Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Deir ez-Zor Camps

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. MBisanz ^talk 01:20, 25 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Deir ez-Zor Camps

The idea of "Deir ez-Zor Camps" which the article is based on is a fictional concept. There is no single research published using the title "Deir ez-Zor Camps" and the google search [1] only gives 10 web pages that are mirrors of this article in Wikipedia. The references used in the article mentions Armenians being perished around the town "Deir ez-Zor," but none uses the term "Deir ez-Zor Camps." In the case of the first citation used in the article; there is no single sentence in the book that matches "great "killing center."" Google Book Search results in "Your search - Search results for 'Deir ez-Zor camps were a great killing center' - did not match any documents." The article is original research or original thought of the autor. There is not any independent sources of sufficient depth that covers this topic. Cemil Yilburak (talk) 01:32, 20 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Most of the references in this article are not available online. And because it's Martin Luther King Day in the United States, libraries are closed. I am withholding comment regarding the disposition of this article until I can obtain a copy of the book in the first reference, and possibly other referenced works, to determine whether they substantially verify the content. The Nordic Goddess Kristen ^{Worship her} 01:58, 20 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Nordic, look at Google books: for example,

"out of Deir-ez-Zor camps" [A Crime of Silence: The Armenian Genocide‎ - Page 80, by Permanent People's Tribunal, Gerard J. Libaridian, Permanent Peoples' Tribunal - 1985 - 249 pages]
"Only 50000 people made it to Aleppo, 120000 survivors arrived in Hamah, Horns and then Damascus, whereas 200000 were moved to the Deir-ez-Zor camp.[The Forgotten Genocide: Eastern Christians, the Last Arameans‎ - Page 157, by Sébastien de Courtois - 2004]
"Last winter they were in an Armenian Camp at Deir Ez-Zor". [America and the Armenian Genocide of 1915‎ -by J. M. Winter - 2003 - p. 162]
Christopher J. Walker calls Deir ez-Zor "a vast and horrific open-air concentration camp".[Armenia: The Survival of a Nation, by Christopher J. Walker, second edition, 1990, p. 205]
Survivors were sent from there to the death camps of Der-el-Zor and thereabouts in the deserts of Mesopotamia. ["Starving Armenians": America and the Armenian Genocide, 1915-1930 and After‎, by Merrill D. Peterson - 2004, p. 41]
Refers to the Der el Zor desert, which became synonymous with death camps during the Armenian genocide. [Girlhood: Redefining the Limits‎, by Yasmin Jiwani, Candis Steenbergen, Claudia Mitchell, 2006, p. 33]
The former were sent to Aleppo, where there was a possibility of meager survival; the others were dispatched to the death camp at Deir ez,Zor. [The Armenian People from Ancient to Modern Times‎. by Richard G. Hovannisian - Armenians - 2004 Page 267]Gazifikator (talk) 05:28, 20 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Keep, [2] [3] [4] [5] verify this article's subject. Brilliant research, Gazifikator :) The Nordic Goddess Kristen ^{Worship her} 16:16, 20 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Do these sources presented with these searches (five in total) satisfy "sources of sufficient depth?" It seems the word was used in a single sentence and/or in a single page. It seems the authors used the word as a rhetorical tool. Such as "depths of hell" is a rhetorical tool to express the sufferings of people. I'm asking these questions to remind that it seems there is some expert knowledge needed. I do not see these links giving much support to existence of Camps. Is there any proof that we are not adapting "a rhetorical" tool as a fact. Is there an analysis regarding these camps? The article states that there are multiple camps. But these searches do not point to multiple camps. The links are not giving clear answers to major questions. All these sources mention refugees in the region, but establishment of a refugee camp is another issue. I do not find references in these sources about establishment of these camps. Also, the article does not present sufficient proof regarding these camps. A camp has an establishment and/or demolition date. A camp has a size; How many people? How long they lived in this place? What is the survival rate? If there is a camp, there is a responsible person for that camp. Who were the managers of these camps? A camp is an institution. Where is institutional information? I just looked at Auschwitz concentration camp. I do not see any resemblance with this article. Some of these searches you have presented points to "A Crime of Silence: The Armenian Genocide‎". Does this source fulfill the "independent sources" requirement. I could not find the use of this term by the "independent sources." Given the non-existence of basic details, the article became a "slanted content." It doesn't sound balanced, there is not any third party source to fix this article, assuming there were camps. By the way, existence of refugee (I believe there were refugees in the region) does not require existence of a camp. Is there any way to answer these questions? — Cemil Yilburak (talk) 21:54, 20 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

You opened this AFD by claiming that the article's subject was a figment of the author's imagination, and was completely unverified by any of the sources provided. But we've shown that sources do use the term, and use it in a way that seems, to me at least, to be descriptive, not "as a rhetorical tool". It's true that each source may describe the Deir ez-Zor Camps only tersely, while hundreds of thousands of pages have been published about Auschwitz concentration camp. This is probably because some crimes against humanity have been better studied than others, which certainly limits the depth of our coverage, but shouldn't imply that a site at which a mass murder was perpetrated is "non-notable". If you wish to assail the reliability of the sources, then you cannot simply quote what appears to be a non-neutral title - many books about the Holocaust likewise express shock and revulsion at the horrors they describe. Your claim

Also, the article does not present sufficient proof regarding these camps. A camp has an establishment and/or demolition date. A camp has a size; How many people? How long they lived in this place? What is the survival rate? If there is a camp, there is a responsible person for that camp. Who were the managers of these camps? A camp is an institution. Where is institutional information?

is handily rebutted by the fact that per WP:V

The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth—that is, whether readers are able to check that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source, not whether we think it is true.

So, if third-party RS verify the existence of this article's subject - and it seems that quite a few RS do - then based on what the sources describe happening at the Deir ez-Zor Camps meeting any sensible standard of notability, this article should be kept. The Nordic Goddess Kristen ^{Worship her} 22:39, 20 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know how much of the information presented in the article is factually true or not, but I must say that it is not really clear to me that any of the books mentioned can be considered reliable and based on scholarly research. Most of it seems to come directly or indirectly from the Armenian diaspora camp, not always noted for impartial and careful research concerning the Armenian genocide. Wikipedia should be extra careful here not to become a propaganda tool. :wimdw: 01:06, 21 January 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wimdw (talk • contribs)

Google books search gives 2,080 on Armenian genocide. "Armenian refuges in Syria" gives 924. Armenian genocide is the second most studied genocide in the world (Article itself claims it). If you search scholarly: there is book with a cheaper on Armenian Refugees in Syria. If you are interested. I'm not so sure if this wiki editor is knowledgeable person or not, but this concept is an extreme view. The rethoric and structure of the article is clearly do not support the idea that he is citing the available information correctly. It surely do not fall into "any independent sources of sufficient depth." Thank you for your interest into this subject, but I sincerely believe, use of "Camps" a seriously problematic concept; though not the refugees and their sufferings. — Cemil Yilburak (talk) 01:31, 21 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Strong and Speedy Keep The numerous sources listed by Gazifikator and Kristen Eriksen show the nomination is incorrect on every point. Edward321 (talk) 01:37, 21 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Keep sufficient good sourcing. Some of the sources are from reliable non-controversial publishers. . DGG (talk) 03:38, 21 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.