Talk:Crucifixion darkness

Welcome. Tcisco 02:20, 27 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Neutrality

This article is written with a strong presumption that the Biblical three hours of darkness did occur. There is very little criticism of this belief. It's strongly biased towards the conservative Christian view Nik42 04:16, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Historians have relied on biblical and extra-biblical accounts to establish chronologies. This article cites peer reviewed references from both sides of the argument against the three-hour blackout: solar eclipses and lunar eclipses. Tertiary and primary secular accounts from documents that have been judged to be reliable and spurious are consistent with the Synoptic Gospels. Professional astronomers have analyzed those records under the assumptions of reliable and unreliable descriptions. The descriptive aspect of the crucifixion events provided by this article stems from a series of peer reviewed assessments, not biased presumptions.Tcisco 13:12, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Nik needs to learn what "bias" means. This article is about eyewitness accounts of people from the time, their writtings, and writings that directly referred to those writings.. How is that bias or presumption of historical certainty?VP1974 16:56, 4 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The article is written with the assumption that only the accounts that reported a darkness are accurate, and that the lack of an account in other records is a cover-up of some sort. Nik42 19:00, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The so called "cover-ups" took the form of early attempts to attribute the unusual darkness to a solar eclipse. Those accounts and corresponding astronomical papers have been cited in the article. Various explanations for the silence of notable historians were cited. Their silence was not a cover-up, but an abstension from comment. Denying the event is equivalent denying the crucifixion. The lengthy darkness, earthquake, and crucifixion cannot be separated. Secular and biblical records do not support denying the darkness and accepting the crucifixion. And, I have yet to encounter a document that claims the crucifixion transpired without the darkness. A paper was cited that presented a spectacular lunar eclipse as an alternate explanation.

With respect to accuracy, the oldest account happens to be the most comprehensive. The book of Matthew is a primary documented that had been promulgated while eye witnesses were alive to validate it. This fact had been physically evinced in 1994 by scanning LASER microscopes. Matthew was written before 66 A.D. according to analyses of the Magdalen Papyrus, P64 fragments. Matthew's style resembled the shorthand skills of a tachygrapher. He had penned some of the longest versions of Jesus Christ's sermons. Textual analyses point to a Greek document that had been originally completed in Hebrew within five years of the crucifixion. Comparisons between translations of Matthew from various periods of history have consistently yielded a crucifixion darkness of three hours. The oldest descriptions were in Matthew, Mark, and Luke. They consistently claim three hours along with many of the younger, secular, primary documents.

The diverse primary and tertiary documents recorded an incredible event. More recent document hint at similar reoccurrences. They could be rejected like the early accounts of meteors and tornadoes or could be examined for their heliophysical ramifications. Global stellar blackouts may not be beyond the attributes of solar models. Tcisco 06:32, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This article's problems with neutrality arise out of its failure to include the views of objective biblical scholars. The first half of the article simply enumerates sources and presents us with a misplaced section on "time reckoning conventions." The second half then launches into an overlarge section on "crucifixion eclipse models." Missing from all of this is scholarship on the sources themselves. The two-sentence section on "Historicity" does not begin to fulfill this need.

Most scholars of the sources in question do not take the synoptic stories of darkness literally. Instead, they understand these stories as references to "one of the cosmic phenomena often associated with the Day of Yahweh in the Old Testament" (Fitzmyer, "The Gospel According to Luke," p. 1517). In other words, the talk about darkness is one of the means by which the Synoptic authors attempt to associate the passion of Jesus with Old Testament prophecies, and shouldn't be taken as observation-based "on-the-spot reporting" by eyewitnesses (P. Benoit, "Passion and Resurrection," as cited by Fitzmyer. On this see also M. Rese, Alttestaemntliche Motive, and the various sources these scholars cite).

Another point: Luke just talks about the sunlight "failing." That's a pretty vague reference. Could cloud cover, for example, account for a failure of sunlight? Who's to know if we don't cite any good scholarship on the Luke passage in question? And Mark and Matthew just mention unspecified darkness, which could mean almost anything. Even if we're going to be naive and take these sources at their word, it is worth noting how vague our earliest sources for this event are. In neglecting to do so, this article puts the cart before the horse.

I vote for discarding much of the material here, redirecting Crucifixion eclipse to Death and resurrection of Jesus (which already has a more abbreviated discussion of the darkness), and editing the discussion there to include a few brief remarks speculation about the "eclipse," and scholarship surrounding the relevant passages in Mark, Matthew, Luke, and any other ancient sources.

ECKnibbs 13:15, 5 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Astronomical records of the time

The Egyptians and the Greeks were brilliant astronomers and there are no records that support a 3 hour darkness at that time in that region other than Christian texts. Bearing in mind that the New Testament also records that the graves were opened and many saw resurrected saints (again not recorded elsewhere) this article must reflect the fact that the vast majority of academics do not take this as a record of an actual historical event. Currently this article looks like OR mixed with apologetics. Sophia 22:27, 15 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

"Time reckoning conventions" section removed here

I have taken the following text out of the article (formerly the first section). Much of this material is irrelevant to the discussion that follows. Perhaps a small portion of these sentences should be reincorporated later, but for now I think it's less confusing to do without them. In any case, the article should open with a discussion of sources.

Recorded descriptions of the crucifixion eclipse were expressed in terms of the Roman time reckoning system. Judea, like many Mediterranean nations, was under the rule of the Roman Empire at the time of the crucifixion, circa 33. Judeans measured time in terms of the Roman twelve divisions of daylight: hours. (Division of the day into 24 hours is attributed to the Egyptians, specifically the reign of Mentuhotep III.) The first hour occurred at sunrise; the twelfth occurred at sunset; noon, the sixth hour, occurred when the sun reached its highest point in the sky; and the ninth hour corresponded to midway between noon and sunset. The length of an hour would vary with the seasons. It could be twenty minutes during the winter and ninety minutes in the summer. It was close to sixty minutes during the crucifixion, which was either Nisan 14 or 15. According to Duncan (1998, p. 48), the Roman soldiers announced the third hour of the morning (tertia hora), the sixth of midday (sexta hora), and the ninth of the afternoon (nona hora). Biblical and extra-biblical records indicate the darkness commenced when the Sun was at zenith, the sixth hour, and radiance resumed when the sun was approximately forty-five degrees above the horizon, the ninth hour.

Witnesses of the crucifixion darkness could distinguish between short and long events. Ancient cultures tracked the passage of time by pointing to specific positions of the sun in the sky (Aveni, 1995, 90-92). The witnesses did not need a sundial or hourglass to know when the sixth and ninth hours had occurred. Praying at three-hour intervals was an old Jewish practice (Richards, 1998, p. 44).

ECKnibbs 14:07, 5 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Scholars that classify descriptions of the crucifixion darkness as symbolic expressions either neglect or fail to satisfactorily account for the ability of technologically primitive writers to reliably describe the duration of phenomena. Time reckoning conventions verify the fact that mankind, for centuries before the invention of mechanical clocks, could distinguish between a few minutes and a few hours. Details about ancient battles have stemmed from good faith in the authors' ability to provide an accurate description. The documents cited by F. R. Stephenson's work are consistent with those of the crucifixion eclipse. Arguments that such accounts are delusional or symbolic are interesting, but should not be used to obscure established facts. Time reckoning ability of the ancients is a fact. One that should not be taken lightly. If a writer of such accounts has a reputation for integrity, time reckoning should be incorporated with the problem of explaining the phenomena.

The time reckoning section should have been discussed prior to its removal. It stemmed from several tertiary writings that had been appropriately cited. Such actions are not the product of Wikipedia's good faith recommendation for edits and serve to evince vandalism. Tcisco 14:32, 7 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

There are no Wikipedia policies, as far as I know, that require discussion before changes can be made to articles. My edits were indeed made in good faith, and were not intended to do damage to the content of the article or otherwise vandalize it.

As stated above, I think that the "time reckoning" section needed to be removed because its relationship to the rest of the article was unclear. At most, readers may require some brief explanatory remarks so that they can make sense of biblical references to the "sixth hour" and the "ninth hour". But these remarks should come after or alongside the citations of the synoptic texts, perhaps as a brief parenthetical remark or even as a footnote. Otherwise the material is confusing and even disorienting.

You write that those who "classify descriptions of the crucifixion darkness as symbolic expressions...neglect or fail to satisfactorily account for the ability of technologically primitive writers to reliably describe the duration of phenomena." Most scholars (including the very standard Anchor Bible commentary that I cited above) appear to interpret the talk of "darkness" in the Synoptic Gospels as something other than a reliable account of an actual event. Whatever our personal views may be, Wikipedia should make the scholarly consensus clear and properly emphasize this consensus. That is, after all, the purpose of an encyclopedia.

But I also think your argument is unreasonable. Scholars who say that the references to "darkness" are symbolic are implying absolutely nothing about the ability of "technologically primitive writers" to "describe the duration of phenomena." Instead, they doubt that it was necessarily the sole intent of these authors to provide accurate descriptions of phenomena. They suspect that some of the stories told by these texts are better understood as symbolic references, rather than literal descriptions of actual events.

ECKnibbs 15:25, 7 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Bouw sunspots

I have removed the following text from the article. The relationship of all of this material to the topic of the article appears to be original research. The only secondary source cited that supports the relationship of sunspots to the Crucifixion eclipse is Bouw, and, as the article admits, what Bouw says is only a "suggestion," offered without "any arguments in support." Reason enough to remove, I think.

Gerardus D. Bouw (1998) had proposed, with skepticism, global sunspots as an explanation for the crucifixion blackout. His deduction was offered as a last resort after comparing other models with the criteria presented by biblical and extra-biblical texts. He did not offer any arguments in support of his suggestion.

The Sun is not the only star to have a record of severe dimming. Other stars with starspots covering over half of their surfaces have been observed. For example, two stars with mega-spots were Lambda Andromedae (Magnetic Field, 1983) and the K0 spectral class giant star XX Triangulum (HD 12545) (Pilachowski, 1999). Vogt, Hatzes, Misch, and Kurster (1997) studied the behavior of the large polar spot on the RS CVn star HR 1099. It had persisted for eleven years. Those celestial objects normally belong to a stellar classification that excluded the Sun.

Seismic triggers During the darkness, an unusual earthquake hit the area. Its shock waves caused rocks to split without collapsing the entire city. The great veil in the temple was split from top to bottom. That phenomenon slightly resembled the snapped off tops of trees that had been caused by the violent concussive ground motions at the epicenter of the Alaskan earthquake of 1964. The tearing mechanism applied against the great curtain was very localized – it did not destroy the temple. The veil of the Temple was “60 feet long, 30 feet high, and about 4 inches thick; composed of 72 squares sewn together; so heavy it required 300 men to lift it” (DeLashmutt, 2005). And, selective graves were uncovered by the peculiar quake (Matthews 27:51-53). All of these occurred during the three hours of darkness.

The peculiar crucifixion earthquake may be an essential product of the solar darkening mechanism. Researchers have found correlations between a set of great earthquakes and the geomagnetic storms that have been caused by solar activity such as sunspots (Mazazarella and Palumbo, 1988; Palumbo, 1989; Shatashvili, Sikharulidze, and Khazaradze, 2000; Mukherjee and Mukherjee, 2002; Mukherjee, 2003; Mukherjee and Körtvélyessy, 2005). Sunspots are regions of the photosphere that have been slightly darkened by very strong magnetic storms.

Animal behavior The unusual behavior of the birds during the solar blackout of June 3, 1239 could be a clue for the nature of the solar darkening mechanism. Wide varieties of animals and plants have displayed their reactions to small variations in the strength and direction of magnetic fields (Winklhofer, 2005; Walker, Dennis, & Kirschvink, 2002; Muheim, 2001; Kirschvink, Walker, & Diebel, 2001; Lohmann, Hester, & Lohmann, 1999). Magnetoreceptors have been identified in the beaks of homing pigeons (Fleissner, et al., 2003). Geomagnetic fluctuations induced by the Sun may have disoriented the birds during the blackout of the third of June. A global magnetic storm on the Sun may have been the darkening mechanism.

Christian eschatological applications According to Lockyear (1961, p. 243) "Such darkening of the Sun was an earnest of 'the great and terrible day of the Lord' ((Joel 2:31, 32)." The Day of the Lord is an eschatological period of wrath that has been described by such biblical passages as Amos 5:18 and Zephaniah 1:14-18 and that was to be ushered in by a solar blackout and lunar reddening (Acts 2:20-21; Revelation 6:12). Heliophysical explanations of the Bouw global sunspots may be applicable to the solar and lunar blackout associated with the second coming of Jesus Christ (Matthew 24:29-30; Mark 13:24-26; Luke 21:25-28). But, the Bouw model would have to be modified to explain the lunar red glow associated with the solar blackout described in Joel 2:31; Acts 2:20; and the sixth seal events of the Book of Revelation:

And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood (Revelation 6:12).
For example, the onset of the global sunspot storm generates heliomagnetic disturbances that trigger earthquakes. As the sunspot storms rapidly reach totality, the emission of visible light by the photosphere would be severely reduced. The strength and structure of the magnetic storms would transform the surface of the photosphere from granular to woven. Hughes, Paczuski, Dendy, Helander, and McClements (2002) had proposed a magnetic carpet as a model of the photospheric magnetic fields. Their computational modeling treated the stability of random distributions of magnetic loops as products of self-organized criticality. A crisscross arrangement of magnetic flux tubes may yield greater stability and strength than a random and/or parallel distribution of bands.
The global solar storm intensifies the density and speed of Solar Energetic Particles (SEP). SEP bombardment of the Moon would cause its surface to luminesce in red. Kopal and Rackham (1963) and Sekiguchi (1977) have recorded red, wide area lunar luminescences. They were too weak to be seen by the naked eye, but could serve as a precedent for the Moon glowing deep red during the sixth seal solar blackout. Kopal's and Rackham's work, like other astronomers, examined the luminescence role of solar activity. Lunar luminescence is one of the mechanisms of lunar transient phenomena. Transient lunar phenomenon went from fringe science to mainstream in 1963 (Greenacre 1963; Ley 1965; Cameron 1978).
Several observations have recorded the emission of coronal mass ejections in the absence of solar flares (Reames, 1995a, 1995b, & Reames, Tylka & Ng, 2001). Bright solar flares have not been the sole source of CME’s. Subsequently, the darkened Sun of Revelation 6:12 will be able to produce an intensified SEP flux.
Totality will be long enough for global populations to seek shelter beneath cliffs and within underground dens (Revelation 6:15). Causes for the world wide migrations and physical phenomena described by Revelation 6:12-15 can be explained by heliophysical applications of Bouw's global sunspot model.

The explanations may seem to be farfetched, but the seismic disruptions and red irradiance of the Moon are consistent with Heliophysical phenomena. Irregular variable stars and mega starspots are an established reality. These can promote an understanding of the mechanisms that had caused past and prophesied solar blackouts. And, the Bouw model is consistent with the pre-tribulation and premillenial theology within Christian eschatology.

ECKnibbs 20:25, 5 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

A couple of physical explanations for the crucifixion darkness have been published. The article provided a survey with ramifications.

I excluded that one the explanation that argued the entire path of the Moon's shadow could account for the three hours. It was inconsistent with texts of a stationary observer. The article tried to be loyal to specifics provided by the writers.

Even though the rigor of Barbiero's formalism can be disputed, I included Dodd's application of Barbiero's work as an explanation for the crucifixion darkness. It represented an attempted to apply a few principles of rigid body motion.

The article by Gerardus D. Bouw appeared in The Biblical Astronomer, a journal that supports geocentricity. Such a publication may or may not satisfy Wikipedia's criteria for reliable resources. I am not aware of a list by Wikipedia of unreliable journals. Bouw offered a collection of possible explanations in the "Summary and Conclusion" section of his review biblical and extra-biblical writings. They were presented to explain the physical interpretation of historical documents about the crucifixion darkness. The last one in the set was the sun becoming one huge sunspot. My inclusion of material following his seemingly preposterous suggestion was offered to provoke "out-of-box" thinking via its ramifications. I believe one of the goals of Wikipedia is to stimulate creative thinking and research. Severe, photospheric disturbances should not be discarded. Recent research has isolated strong correlations between the position of the Earth relative to a group of sunspots and seismic activity. Biologists have found correlations between animal behavior and geomagnetic fluctuations. Those facts illustrate the ramifications of Bouw's suggestion and could be used to evince other explanations. In Christian eschatology, rogue stars and bodies of dark matter have been offered as explanations for the prediction of solar darkening appearing in the Book of Revelation. Those perturbations may disburbe the photosphere in a manner to cause the magnetic effects. I did not include those citations because they did not specifically address the crucifixion darkness. Tcisco 15:09, 7 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia is a reference encyclopedia; its goal is not to "provoke out-of-box thinking," but to provide information about noteworthy things, ideas, and people, consistent with scholarly consensus and reliable sources. Wikipedia is not the place for essays, original research, and related material.

ECKnibbs 15:34, 7 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Is the title appropriate?

Sorry for yet another post, but it is also worth considering whether the title of this article is appropriate. Despite the reference to "eclipse" in the title, most of the material that the article cites seems devoted to explaining that an eclipse cannot have been the cause of the darkness.

If the term "Crucifixion eclipse" were a commonly used terminus technicus to describe the darkness associated with Jesus' crucifixion, then it might be justified. But in fact I can find no evidence that this is so. A Google search for the term "Crucifixion eclipse," minus "Wikipedia," turns up only a little over 50 hits. Among these are two or three articles by astronomers and one or two devotional websites; the rest appear to be from Wikipedia mirror sites, and references to this article.

ECKnibbs 04:44, 6 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The title represents the difficulties astonomers have had with providing a physical explanation for the historical accounts. Tcisco 15:19, 7 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

And how does it represent these "difficulties"? All the material in the article seems devoted to saying that what happened was not an eclipse. Won't that confuse readers? And how is it an appropriate title if it does not even appear to be a standard means of referring to the subject?

ECKnibbs 15:28, 7 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Proposal to remove "Sudden noon sunset" section

This section is all based upon a monograph by someone named Dodd, available online at a Christian website. In the first place, I have looked at this source and on p. 103 (the cited page) I can find no reference to asteroids striking the earth or anything remotely related. Even if that material is buried in this text somewhere, I submit that the "Sudden noon sunset" is an exceptional claim that requires exceptional sources (as per WP:Reliable sources). Dodd's monograph appears not to be a reliable source in the first place.

ECKnibbs 05:54, 6 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed - there is very little astrophysical sense to be had in this article. Sophia 06:44, 6 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I've taken it out. Here's the removed text, for reference:

Dodds (2003, p. 103) tried to explain the crucifixion blackout in terms of the Sun rapidly dropping beneath the horizon. He asserted a collision with an asteroid caused the axis of the Earth to temporarily tilt. The strength of his argument stemmed from an explanation by Flavio Barbiero for the disaster at the end of the Pleistocene era (Dodds). Barbiero’s analyses were based on a twenty degree shift in the rotational axis. But, a shift of ninety degrees would have been necessary for the crucifixion darkness. The Sun would have to be concealed by the horizon to provide the described level of darkness. The tilt would have had to rapidly transpire. Neither biblical nor extra-biblical accounts had described sharp movements of the Sun. A ninety degree precession in the Earth’s axis, transpiring within seconds, would have caused global floods, tremendous wind shears, and gigantic scaring by the heat of friction. Neither geophysical evidence nor historical records support this model.

ECKnibbs 16:34, 6 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The goal of the article was to provide survey of published physical explanations for the crucifixion darkness. Even though the rigor of Barbiero's formalism can be disputed, I included Dodd's application of Barbiero's work as an explanation for the crucifixion darkness. It represented an attempted to apply a few principles of rigid body motion to a semifluid gyroscoptic model of the Earth. I do not know what its ranking would be on a pseudoscience scale. Tcisco 15:27, 7 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The point is that Dodds does not appear to meet Wikipedia reliable source standards, and so he cannot be used in this article. The entire section on "sudden noon sunset" is thus without a reliable source, and so I removed it.

ECKnibbs 16:01, 7 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]