Talk:Joseph A. Cafasso

To add material to this article, please use good quality references, otherwise, material that is unsourced or poorly sourced, or that constitutes original research, will be deleted. See biographies of living people. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 04:08, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Working on it. The article at is read before I started my edits was a whitewash of the controversy surrounding this guy. I'm well aware of NPOV, but facts are facts, which is why I elaborated more on his discredited record. As for other allegiations, namely the $8,000 judgement against him, I can't find any verifiable source at the moment. In addition, many of the links were either incorrect or not valid. Alcarillo 19:04, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Interview in "Outfoxed"

I removed the reference to this documentary which was highly critical of Fox News because Cafasso's presence in it is really small. This is his contribution verabim from transcript.[1]

00:34:42 STILL BUSH TALKING INTO MIC

INTERVIEW JOSEPH CAFASSO (OVER FOOTAGE):
The Christian fundamentalist movement believes in “we’re
right, [00:34:48 JOSEPH CAFASSO 100% LOWER THIRD: Joseph
Cafasso, Former FOX News, Military & Counterterrorism
Editor]
you’re wrong, no matter what.” And I saw a lot of that at

Fox, “we’re right, you’re wrong, no matter what.”

Sounds like he was trying to counter the impact of him leaving the network after being discredited. Regardless, I don't believe it contributes substantially to the article. Alcarillo 03:35, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

I forgot to mention that the text from Cafasso in the book is different than what they use in the film. You can pull up the page in the book through the Amazon Search Inside this book feature. Pleasantville 20:10, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, there may be some useable stuff there. I'll look into it. Alcarillo 22:52, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Cafasso on the web

User:Jossi has taken umbrage with some of the content I added regarding how negatively the blogosphere views Cafasso, considering it possibly defamatory. However, the article as it stood accused him of nothing, yet it apparenly warranted a WP:BLP warning in Jossi's mind. Making a point of it here first would have been a more reasonable response. I think my Wikipedian record speaks for itself as one who does not pursue an agenda here, and hopefully this can be resolved without restorting to a fistful of admin warnings. Sheesh. Alcarillo 22:55, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

That was my second warning. See my comment at top of this page in which I advised you about the need to be cautious given that this is an article about a living person and it should comply with the policy of WP:BLP. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:58, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

So, I've providced links to aforementioned pro-Jonathan Idema sites that are routinely critical of Cafasso in support the paragraph as it now reads. Also, I refrained from linking to individual blog posts in which specific allegations are leveled at him. A search for his name on any of these sites will pretty much show their disdain for him and their support for Idema. I'll try to find as many as I can, but believe me, there are quite a few. Whether they're all from the same author is another matter. Alcarillo 00:42, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

... but that is exactly the problem, Acarillo. These sources are blogs and such blogs and personal sites cannot be used in articles about LPs. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 02:32, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

The only way we can add such material is if there are reputable, published sources that describe that disdain. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 02:34, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

So you're saying that the evidence of blog criticism of Cafasso isn't reputable because it's actually on the blogs themselves? That makes absolutely no sense. How else would any "reputable, published" source describe that disdain unless it actually referred to the content of those blogs? The blogs are the evidence to a simple statement that he has detractors, not that what's being said is true or not. Alcarillo 02:54, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

I would invite you to read WP:ATT and WP:ATT/FAQ. As editors we cannot take sources that are considered unreliable (such as blogs, personal pages, anonymous websites, and the like) and make a deductions about what these blogs say. On the other hand, if a peer reviewed article, book, or other reputable publication such a mainstream newspaper publishes a story in which they say that "there are blogs such and such that are highly critical of Mr. X", then, and only then, we can refer to that source when describing these blog's criticism of Mr. X. You may want to explore the difference between primary sources and secondary sources as presented in WP:ATT/FAQ, for further clarification. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 03:27, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

I read it. Shoulda known: 2+2=5. Alcarillo 18:52, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

I am of two minds about whether to comment here, since I am not a neutral observer. It is notable and fairly well established that Cafasso and Idema have a feud going. Here are few pieces of evidence that can be cited: Idema is known to have co-written Robin Moore's book The Hunt for Bin Laden (Idema even appers on the cover). (As I recall this is discussed in Robert Young Pelton's Licensed to Kill.) The book contains an unfavorable discussion of Cafasso. Idema quotes from the book, using it as a reference on his official website (Superpatriots.us) concerning Cafasso. HOWEVER, if you check the text of the passages Idema quotes, he has rewritten them to claim that Cafasso tried to get him killed. Also, Cafasso was a defendent in one of Idema's lawsuits. The documents concerning the existence of the law suit are public record on the site of a Los Angeles court. Quotng from public record court docs would be a more appropriate way to document the feud than Caosblog.

Though, in general, I disagree with Jossi's stance on blogs, Caosblog and its cousins (Tracking Cafasso etc.) are intentionally defamatory of Cafasso. While some of what they have to say about Cafasso is true and sourced, they co-mingle it defamatory nonsense with fact and like Idema they sometimes rewrite material that seems sourced.

Also, I wanted to explain the importance of the Outfoxed footage of Cafasso: until very recently there was only one photo of Cafasso in general circulation: the one from the New York Times. Cafasso lost about 75 lbs after his personal disaster with the NYT's outing him, such that he no longer bears much resemblance to the NYT photo. He is extremely camera shy. The key thing about the Outfoxed footage is not what he says but rather that it is a properly sourced record of his appearance. You amy or may not want to include it for that reason, but that is the significance of the footage.Pleasantville 14:41, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

You say "I disagree with Jossi's stance on blogs". Well, that is not my stance, rather, well established Wikipedia policy. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:29, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

But then, there's also this rule: WP:IAR, which should come up more often in discussions like this. Pleasantville 19:07, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

We can IAR, but we cannot bypass policy. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 20:40, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Images of Cafasso from "Outfoxed" footage are likely copyrighted anyway and cannot be reproduced here. Although, I think the fact that he was used by the documentary to issue a rebutall of sorts might warrant mention. I'll have to think how to present that info. Alcarillo 16:19, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

If anything, his appearance reflects poorly on the documentarians behind "Outfoxed" as they seem to have failed to check his background as well. Alcarillo 16:46, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Dallas Morning News source

In the section "Political activities", a mention about Cafasso campaigning for Pat Buchanan is sourced as:

Gilliam, Todd J.. "Buchanan secures Texas spot for Reform in presidential bid", The Dallas Morning News, May 9, 2000. “Joe Cafasso, the campaign worker who coordinated the statewide effort from an Irving hotel room, said he had expected to need 'body armor' when he arrived in Bush territory but found the Texans highly receptive.”

User:Pleasantville had provided the reference with a link to a search result on the DMN website. These kinds of search results often expire after awhile and are hard to verify, so I searched their main archives [2]] for "Joe Cafasso" and for the quote cited (in its entirety and using specific phrases), which returned the same result. Alcarillo 16:01, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

I forgot to mention that I included the DMN archive page in the reference's URL, not any link to the actual article. Following the search parameters above will turn up that article in the search result. Alcarillo 16:03, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

The source was initially found via a Google News Archive search. I paid the money and bought a copy of the article. I doubt the link will expire. However, the mention of Cafasso is not in the unpaid summary. Cafasso is also mentioned in the web archives of the Buchanan campaign tax forms. Link can be provided if desired. Pleasantville 20:41, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

I think a link to the tax forms might be useful as further record of his involvment in the campaign. Alcarillo 21:01, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

[3] lists a number of disbusements from the campaign to Cafasso. I'm not sure how to word a bibliographic citation.Pleasantville 21:17, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. I'll add it in when I get a minute. Alcarillo 23:15, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Why were references to his parentage cut?

It is pretty easy to verify via publicly available sources that the late Joseph Anthony Cafasso, Sr. (1924 - 1995; Brown University class of 1950) and the late Giovanna "Jenny" Mosca Cafasso (1923-2006) are the parents of Joseph A. Cafasso, Jr. There are many public records (directory listings, etc.) showing them at the same Carteret address from which Joseph A. Cafasso, Jr. published The Broken Arrow. Both parents are listed in Carteret, NJ in the Social Security Death Index. JA Cafasso, Sr. is listed at the Swarthmore Dr. address in 1990s phone directories, etc. Cafasso Sr.'s Brown University obit.

So why were references to his parentage supported by his parents' obits deleted? Mr. Cafasso, Jr. is in the habit of borrowing aliases and bios from other members of his extended family when convenient. So the fact that his mothers maiden namer is Mosca and also the names of his siblings are of some importance.Pleasantville 20:59, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

The names of his parents could be put in. As far as the details about them, I don't think it's germaine to this article. Alcarillo 23:20, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

74.227.45.202

Have advised 74.227.45.202 (who also edits as 70.152.105.243) of WP:AUTO. --Pleasantville 11:00, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

very interesting

Well...its very nice page. To bad its highly slanted by Ms. Crmaer who seems to have a problem telling the truth. Its my understanding that Ms. Cramer received many accolades and took credit for work done by Cafasso. For example Top Cat Marine Services, The CAG Group in Haiti and its my understanding that the PLO missile graphics was actually created by Cafasso and Cramer did the graphics work for him. Its also my understanding that Cramer made sexual (as a married woman) advances for Cafasso who rebuffed her because she was married. That Ms. Cramer is a fact. Matter of fact in a email i saw you are quoted trying to tell him that "you know you had the hots for me."

Now Ms. Cramer one of the things you did not put into your own bio, which is fact. This is your second marriage. Your first was to a FSO. You were Mr. Hartwell's mistress and broke up his marriage. I say this because while you are lampooning others you need to take a very hard look at yourself.

Many of your charges are exaggerated and it is also my understand that you have been told to stop or take the risk of being sued by Mr. Cafasso.