Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Judo at the 2009 Maccabiah Games

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. This is confusing, but there appears to be consensus against the compromise merge and there is no attribution to be preserved. If someone needs the content to merge, no need to come through WP:REFUND Star Mississippi 03:37, 30 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Judo at the 2009 Maccabiah Games

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Per WP:NOTDATABASE; fails WP:SIGCOV and WP:GNG. There is consensus to delete prior editions. Sportsfan 1234 (talk) 15:07, 14 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Sports and Israel. Sportsfan 1234 (talk) 15:07, 14 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Also nominating:

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Martial arts-related deletion discussions. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 16:11, 14 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Keep: The result of the previous discussion was to delete a prior EDITION, not EDITIONS. These 3 articles are a whole different discussion. In a quick google search I've found coverage of the 2009 edition at Israel's largest newspaper at the time. I've added some of the information from that article to it's wiki counterpart. Have you tried improving these articles before blank nominating them for deletion? This suggestion seems agenda driven, more than one based on a true lack of coverage. Pinging @Simeon and Dr vulpes: who might want to add to this discussion. CLalgo (talk) 20:09, 14 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I've already managed to add iformation and citations from secondary sources to 2009, 2017 & 2022, and that's in 30 minutes. The articles can and should be improved but NOT deleted. There is notability, information can be found. One needs only to try. CLalgo (talk) 20:44, 14 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

This is a clear violation of WP:CANVASS. Tagging all other users who were in the last discussion here. @Vexations, @Avilich, @Gidonb @Papaursa @SWinxy @Malcolmxl5 and @Littehammy Sportsfan 1234 (talk) 21:20, 14 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

(pinged) More to the point, this seems to me like this is an attempt at WP:VOTESTACKING: it is similarly inappropriate to send a disproportionate number of notifications specifically to those who expressed a particular viewpoint on the previous debate. Simeon and Dr vulpes were the ones who !voted to keep the 2005 editions. I will cast my thoughts once I see newcomers cast theirs (would bias things otherwise). SWinxy (talk) 22:57, 14 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Delete The article has two sources, a sports database, https://www.judoinside.com/event/5807 and an article that was published on 18 June 2009, a month before the event took place: https://www.ynet.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-3733416,00.html. There is no significant coverage of the event itself. If such coverage exists, please add it and I'll reconsider. As for agenda, I have none with regards to coverage of Judo, except Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not and my distaste for turning an encyclopedia into a clone of existing sports databases. Vexations (talk) 10:17, 15 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Delete all per my previous comments. We need better-developed articles instead of these thinly sliced intersections of an edition per sport. The literature does not support that. gidonb (talk) 11:19, 15 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Delete all per NOTDATABASE, no evidence of notability as a subtopic of the games themselves. Avilich (talk) 21:50, 15 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Delete all. I agree with the failure to pass WP:NOTDATABASE and partially WP:INDISCRIMINATE. Wikipedia shouldn't just be a listing of sports events, but include encyclopedic content. SWinxy (talk) 21:24, 16 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Suggested compromise; Merge: I see that I'm in the minority, supporting leaving the separate articles be. I would like to suggest an alternative solution to their deletion, alongside the information in them and the work done in their build. Let us merge all relevant articles under Judo at the Maccabiah Games, with the deleted articles redirected to their respective sections in the new aggregated article. @Sportsfan 1234, Vexations, Gidonb, Avilich, and SWinxy: Do you object? CLalgo (talk) 08:11, 21 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
If there's something that is not raw stats, and is well-sourced, I have no objections to including that information in an article somewhere. But if it's the same content, only now all in one place, I don't agree with that. Vexations (talk) 11:06, 21 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Contents of these articles can be copied and pasted into the Maccabiah edition articles. Mention where you got the content in the edit summary. Tables should be hidden please if too much. Texts that describe events definitely can be merged. Often the texts that exist only explain where events were held, so I am not getting into merges, but there is some material that can be manually merged. Initially, also mentioned. Now referring back to previous comments. There can also be a list of medal winners per sport at all Maccabiah editions. As I mentioned upfront, the Maccabiah is an important event. We are currently overdoing its importance in the number of articles, and underdoing it in their content. gidonb (talk) 13:05, 21 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Your suggestion seems fair to me, but I'm reluctant to create such articles just to have them go strait to AFD. Will we get support in pausing the Maccabiah articles deletions, to reorganize them in a better way, as suggested? CLalgo (talk) 15:42, 21 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I did not see any deletions that were not intersections between a particular sport and a particular edition. We do have a few all-Maccabiah articles. Please do not enter any game summaries there. Just one list of all medal winners in all editions. Or multiple lists in one article, for example, for tennis and rowing. When there are game/configuration variants. As for the edition articles, feel free to work against the clock with copy and pastes. If you missed and want to go back to something, follow the links here and ask a mod to access any deleted article. gidonb (talk) 16:19, 21 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

As for the permanent value of medalist lists. Consider the following hypothetical (i.e. I do not know any of the following to be true!!!). Famous international and Israeli swimmers, with articles, have participated in the Maccabiah and won medals. In the newspapers, there are comparisons between editions: who returned, who did not, who faired better, and who faired worse. Badminton: the totally unknown top Israeli players participate and totally unknown players from some countries, who can hit the shuttle. Nobody cares about the games. For one create a medalist list, for the other not. gidonb (talk) 16:40, 21 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

don't agree. This is a minor global event with non-notable athletes (for the most part) Sportsfan 1234 (talk) 17:08, 21 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Taking out the tables, and combining all the articles leaves little meat leftover. For that reason, I can't justify a separate article. For now, though, placing it in the respective edition of the Games is what I would do. SWinxy (talk) 20:04, 21 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Relisting to consider Merge option.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 21:38, 21 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Merge, per edition of Maccabiah Games I suggest creating a list of medal winners per edition of the Maccabiah Games. See: Category:Lists of World Games medalists, so we'd have List of 2009 Maccabiah Games medal winners, List of 2013 Maccabiah Games medal winners, etc. We would have two articles: an article for a Maccabiah Games edition and a "list of medal winners" article. I don't know if there is a need to have an article such as "Judo at the Maccabiah Games". If we do, it should probably be a "list of" article like List of Pan American Games medalists in judo as that places emphasis on the list and not that we're intending to write an overview / history of the sport at this multi-sport event. Simeon (talk) 22:29, 21 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
This suggestion seems fair to me. CLalgo (talk) 07:09, 22 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Comment @Liz: I can't see why you relisted this. The purpose of a merge is to preserve the attribution of content, but in this case CLalgo is the sole author and can simply paste the content in another page without a formal merge. CLalgo's needless compromise to "merge" his own content is basically filibustering, intentional or not, and the discussion shouldn't have been relisted for another full week merely because of that. Avilich (talk) 03:28, 22 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sorry you're upset at my decision to relist this discussion, Avilich, but I look at dozens of discussions each day and this one didn't seem to have consensus. If it's any comfort, usually relisted discussions are closed before the week is over by admins who review AFD logs so you probably won't have to wait that long. But I'll leave the next step to another administrator to do, I'm not going to take any further action myself. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 04:40, 22 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know if this stopwatch approach to AfDs is super healthy. Either decision was defendable. Thank you for closing and relisting so many AfDs with great precision, User:Liz! gidonb (talk) 13:52, 22 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.