Talk:Peter Lamborn Wilson

PLW and RAW

Is Peter Lamborn Wilson related to the writer Robert Anton Wilson? -— Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.10.230.143 (talk • contribs)

PLW and RAW have worked together on several projects, including the Semiotext(e) SF anthology, and are colleagues, but are not the same person. --DetlefBenjamin 20:31, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

Question was: Are they related? Not, are they the same person. I have read somewhere that they are in fact brothers. I will search around for the citation though. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.169.189.225 (talk • contribs)

Was this confirmed? Are they infact brothers?? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.131.144.156 (talk • contribs)

No, Peter Lamborn Wilson and Robert Anton Wilson are not brothers. I have met Peter, and he told me he and Robert are not related, just friends and comrades. ---Charles 23:18, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Pederasty

Pederasty seems to be a theme in much of his work, including political advocacy. As this is probably the most controversial thing about him, it ought to at least be mentioned. —Ashley Y 00:11, 2005 Apr 25 (UTC)

Pederasty is only a theme in a very small amount of his work -- a few twenty-year old poems and a translation of some persian poetry. Anarchism and heretical religious histories are much more prominent in his writing, though these topics are less controversial than pederasty. DetlefBenjamin 17:52, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

A small theme, or his life's theme? Consider his work: he labored on a so-called "translation" of Abu Nuwas and published multiple times for the pederastic publishers in Amsterdam, PAN. I don't blame him a bit for this. But I do find that "current anarchists" are trying to touch up the portrait of the actual man.

I have recently published my own translations from Abu Nuwas, and have been somewhat surprised to notice that a number of people continue to prefer the stuff typed up by Hakim Bey, presumably with the main reason being that Hakim Bey was a well-known leftist, and into boys younger than Abu Nuwas actually preferred.

By the way, this man cannot read Arabic. (I haven't fixed this detail in the article, but Abu Nuwas was certainly not a "Persian poet, duh.) He bases his translations on horrible third-hand sources.

While I wish there was no need to say the following, perhaps it will help. I don't know or care about PLW. I'm editing this article because a friend asked me to. (He warned me I'd encounter bias, but then again, he picked me because he knows I'm even-handed.) I'm not anarchist. I'm into females. My current lovers average 40 something. I'm appalled by child abuse. I am committed to wikipedia's policies and guidelines over and above my own agenda. I currently trust you are too. The recent article edit about PLW's Abu Nawas book clearly uses non-NPOV language. I'm assuming you wrote it and ask that you fix it to strictly follow policies and to take reasonable heed of guidelines. If nothing reasonable is done in the next few days I plan to simply remove the current paragraph and leave a copy here. (Or perhaps I'll find time to do it justice and keep it in.) I'd appreciate it if you signed your comments. love, raiph 06:15, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Well it's a little more than a few 20-year-old things. Search on google and you'll find arguably his best work, TAZ, online for free. There are numerous sections in this book that mention advocacy for pedophilia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.112.38.11 (talk • contribs)

He constantly advocates Pederasty, it saturates everything he does, he's a member of NAMBLA. I wonder if he uses 'spiritual' lubricant when he's engaging in 'spiritual' pederasty. Drifter bob 01:36, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

"this particular accusation, concerning only his advocacy, is well-sourced." -- Ashley

"well-sourced." Currently one is a 404 and the _publisher_ of the other source has cataloged the linked article as "Best of the Worst" and described it as "deeply flawed". I believe a better source (by far!) is needed.

"accusation". Wikipedia's own content on pederasty (and even related paraphilias such as pedophilia) seems sufficiently neutral that the word "accusation" doesn't belong, regardless of whether a sentence bringing attention to Wilson's perspective on pederasty does.

Finally, I'm currently not convinced the sentence belongs at all, which is one of the two reasons I ended up deleting it rather than flagging its sourcing. (The other reason was wikipedia's policy on immediately deleting poorly sourced controversial statements in bios of the living.) I understand that pederasty is controversial, and hence Wilson advocating it is in turn controversial, but that alone seems to me insufficient to warrant mention. I don't know what wikipedia's policy on this is, but I would expect it to be that the controversial aspect must be a significant (in terms of quantity or novelty) creative theme of Wilson's work. (Consider, say, Joseph LeDoux's favorable mention of Salman Rushdie. The latter is a controversial figure and hence LeDoux's support is a controversial stance. But this support does not merit mention in a Criticism section of the Joseph LeDoux page, no matter how repugnant many may consider Rushdie to be.) Having read some of Wilson's stuff, I was completely unaware of this pederasty aspect of his thinking, and some quick googling suggests it's just one of a myriad themes he's written about in contrast to the "saturates everything he does" comment above, and thus I currently find questionable the need to include the sentence under discussion in the article. Perhaps improved sources will put me straight. love, raiph 20:42, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Wilson is an anarchist, his advocacy of paedophillia and his association with NAMBLA are highly controversial within the anarchist milleu that constitutes the audience for his writings. How is Wilson's pro-paedophile stance any less relevant than the rest of his political beliefs? Or, for that matter, the exact etymetymological origins of his pseudonym? It's a fact that he has had poetry published by NAMBLA that advocates "pederasty", it's a fact that this has been a cause of a great deal of criticism by other anarchists. Several sources, including the one that I provided are available. You can't just edit out sourced, factual material based upon your opinion. Madashell 21:08, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Allow me to make a few short observations. All of the man's writings which relate to adult-child sex are signed "Hakim Bey." All of the information regarding the controversy about those same writings has been removed from the main article, save the titles of his writings, the fact that he wrote for NAMBLA, and this discussion column. Perhaps it's time for a reality check. The guy certainly argues for adult-child sex, whether pedophile or pederast or a vague presentation covering both, using anarchist ideas to justify his position. The only argument supporting the concealment of this issue is that there may have been some stray piece under "Hakim Bey" that was not written by PLW. Wikipedia is strongly associated with anarchism. Please let's all put our thinking caps on and chime in about whether something's wrong with this picture. By the way, I think that there IS something wrong with this picture. BobHelms 20:30, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

To recap, my position is that we need informative quotes and/or npov summaries, plus good sources of those quotes/summaries, no matter what the topic, but especially when it's controversial. I couldn't find any such quotes/sources that would adequately back up "argues for adult-child sex". If they exist, I'd support their incorporation in the main article. love, raiph 20:13, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Category: pedophilia vs pederasty

I placed Wilson in "Pedophilia:" because his interest seems to be in pre-pubescent boys, while I understand "perderasty" to concern pubescent boys. Is there a better category? -Will Beback 22:51, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

Sorry for jumping the gun. I sometimes take myself a bit too seriously. I would agree with placing him in "pederasty" since what I know about his "interests" is related to his translation of the Abu Nuwas poems, which are understood to be of a pederastic nature. Haiduc 22:56, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

Fine. -Will Beback 22:58, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

Move?

Does anyone oppose a move to Hakim Bey? Google records only 36,600 hits for the current name, with 174,000 for the other. Sarge Baldy 00:43, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Does it matter that Hakim Bey is a pseudonym, and the name listed here is the actual name of the author? DetlefBenjamin 22:09, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Well, there does seem to be a bit of inconsistency. Dr. Dre's page redirects to simply the article titled "Dr. Dre" and not the real name. I'm not going to bother looking up other people's names, but it seems that going by the name that most people know him by would be logical.--Blingice 23:45, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Hakim Bey and Peter Lamborn Wilson might (or might not) be the same the person, but do not write the same texts. In terms of authorship, they represent different styles and different approaches. Diastar 14:53, 19 April 2007 (UTC) diastar

Who?

While we're in the midst of something deep here... Who the blazes is Robert Anton Wilson ? Should we remember Peter Lamborn Wilson for his sake ? -— Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.193.180.172 (talk • contribs)

Hakim or Judge?

His nom de plume does not mean judge in Turkish. There are two words spelled nearly the same in Turkish, originally from Arabic. One is hakîm (pronounced as it is in the name of Bey) which means wise and hâkim which is pronounced HAAH-KIM and means judge. Behemoth 02:13, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

Cleanup

I did some cleanup on this page. I put a title on the question and response related to PLW and RAW. I changed some inconsistencies in formatting. And I removed (this may upset someone) the PLW as "poseur" comment on top along with the link to an article that has circulated the internet for years, and which makes grossly inflammatory suggestions and accusations that have never been proved. Such garbage has no place on wikipedia. The question of pederasty/pedophilia is also very controversial, but I will leave it alone. The fact is, certain people have made a whole lot out of a very few comments, which, compared to the sum total of PLW's writings, are very minor. As far as I am aware, no one has ever stated that PLW has committed a pedophilic act.--Charles 03:48, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

Why would pedophilia be contraversial in this context? Hes a far more radical an individual, then for instance, french 'heavyweight' intellectuals like Derrida, Althusser and Foucault, all of whom signed a petition in the late seventies to the french parliament for legalising all consensual relationships of adults and minors even younger than 15, the age of consent in france of the time. Im quite sure theres nothing contraversial about it for PLW, if he personaly were so inclined or not.. --83.131.144.156 17:39, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

PLW & Hakim Bey

It occurs to me that no one has provided any kind of citation to support the idea that Peter Lamborn Wilson and Hakim Bey are one and the same person. I realize that this rumor has circulated in underground circles for many years, but for the purposes of Wikipedia, we need a reliable source for the assertion. I have spoken with Peter a number of times, and he never denied using the name "Hakim Bey" for some of his writings, but that is not evidence. Furthermore, I would argue that the wide circulation of the name "Hakim Bey" has created a situation in which a number of authors (as the article seems to imply) may have used this name as a pseudonym. Anyone familiar with the Neoist movement's usage of the "Karen Eliot" pseudonym---and the usage by Neoist author Luther Blissett of the name "Hakim Bey"---should understand the necessity of caution in this matter. I am not suggesting a course of action, at least, not at this point, but would certainly like to hear some other opinions as to how we should proceed. Thanks. ---Charles 01:02, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Hello, I just inserted into the text that PLW and Hakim Bey are cross-listeed by the Library of Congress. That alone makes it public record that these are the same person. Aside from that, it's very common knowledge that they are, among anarchist readers. He makes no secret of it. Bob Helms

Cross-listing by the Library of Congress is all well and good, but it does not constitute proof that they are one and the same person---the LoC could be misinformed, and could be acting in good faith based upon said misinformation. What I am saying is that, for purposes of Wikipedia, some sort of reputable source should be provided that every book or essay published under the name "Hakim Bey" was in fact authored by PLW. No such evidence has been forthcoming. Your claim that "it's very common knowledge that they are, among anarchist readers" is not any kind of proof. ---Charles 00:09, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Charles, you might walk to the nearest library and ask what a cross-listing in the LoC catalog means to the reference librarian. It's more hard a source than 99% of the sources quoted on Wiki. Because it is the standard reference for all US libraries, you'll see that the University of Michigan and the NY Public Library and any library carrying his work repeats the cross-reference. Can you name anyone who has met Wilson (as I have) and doesn't believe that he's Hakim Bey? I arranged a lecture for him about 15 years ago, and believe me, his Bey-existence was freely talked about and he inscribed my copy of TAZ. If he's not the same person, why does he publish his stuff in both names in Fifth Estate and Autonomedia/Semiotexte? Or, why does this endless stream of web-biographies and blog spots and newsapper articles name him as the same person, often from his own lips? You seem to be the only guy on the planet who debates the fact. Nobody else signs articles with "Hakim Bey." Is anarchism a part-time subject for you? Do you live in the Gobi Desert? What does the leg you're standing on really look like? BobHelms 00:17, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Listen, I worked for seven years as a librarian, and a good part of that time was spent as a library cataloguer---so, I can tell you from experience that mistakes are made. Beyond that, I am not going to respond to your spurious arguments and assertions, nor your illogical rhetorical questions about the leg I am standing on. I have, as I stated previously, met PLW and spent time with him, and he made no denials about having used the name Hakim Bey---but this, in and of itself, is meaningless. What I have stated very clearly, and what you have failed to refute, is that other people could be using the Hakim Bey pseudonym, and absent verifiable evidence that everything written under the pseudonym was actually written by PLW, said books should not be listed in this article. In an encyclopedia article, so-called "common knowledge" is not the same as evidence. At this point, the article even implies that the pseudonym may have been used by other authors. ---Charles 18:47, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Actually, that PLW has published as "Hakim Bey" at least once is prima facie evidence that all "Hakim Bey" works are his. Unless there's evidence that other people have used the pseudonym, and there doesn't seem to be, we can assume it's all PLW. One might wonder, how do we even know that all work published as "Peter Lamborn Wilson" is the same person? —Ashley Y 00:35, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

There were several publications in Italy authored by Hakim Bey that had nothing to do with Peter Lamborn Wilson. I guess some documentation could be found from the middle 90's. diastarDiastar 15:00, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

There is plenty to dislike about him without having to make stuff up. :-) Steve Dufour 03:25, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

And I find it particularly interesting that my criticisms of him as a "translator" of Arabic (Abu Nuwas) resulted in a little slap for me, PLUS a removal of any discussion of "O Tribe that Loves Boys" from this article -- although the book remains (inexplicably) on the list of books that Wilson wrote.

When I say that Wilson does not know Arabic, I only need to cite the first pages of "O Tribe that Loves Boys," since he openly confesses his ignorance right there. A lot of his stuff is lifted from Tifashi's "Delight of Hearts," some more is "adapted" from the horrible Wormhoudt translation of Abu Nuwas, and quite a bit is simply invented.

I complain about all this because (as earlier stated) I recently published my own translations of Abu Nuwas' homoerotic poetry, under the title "Carousing With Gazelles." The experience of actually dealing with highly-polished 7th-century Arabic (it's hard!) and the actual sexuality of Abu Nuwas -- finally repellent because he liked to "date-rape" his boys -- made me look at Hakim Bey's volume with cold eyes. It's a fake. It's a fraud. And, yes, it IS that simple. JaafarAbuTarab 15:59, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Philosopher?

Does this writer not fall under the domain of a philosopher (and so deserve the respective WikiProject's attention)?--Blingice 23:42, 9 April 2007 (UTC)