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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 129.22.53.86 (talk) at 19:39, 24 February 2007 (→‎jadeknight: Alternative to lack of support for feminism/lesbianism being caused by man-hating?). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Lack of Sources

This article does not meet Article standards as stated in the Wikipedia policies. Of peticular note is the complete lack of sources. This makes the entire article non-verifiable. I have added a References section with the first source I could. But I can not be sure this is where the original author got his information. I have left most of the article intact for the most part because I believe the sources do exist, but someone needs to make a comprehensive list of citations before furthur editing this page.

Please refer to Wikipedia:Citing Sources, Wikipedia:No original research, Wikipedia:Verifiability.

I removed the "Feminist objections to penis envy theory behind Electra complex" entirely because it contains POV statements and does not contain any sources or citations. Although this section should be added again when sources are stated.

--Yari 01:10, 7 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Not quite spot on

"when she discovers that she lacks a penis during the phallic stage the daughter becomes libidinally attached to her father and imagines that she will become pregnant by him, while becoming more hostile towards her mother. This is due mostly to the idea that the girl is "envious" of her father's penis and wants to possess it so strongly that she dreams of bearing his children, thus the term "penis-envy".

Im inclined to disagree with this. Although I'm not the worlds biggest fan (or expert on Freud) of the concept of the 'Electra Complex', i do feel that it could be represented slightly more accurately by saying something like: 'at the phallic stage, the girl is interested in her anatomical equivalent of the penis, the clitoris. However, the size difference brings on an envious desire to have a penis of her own, 'penis envy'. The girl resolves her issues with regards to ‘penis envy’ when she realises there is no hope of achieving masculinity and reconciled herself to life without a penis, allowing the ‘Electra complex’ to take hold. The ‘Oedipus complex’ is resolved, in boys, by the ‘castration complex’ and the fear of castration, but girls, upset by being already ‘castrated’, turn their attention away from their mother, feeling they must have been punished, and a parallel between the two complexes is drawn by the attraction of the girl to her father.' maybe a bit long winded, and it doesn't really stick up for the patchy at best theorizing, but its a tad more precise. comments?--E.J.H.M


Hasn't all of these, from Penis envy to Oedipal and Elektra complexes been thoroughly debunked?

Weaker superego

According to some radical psychologists, the male psyche is the dominant entity in human relations.  
This may be due in part to the belief that females have a weaker superego, where morality is
developed and values internalized

can someone explain me the logic (if any) of this sentences? Melaen 02:41, 19 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Arguments and ommisions of paragraphs

There has been a lot of back and forth deleting of this paragraph. I'd like to reach a consensus here, rather than this turn into an edit war (which is accelerating...). Obviously there seems to be some kind of difference of opinion here. Here is some of the reasoning from the history: Tyciol 05:49, 2 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

removed unsubstantiated "pay gap" claims, removed speculative paragraph with no references (with several non NPOV claims regarding "equality", education, wages, etc 24.85.83.170

(rv, you would HAVE TO cite your sources for that statement) Fenice

As well as an anonymous change without explanation by 24.173.0.199, which was rather suspicion considering Fenice's changes.

I'd like to know, are these three identities separate, or all Fenice on some kind of campaign to omit changes through mass deletion of additions? Only the last IP is one I accuse of vandalization, if Fenice and 24.85 are different from that then you are not included in the accusation, for explanations were provided. I simply found them inadequate and short-tempered. Tyciol 05:49, 2 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

jadeknight: Alternative to lack of support for feminism/lesbianism being caused by man-hating?

I was just wondering, was the change because you think there might be some evidence out there? I suppose there definately could be in theory, as I fail to look at sexuality or sexual expression as being solely genetic, and they could thus be influenced by the hatred of the male sex.

Sexually, it wouldn't necessarily lead to lesbianism. It could also lead to celibacy, a sadistic heterosexual relationship, or repressed anger and anxiety. There's also not really any good explanation for why the mention is relevant if no cases have been isolated in any large number towards this. I'm sure we can find some though, there's bound to be a case of just about any malady you look up.

In looking at feminism though, it does seem likely that the hatred of men would lead to a focus on solely women's rights rather than universal human rights. This is of course, not to mean that all feminists are man-haters, but that most man-haters would be feminists. I am at a difficulty to think of an exception, except perhaps someone who hates gender and sexual division as a whole, and does not choose to let her bias influence her political direction, which is understandable, as Electra complex people could still be very well in control of their minds and competant citizens. -Tyciol 09:47, 7 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Well the fact that this complex is not known to be present in female dominated societies, and in female dominated primates (like Bonobo chimps) leads me to believe that the view of women in a society as second class seems to cause the rise of things like feminism as a counter to these freudian and freudian derived therories.


Question? Why is the "Feminists Objection to Penis Envy" part of this page at all? I thought this is supposed to be an encyclopedia and not a soapbox. Wouldn't this fragment be better placed within a more suitable article and linked by a brief caption? Perhaps the "Femininst's Right's Movement". Or even spun into it's own article called "Objections by the Feminists Rights Movement".

Drlowell 22:32, 23 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Re: Freud

I don't understand why there is no mention of the fact that Freud, and related/stemming theories have widely been discredited in the modern study of human behavior and development. The concepts are presented more as debated but accepted theories rather than dated understandings. I suggest that the article be re-worked to reflect the common regard that Freud's theories are unsound.

I've haven't seen a logical explanation for why Freud's theories are so quickly dismissed. However, I think I have seen the claim on every article I've found on the Electra Complex. Although, I don't recall seeing it in regards to the Oedipal Complex. Therefore, I'm inclined to think that the claim is based on Feminist ideology. barkmoss 00:10, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

Part of the reason for its dismissal is due to the fact that his view of women basically regarded them as being basically incomplete men, and most modern psychologists have found nothing to support his view, in addition to the fact that his theories are unscientific, since you can't really attempt to falsify them, as for example if someone claimed they didn't go through a particular freudian phase they would be considered as repressing rather than having never actually underwent that phase. Also if you look at Female dominated cultures and the female dominated Bonobo Chimps you see no evidence of Freud's theories holding up, the truth is Freud's therories were more a result of his own personality and the society he lived in, they are, for the most part, in no way universal.


I'm sorry, but this is completely wrong. Freud did not come up with the Electra Complex, that was Jung - you've got the connection to penis envy all wrong... please read my update on the Oedipus complex article.


--Pteron 02:50, 29 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Why not change it then? :P Wally 19:38, 6 Mar 2004 (UTC)

REmoved this bit: "This is often falsely ascribed to Sigmund Freud. In fact, it aroused Freud's anger, for he had a more complex construction of the female Oedipal complex", because it's not quite true. Freud did equate Electra complex with feminine Oedipus attitude: "It does little harm to a woman if she remains in her feminine Oedipus attitude. (The term 'Electra complex' has been proposed for it) [By Jung] She will in that case choose her husband for his paternal characteristics and be ready to recognize his authority. Her longing to possess a penis, which is in fact unappeasable, may find satisfaction if she can succeed in completing her love for the organ by extending it to the bearer of the organ, just as happened earlier when she progressed from her mother's breast to her mother as a whole person." -- Nunh-huh 06:16, 2 Apr 2004 (UTC)

history and criticism

I assume that the definition and explanation has changed over time in response to criticism. For concepts like this that have great historical significance yet are little used today it may be best to give a history of the concept and how it has been used and changed over time. --Gbleem 16:22, 8 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

cleanup!

added a cleanup header for the numerous spelling errors and POV statements.128.208.125.95 02:14, 28 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Yikes, FPOV everywhere

Wow, bias.

I agree with DrLowell above, this is not a soapbox. From the very beginning of this article there is an obvious criticism going on. Whether or not the criticisms are true is immaterial; this should be an objective explanation of the origin and explanation (from the progenitors) of the idea of the Elektra Complex. I'd do it myself but I'm not a student of psychology, would someone please just rewrite this thing so it sounds more like an encyclopedia article than an editorial?

And then whoever wants to detail feminist criticisms of the idea can make their own page called "Feminist Criticisms of the Elektra Complex" and feel free to link it as a related article here.

Warning

This article copies almost word by word these sources: http://en.allexperts.com/e/e/el/electra_complex.htm and http://en.allexperts.com/e/p/pe/penis_envy.htm

In fact, the 'Feminist criticisms' section that was removed also comes from there.

This may be basis for article deletion, please fix it. Cheers Raystorm 21:11, 23 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

A good example

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oedipus_complex

The article for the Oedipus Complex (linked above) is a great example of how this article should be. First a basic definition with an explanation of its origin. Then various subheaders with explorations of related topics including a separate section for criticism. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by GKabik (talkcontribs) 22:11, 24 January 2007 (UTC).[reply]