonstrated it. Because it has not been proven to be an existing or producible phenomenon, other, non/supernatural origins of life are logical candidates; the scientific process has been incapable of a demonstrable natural explanation. To exclude such non/supernatural origins of life is therefore scientifically illogical, and evidences not logic but emotional (pre-rational) judgment that another explanation is erroneous; this illogical judgment is contrary to scientific practice and an affront to science itself. It is belief/conjecture, or what is commonly called 'closemindedness'. Therefore, scientific inquiry necessarily mandates that abiogenesis be qualified as a hypothesis, which it clearly is. Being a hypothesis does not diminish its significance, but rather acknowledges the degree of scientific significance appropriate to it.Prestinius (talk) 14:57, 8 February 2021 (UTC)
- Alternative scientific hypothesis are listed at "Conceptual history until the 1960s: biology" Cambalachero (talk) 22:39, 10 February 2021 (UTC)
- FWIW - for even more details re "abiogenesis" and "hypothesis" see the FAQ above and/or at => " https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Abiogenesis#FAQ " - as well as the related discussions in the ARCHIVES above and/or at => " https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Abiogenesis#ARCHIVES " - hope this helps in some way - in any case - Stay Safe and Healthy !! - Drbogdan (talk) 16:53, 13 March 2021 (UTC)
Edition of Abiogenesis
8. Pertinent geological environments
- The proposal is to preserve the texts in point 8. Whole authors have reliable publications in index Copernicus, Web of Science and Scopus. There are proofs with stromatolites and hot mineral water in open lakes and hydrothermal vents, which are connected with point. • 4 Earliest evidence of life: palaeontology.
I think the text for Mulkidjanian and co-authors is enough. Point 9.3 Zinc-world hypothesis with text for hypothesis of Mulkidjanian needs of edition.
8 Pertinent geological environments
8.1 Darwin's little pond
8.2 Volcanic hot springs and hydrothermal vents, shallow or deep
8.3 Deep sea hydrothermal vents
8.4 Fluctuating hydrothermal pools on volcanic islands or proto-continents
8.5 Volcanic ash in the ocean
8.6 Gold's deep-hot biosphere
8.7 Radioactive beach hypothesis
The proposal is to preserve the texts hear in point 8. Whole authors have reliable publications in index Copernicus, Web of Science and Scopus. There are proofs with stromatolites and hot mineral water in open lakes and hydrothermal vents.
I think the text for Mulkidjanian and co-authors is enough.
Point 9.3 Zinc-world hypothesis needs of edition. Petrov Russia (talk) 07:57, 16 January 2021 (UTC)
3. Early universe and Earth: astronomy and geology
- In point 3 there are a lot of texts without connection with origin of life.
This point 3 needs edition with direction origin of life.
3. Early universe and Earth: astronomy and geology
3.1 Early universe with first stars 3.2 Emergence of the Solar System 3.3 Emergence of Earth 3.4 Emergence of the ocean 3.5 Late heavy bombardment
Petrov Russia (talk) 09:18, 16 January 2021 (UTC)
Other hypothesis
As noted in the template at the top, the article is very long right now. Some content that we may move away is the "Conceptual history until the 1960s: biology" section, as it deals with other hypothesis that have little or nothing to do with abiogenesis, such as spontaneous generation. We can move that content to an article with the history of the studies of the origin of life. Cambalachero (talk) 21:12, 13 February 2021 (UTC)
- Maybe we could split off "Conceptual history..." into its own article, like "History of Abiogenesis"?--Mr Fink (talk) 21:39, 13 February 2021 (UTC)
- Not with that name. Those other theories are about the same topic (the origin of life) but not about abiogenesis. Cambalachero (talk) 21:46, 13 February 2021 (UTC)
Criticism on abiogenesis
In the talk page it is stated that: "The occurrence of abiogenesis is uncontroversial among scientists, and there is ongoing research and competing hypotheses for how abiogenesis could have occurred." >>>That alone is a statement that is very diffuse. Which scientists agree? Are there surveys and data that support this hypothesis?
Then it is stated that: "Wikipedia's neutral point of view policy requires that minority views not be given undue emphasis. It is against Wikipedia policy for views without scientific support, such as all known objections to abiogenesis, to be included in a science article like Abiogenesis."
>>>My question is: In view of this statement, why is it okay to delete a section on a critical reception of the chemical evolution theories, based mainly on the scientific contribution of a professor of polymer chemistry and published in a highly recognised scientific publisher? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Joe Sloppy (talk • contribs) 13:59, 5 May 2021 (UTC)
- @Joe Sloppy: and others - Thank you for your comments - the edit in question is copied below:
Copied below from the following => https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Abiogenesis&diff=1020675249&oldid=1020656503
My edit summary comments => "Rv edits - added text does not seem to be clearly supported by cited ref - please discuss on the talk-page for WP:CONSENSUS - per WP:BRD, WP:CITE, WP:NOR & related - thanks"
-- Criticism --The hypotheses on chemical evolution and especially their optimistic interpretation with regard to the clarification of the origin of life are partly viewed critically. For example, the german expert for polymer chemistry Prof. Hans R. Kricheldorf, after analyzing the current hypotheses on chemical evolution, comes to the following conclusion: "The numerous gaps in knowledge, negative results and counter-arguments, [...], make it difficult with the current state of knowledge to accept from a distanced, scientific point of view the former existence of a chemical evolution leading to life. Despite numerous advances, especially within the framework of the RNA-world hypothesis, the results available so far are by far not sufficient to sufficiently substantiate a chemical evolution up to living organisms."[1]
References
- ^ Kricheldorf, Hans R. (2019). Leben durch chemische Evolution?: Eine kritische Bestandsaufnahme von Experimenten und Hypothesen (in German). Berlin, Heidelberg: Springer Berlin Heidelberg. doi:10.1007/978-3-662-57978-7. ISBN 978-3-662-57977-0.
My main concern at the moment is that the added text does not seem to be clearly supported by the cited reference - there may be other concerns as well (wording, balance, more?) that may also need to be considered before adding the text to the article - in any case - Comments Welcome from other editors (esp those familiar with German) - and - Stay Safe and Healthy !! - Drbogdan (talk) 13:35, 6 May 2021 (UTC)
- Some random book by some random person, pretty obviously picked for its conclusion. Not good enough. --Hob Gadling (talk) 14:27, 6 May 2021 (UTC)
Ah, okay @Hob Gadling. I didn't know you had to have a certain status to contribute to Wikipedia. Can you perhaps give me a hint on how to achieve this? Is there anyone else who would like to discuss the content of the topic instead of discrediting the author or the scientific reference without knowing it? @Drbogdan: I appreciate your effort to prevent any unsubstantiated claims and unscientific assumptions about abiogenesis from appearing in this wiki article. However, you yourself write that you cannot judge the German source. This means to me that your main concern: "that the added text does not seem to be clearly supported by the cited reference", is merely that you cannot assess the source because of the language barrier. So I think your suggestion is great that other (German-speaking) editors take another look at the source. Until then, however, I would ask for impartiality, as this is a publication in a renowned scientific publishing house, which should contribute to critically questioning previous hypotheses and thus enable scientific progress in the field of abiogenesis (this goal is also formulated in the corresponding publication). From my point of view, this is exactly what science is all about: critically questioning and falsifying hypotheses. General rejections of such contributions and persons, such as in Hob Gadling's answer, I therefore find rather counterproductive at this point. Best regards, JoeJoe Sloppy (talk) 12:48, 7 May 2021 (UTC)
- We know that it happened, we don't know how it happened. Why? Because
a magic man done it
isn't a scientific theory. And because panspermia simply meansabiogenesis elsewhere
. tgeorgescu (talk) 02:43, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
- Okay, maybe I do need to clarify that at this point. Especially for those who smell an agenda of religious people behind every criticism concerning the hypotheses of abiogenesis.
- The source, which was quoted in the section, was published in a recognized science publishing house (as I already stated). The author is not religious in any way and even points out several times that his questions to the hypotheses on abiogenesis are not religiously motivated in any way. (Bad enough that a scientist must first explain themself before theories may be scientifically questioned.... But probably that is so in the case). As far as I know (and also other authors point out), there is up to now no theory which can explain the abiogenesis conclusively comprehensively. Therefore, in my opinion, it is logical or compelling to point out the ambiguities and open questions in the theories designed so far, precisely in order to enable progress in this regard. Everything else would be as if one had built an airplane that obviously cannot fly, but one does not look at the weak points out of fear that one could find out that the variant of the airplane will never be able to fly and one must perhaps start again.
- Then, however, this is no more science which one pursues, but itself again a belief in the correctness of the own point of view.
- That's why I think it's essential not to leave out critical, scientific voices, but to deal with the questions raised, because, well, because that's science.
- In addition, I would be pleased if also (gladly critical) voices speak up, which first of all look at the source, before they put the author in any corner, because it is already clear to you before that it can be anyway only about any religious word messages. That is then nice, because you do not have to deal with the contents of the discussion and your own world view does not waver... But it is also anything but a scientific approach, which, at least as far as I understand it, should be the basis of the Wikipedia articles.
- Joe — Preceding unsigned comment added by Joe Sloppy (talk • contribs) 21:21, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
- Wikipedia does not "do" science, we only summarize mainstream science according to WP:DUE. We're not a scientific laboratory, not an university, not a publisher of original research, not a publisher of WP:FRINGE research, not a publisher of WP:UNDUE research, and so on. tgeorgescu (talk) 22:06, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
- I understand your point. But when new scientific evaluations of hypotheses appear, it is perhaps worthwhile to take a look at it as a Wikipedia community, since the scientific discourse continues, which is to be represented on Wikipedia. As I said, to evaluate such contributions from the outset as pseudoscience without knowing them (I assume that you have not read the contribution yet) shows in my opinion only of wanting to represent their own opinion on Wikipedia and not the scientific consensus.
- If that were so, contents would be discussed at the place. So one can also come gladly to the conclusion that the source can be inserted in another place. E.g., here: "Although the occurrence of abiogenesis is uncontroversial among scientists, its possible mechanisms are poorly understood. There are several principles and hypotheses for how abiogenesis could have occurred.[12]"
- Although that is not as appropriate as a separate section in my opinion. Joe Joe Sloppy (talk) 06:01, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
I *entirely* agree with all the editors above presenting concerns, as I have as well originally, about this material and reference(s) - seems the "WP:CONSENSUS" is clear => the proposed edit material (and related references) are not to be added to the main article - and for reasons that are very well described above by the editors challenging the proposed edit - hope this helps in some way - in any case - Stay Safe and Healthy !! - Drbogdan (talk) 06:36, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
- "[...]for reasons that are very well described above by the editors challenging the proposed edit"
- The criticism from the editors has so far referred to me as the author or to general polemics regarding the discussion of the topic of abiogenesis. So far, not one contribution has dealt with the content of the cited source. But if these are the "very well described reasons" to which you refer, there is probably no need to put any more work into this and Wikipedia will have to live in its filter bubble for a little longer (at least as far as this article is concerned).
- Nevertheless, I am of course still open to comments and hints on the content. Joe
- @Joe Sloppy: We only render broadly accepted scientific ideas, so unless he posits something new (a novelty) and widely accepted I don't think we have to render each source which rehashes the idea that we don't know how it happened. tgeorgescu (talk) 08:37, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
- Since I have the feeling that some editors feel that this is about advertising ID, I would like to quote from the preface of the source that is being discussed all the time:
- "If the criticism of the interpretation of results of the bottom-up approach expressed in many places should stimulate one or the other reader to new experiments, then this book has achieved its purpose. In any case, it was not the author's intention to please the reader with a new hypothesis or even pseudo-religion on the origin of life. Hans R. Kricheldorf"
- It is commendable that the editors ensure that Intelligent Design theories do not find a place in the article on abiogenesis. However, this should not mean that scientific points of criticism are excluded in principle. Otherwise science degenerates into pseudoscience.Joe Sloppy (talk) 08:43, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
@tgeorgescu: I dont agree. Hes saying something about the quality of the current hypothesis, which is to my opinion so far not really part of the article on abiogenesis.Joe Sloppy (talk) 08:47, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
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