Wikipedia talk:Requests for arbitration/Badlydrawnjeff/Proposed decision

Arbitrators active on this case

Blnguyen
Charles Matthews
FloNight
Fred Bauder
Jdforrester
Jpgordon
Kirill Lokshin
Matthew Brown (Morven)
SimonP
UninvitedCompany

Recused

Mackensen

Inactive/away

Flcelloguy
Neutrality
Paul August
Raul654

User comments on the proposed decision

Although I applaud much in the proposed decision that Kirill Lokshin has drafted, the editing restrictions proposed for badlydrawnjeff (which may be moot in any event if he does not return to editing) are draconian. If I am reading the proposed decision correctly, Jeff would not only be banned indefinitely from deletion debates concerning any BLP article (which in itself seems overbroad), but also from ever editing any mainspace article concerning any living person ("all articles covered by the [BLP] policy"). This ban would apply even if the subject was indisputably notable and even if there were nothing even slightly controversial about the edit (theoretically, Jeff could not correct a living person's middle initial). This remedy seems particularly unnecessary given the consensus in the Workshop that Jeff's own editing (as opposed to his position in deletion debates) has never raised any BLP-related issues. Remarkably, the scope of the ban actually exceeds even the most severe of the dozen or so varying remedies proposed against badlydrawnjeff in the otherwise compendious Workshop. I have been on opposite sides from badlydrawnjeff in several of the contested deletion debates that led up to this arbitration case but I am nonetheless extremely uncomfortable with this proposal. Newyorkbrad 04:32, 18 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Agree with Newyorkbrad. In addition to obvious biographies (articles titled as a persons' name), there are plenty of un-obvious ones (articles titled as something else, but that include substantial biographical content). With the current remedy #1, we could talk in terms of percentage of Main space from which Badlydrawnjeff is banned. Combine these two factors with community feeling on this issue, and I fear it will quickly become unrealistic for Badlydrawnjeff to edit anything at all. If I may, I suggest the remedy be drastically reduced in scope to only cover POINT xFDs and DRVs (or POINT participation in such), as that was what lead to this arbitration. — digitaleon • talk @ 09:26, 18 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Jeff has made seemingly-reasonable edits to XfD/DRV as well as some obvious WP:POINT ones. Given that decided what is POINT may be as contentious as the issue itself, and a decision to that effect may only serve to anger him, I suggest that if any remedy is needed, Jeff be barred only from starting DRVs on living persons, which is easier to enforce - see my proposed remedy [1]. The way, the truth, and the light 10:25, 18 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure where such a consensus in the workshop has come from; certainly badlydrawnjeff has made problematic edits in mainspace (e.g. this) as well as the ones in XfDs and such. And yes, the remedy I've proposed is draconian; but, quite honestly, I don't see any other option for a case of this nature. Jeff simply does not get BLP; until he shows some signs of doing so, it would be wildly irresponsible of us to allow him to continue screwing around with those articles. Kirill Lokshin 10:10, 18 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The dispute was never about BLP, as it was, but about the new policy being implemented by some administrators without previous discussion; this has been expressed in the new additions to WP:BLP and WP:NOT. I don't think it's reasonable to blame this on Jeff. The way, the truth, and the light 10:25, 18 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Apparently, my crime for sanctioning is that someone can find one edit that's debatably problematic. Otherwise, this is simply a sanction that a) restricts me for holding an opinion contrary to the people in charge, and b) completly ignores what got us here to begin with. Not that I'm even considering bothering with this project anymore, but this would certainly mean it's not even worth my considering it if I do change my mind. Which, of course, was the point all along. --badlydrawnjeff talk 11:49, 18 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I would have to say that the isssues regarding Badlydrawnjeff are far less about BLP than they are about general disruption of deletions and deletion reviews. I supported a temporary ban on him from deletions and deletion reviews. Wikipedia is not a battleground. The drama he creates with his extreme inclusionism only happens to spill over into BLP.--MONGO 10:31, 18 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by The way, the truth, and the light

This issue isn't about Jeff. It never was. The other side have tried to make it about Jeff to avoid talking about the real issues and intimidate those that disagree. By deliberating leaving deletion criteria vague and attacking anyone that disagrees, they are imposing a new kind of censorship on Wikipedia. Now the standard to not having articles based solely on a brief appearance in the news is reasonable, though one can honestly argue against it; but it is apparent that this new secret standard goes farther in imposing a higher standard of notability on controversial biographies than on normal ones. This means that we will have biographies on semi-notable people except when they are necessarily negative or arguably so, which creates a systemic bias in our coverage.

Specifically, #4 of this proposed decision, about BLP deletions, does not decide anything. It leaves essentially what we have now, which has created this conflict. If there were consensus to delete an article it can be gotten at AfD; doing so after it has been deleted will not be representative. It is therefor not reasonable to insist that out-of-process deletions require consensus to overturn, especially given the difficulty of determining such. Note also that all the articles we have had disputes over have been ones that existed a long time, and one can reasonably suspect that something is wrong if long-standing articles are speedily deleted. Newly created articles can be speedied as usual, but those that have long been a part of Wikipedia should almost always go through AfD. The way, the truth, and the light 10:50, 18 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Request to Digitaleon for clarification

Without commenting on the proposed remedy, I'd like to pick out a sentence used by Digitaleon that puzzles me: I suggest the remedy be drastically reduced in scope to only cover POINT xFDs and DRVs (or POINT participation in such).

I like to think that I'm familiar with the guideline in question, whose full name is Wikipedia:Do not disrupt Wikipedia to illustrate a point, but I don't understand that context in which it's used here. "WP:POINT" is about breaching experiments--disruptive acts that the author carries out, knowing that the consequences will be bad for Wikipedia, but believing that the actions are necessary to show the absurdity of a line of reasoning or a policy.

That doesn't sound like what Jeff has been doing at all. He has certainly believed that his actions are the best thing for Wikipedia as the most direct step available to right a perceived wrong. Such acts are sometimes disruptive especially when pursued to the lengths he is prepared to go to, but I don't think this is in any way a breaching experiment. He wants those discussions and he wants those articles resurrected.

So could you explain what it is about these disruptive acts that makes you describe them as "POINT" acts? Do you just mean disruptive acts concerning the deletion process? --Tony Sidaway 10:35, 18 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I think what he was referring to are comments that are based only on his extreme philosophy and not on the merits of the article. The way, the truth, and the light 10:51, 18 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, that sounds plausible I suppose. To clarify I don't think general philosophical opposition is necessarily bad, and in fact I and many other editors deploy such arguments regularly--not least in my own promotion of a certain view of the biographies of living persons policy in opposition to a more restrictive view. But there's a difference in the tone.

Comments of that type may be disruptive, but I think the reason is because of their vehemence, the assumptions of bad faith he brings with them (at several points in the workshop and in deletion discussions he accused people who disagreed with him of lying), and perhaps as Kirill suggests in his finding of fact and remedy, his irreconcilable opposition to the ethical component of Wikipedia policy. Denying the ethical dimension could perhaps be seen as disruptive if carried to extremes. --Tony Sidaway 11:02, 18 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]