Talk:Ahmose I

Ahmose I is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do so.

This article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on January 6, 2007.

Article milestones
Date	Process	Result
July 26, 2006	Peer review	Reviewed
November 11, 2006	Good article nominee	Listed
November 21, 2006	Featured article candidate	Promoted

Current status: Featured article

Archives

Archive 1

GA Nomination Straw Poll

I'm all for this, but I'm very busy in real life. I'd like to take a straw poll to see exactly what our various opinions are, so we can fix things, and/or pick a good time to nominate this during which we can defend our work. Therefore...

Support nomination but not too soon if it's all the same with the rest of you. I don't have the time to adress things at the drop of a hat, what with schoolwork being particularly heavy right now. Thanatosimii 20:34, 1 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Undecided for now. It still needs some work. I think once it's been improved some more it'll make an excellent GA nominee. — E ditor at Large ^(speak) 15:51, 5 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Support Ah, what the heck. Go for it! After seeing some other articles that made GA I'd say this one'll do well. And if it doesn't make it, we'll at least have some good recommendations on what to fix up. — E ditor at Large ^(speak) 02:33, 20 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Support nomination but I agree with Thanatosimii on the "not too soon". I am very busy at the moment myself, for much of this month and the start of November. Having gone through the ordeal of getting an article through for Featured Article status, I would hope that the one for Good Article status would be considerably less of a fuss. But there's no rush as I see it, and there have been some additional good contributions by others of late as well. Captmondo 23:40, 5 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Support nomination – I would just go for it, and if it gets shotdown in flames, renominate later. Markh 11:16, 6 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Well, there it goes. Let's see how well this goes. Thanatosimii 04:49, 20 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I honestly don't know how a GA nomination proceeds... Do we have to defend it anywhere, like for FA? Thanatosimii 04:52, 20 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I passed the article, after making some very minor edits, all to do with language. I cant make any suggestions for improvement, since I'm not an expert in the field, but I see no reason why it shouldnt make FA as is. Great work! Druworos 14:03, 11 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Mechanical trouble

For some reason, the tomb equipment of Ahhotep is not showing up, even though it's still in the actual code of the page... Does anyone know exactly why? Thanatosimii 00:42, 16 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

One of the footnotes was missing a forward slash so it was hiding both the image and the next two paragraphs. Maybe the rest should be checked as well. — [zɪʔɾɪdəʰ] · ☥ 01:27, 16 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Photo

Is a creepy mummy photo really the best thing to use for the front page image of this guy? I mean, sure, its him... but thats kinda like putting a jar of ashes as the photo for Gandhi, aint it? Murple 01:32, 6 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The shabti isn't a free image and cannot be on the main page. It's fair use, but Today's featured article can't use free use images. I'd prefer to use the shabti picture too, but such is life. Thanatosimii 01:38, 6 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

That doesn't really make any sense to me... free use isn't free to use? That seems rather silly, but OK... Murple 07:26, 6 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Fair use is only free to use solely to illustrate the subject in question (i.e. on the Ahmose I article page), so that having such a picture on related pages (i.e. the main page) may not qualify as fair use, if I'm right in thinking this...--HisSpaceResearch 14:49, 6 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I concur. As soon as I saw this I was a little creeped out. It's like using autopsy photos of JFK off of rotten.com for his article. 68.55.58.183 03:49, 6 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Agree all you like, but as I have said, nothing can be done about that. The Shabti is not a free image. If any of you live in brookyln and want to go take and GFDL a picture of the shabti in the Brooklyn museum, please do. However, we don't live there, and can't do anything about it. Thanatosimii 04:15, 6 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It's in the Brooklyn museum then? In that case, I intend to contend that it's replacable... Nil Einne 15:39, 6 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I see "one of which resides in the Brooklyn Museum of Art, the other in the Khartoum Museum". I'll be tagging it {{fair use replace}} as soon as it's unprotected if an admin doesn't earlier. Nil Einne 15:44, 6 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It is quite unreplaceable. First of all, the other images are of colossal statuary, what we need is that shabti, that's only in brooklyn I believe (or perhaps it was in the british museum). Second, that tag says "It should be possible for someone to create or find a freely licensed replacement for this fair use work". Find; no. All such images are copyrighted. Create an adequate replacement; also no. Any replacement is likely to be a cruddy duplicate at best. It is not practically possible to replace that image. Thanatosimii 18:04, 6 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Er you seem confused. Given that the shabti is in a public museum in Brooklyn, there is absolutely no reason why someone can't photograph the one in Brooklyn museum and freely license the image rather then use using a photo taken from some British museum under fair use as we currently do. No one is talking about replacing the shabti itself, there is absolutely no need since the info we have suggests there are two shabti's in exitance, publicly viewable and we assumeable photographable... The shabti itself can't be copyrighted since it was create several thousands years ago and thankfully even with the current insane copyright laws on the US, they don't consider such a work copyrighted Nil Einne 16:08, 7 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

There is only one shabti, and it is in the british museum, now that I check it. The other two are colossi. I am not certain that any of them are publically viewable at any given time. We would love a free image replacement, however the chances that it can be done are very low. That is, unless wikipedia wants to finance a several thousand dollar trip to britain for either myself (A native minnesotan), a Portlander or a denzien of Toronto. My objection is that the fair use argument stands on sound legal footing – the statement that the image should not be replaceable is wikipedia's requirement, not the law's, and recall that one of the highest rules is ignore most of the rules if they interfere with wikipedia's best interest. With no legal qualms, while a free image is better, no such image is avalable within reason. The tag you wish to put on says that the image may be deleted if progress is not made within a reasonable amount of time, and the demands being asked of us are unreasonable; yet some delete-happy admin is surely going to come in and delete the image anyhow, if you put that tag up. Thanatosimii 20:12, 7 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Wait, there's more apparently. The wikipedia rules say, "not reasonably repeatable," thus establishing that my position is actually in alignment with the letter of the law for wikipedia too! Thanatosimii 20:17, 7 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I work 5 minutes walk from the British Museum, do you want me to get anything photoed ? Markh 20:50, 7 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Um, Nil Einne, forget all that; I forgot Markh was british (slinks off sheepishly) Thanatosimii 20:58, 7 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Depends if the British shabti is photographable. The implication of [1] suggests that it is part of a special collection not typically on show to the public, and whether or not they would allow Markh to come in and take a photo for Wikipedian purposes is unlikely. Captmondo 15:43, 8 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I can probably get to see it, but taking a photo is probably out of the question. Is there any other depiction of him available ? Markh 19:41, 11 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Ah okay now I understand what all this British Museum stuff was about. Anyway as I've explained all over the place, I withdrew the tag because of the museum restrictions. But no image is in fact better then fair use when the image is resonably replacable and even if you don't agree, policy dictates it is as does precedent so it should have been deleted were it not for the museum policies. Nil Einne 13:59, 17 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I'll probably leave this for ever after this. But I just wanted to point out that this case perhaps illustrates why the policy is effective. Although this image is not replacable, this FA went on the main page with a picture of a mummy with from what I can tell, limited or nor consideration for replacament of the fair use photo which would have been better on the main page were it not fair use. Only when I pointed out it was in violation of policy and suggested it be deleted (which I know realise was wrong) did anyone really start to consider to replace it. I don't think this is unique either. I'm pretty sure there have been other cases when we've survived with fair use photos for a long time. Only when they were deleted or tagged for deletion were they replaced. Nil Einne 14:05, 17 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Your "policy" - which as I read more, the way you are implementing it does not exist - almost got a vital image deleted because the a group of deletionists obstinatly refuse to actually do themselves what they want others to do. Thanatosimii 14:52, 17 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Dab repairing

Could someone fix the Ahhotep dab? I'm not sure which queen is supposed to be. --Brand спойт 00:50, 7 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Done. Thanatosimii 04:08, 7 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

query dominant info box

Is it possible to put the info box on the right? Some pharoah articles have these and it seems a neater way to get to the textual information quickly. If this wall-to-wall layout is not 'style' and putting it on the right is, can someone change it and explain how it's done please? Julia Rossi 00:38, 8 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure it can be done until Markh finds the free version of the image we need in the near future. Thanatosimii 04:16, 8 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The reason for the layout change is due entirely to someone adding the replaceable fair use image request in the pharaoh infobox, which screws up the layout. When that request goes away (possibly taking the image with it) then the infox will return to the usual right-aligned formatting. Captmondo 15:40, 8 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, people... Julia Rossi 06:01, 11 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Ahmoses, and Moses?

Has this connection ever been entertained? certainly a Pharoah under the name Ahmoses, leading nearly 100,000 semites thru the desert to Canaan might possibly have lead an impression on later generations? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.215.154.31 (talk) 05:12, 13 January 2007 (UTC). --71.215.154.31 05:12, 13 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It has not been seriously entertained by scholars, although some non scholars produced a documentary about it. Further, Ahmose's army could not have been near 100,000. Minor raid at best. Thanatosimii 05:24, 13 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Have you seen the history channel special on Moses being during this pharoah's reign? "The Exodus decoded"

I've heard enough about it to know it's totally unscholarly and pretty ridiculous. The History Channel can rarely be trusted. Thanatosimii 18:20, 31 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Moses of the Bible was seen as a liberator of the Hebrews. Amoses I, was seen as a liberator of the Egyptians.

Moses freed the Hebrews from bondage, and led them through the desert to Canaan. Amoses I, freed the Egyptians from Semite bondage, and expelled the Semites from Egypt through the desert into Canaan.

The names "Amoses", and "Moses" are identical names. Historical Kernels indicate we are talking about the same man, a figure who had profound effect on the ancestors of the Hebrews and Canaanites--and was reshaped for religious and political needs of the time. --71.215.154.31 23:44, 7 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Do we have factual inaccuracy now?

The new photo of Ahmose's statue looks great now, however the location where it says it comes from is not one of the three places which have statues according to the article. I have to wonder, is it the source which is incorrect, and has the wrong locations, or is it simply out of date and this is a fourth piece of statuary? Thanatosimii 21:05, 5 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Hard to say. The plaque that accompanied the display of the statue head at the Metropolitan mentioned that it was a "recent acquisition" from 2006. I have no idea if this is a coincidence or not, but the Brooklyn Museum's example was not there, and there was no sign explaining its absence. Perhaps the two museums did a deal recently? (Though the plaque mentioned it was a gift from a particular donor). Can't say with any certainty either way however, as I haven't seen any pictures of what was/is in the Brooklyn Museum. And of course it could also be a recently identified piece by the Met as well. Captmondo 02:55, 6 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I see you've changed the reference on the page with regard to the number of statuary images, yet I suspect it still to be true. While at the Metropolitan in NYC I also picked up the catalog to the recent Hatshepsut exhibition (which had already come and gone from that particular venue). However there is an updated piece by the same author cited in the original reference who talks about the statuary of the early 18th dynasty, and the image of the Ahmose I statue which is now in the Met is listed in the illustrations as a privately owned piece. I suspect that the piece currently on show at the Met is in fact a loan from the Brooklyn Museum and/or the individual who owns the piece. The book also mentions an additional statue currently in a Scottish museum as quite possibly representing Ahmose I as well, which would add another to the known total. Will track down that section in the book and will post the info accordingly. (Did you want a scan of the section in question for reference?)

Cheers! Captmondo 03:05, 13 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It'd be nice to have somthing for reference, but if you know how to get the facts straightened out with the fourth object as well, I think you understand what's going on better than I. Thanatosimii 05:28, 13 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Time allowing, will hopefully sort it out this evening (a pending snowstorm may change that, however). I may also ask the EFF listserv to see if anyone there can add anything further.

Have been largely spending my time of late sorting out the pictures I took as well as those of others over at Wikimedia. Probably by the end of the week I'll have added the rest of other potentially useful images.

One other thing you might want to consider adding to articles is an image gallery, like the one I recently added to the article on KV54. Take a look at the listing at: [2] or [3] for examples of hitherto used/unused images which could be used an a gallery at the bottom of the page.

Cheers! Captmondo 20:26, 13 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, I think I've set the record straight now. I looked up both references, and it turned out that earlier one referenced the statue head in the Brooklyn Museum, and also had a black and white illustration of it. And voila! it is the same one I saw at the Metropolitan Museum and took the photo of. So either the Met has fully acquired it from the Brooklyn Museum, or it is simply on loan. I would guess the latter, since it was evidently part of the touring Hatshepsut exhibition, but playing things conservatively, have identified its location where I actually saw it, at the Met. It is, however, the same statue, so the confirmed number stays the same. I also mentioned another possible 3D representation of him currently residing in a museum in Scotland as well. Everything is referenced, so we're good. Captmondo 03:12, 15 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Removed from main page

"It was he who confronted Moses, many evidence are found in cairo museum today... most shocking is his stela,now lies in the basement of Cairo museum, which tells the whole incident of darkness, hail ,sea turning to blood, locust ,and in wich order it came just as the bible state.. evidence sorrounding his pyramids tombs ,his empire basicaly, concludes that the Exodus indeed happen... also he kept a journal like monument telling the whole story in his point of view... by the way if you translate Ahmose in hebrew, it means the brother of Moses"

Any reason to keep this anon. contribution to the sum of human knowledge? Lou 01:15, 3 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Given that the original posting used a contact email address for the supposed sender (check a few edits back), that there was no citation to back it up, and the poor spelling/punctuation, this is clearly stating a personal opinion and definitely not a scholarly posting. Delete with impunity as far as I am concerned. Captmondo 02:49, 3 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It's clearly from a Jacobovici supporter... who doesn't realize everything Jacobovici says is wrong. Brother of Moses, for instance, would be Senmose or Senmessu depending on what period of the Egyptian language the name was created during. Thanatosimii 03:55, 3 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]