Talk:Taoism

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To be merged

I took this text on Eastern philosophy because I think this level of detail belongs to [[Taoism] main article:

Taoism's central books are the Tao Te Ching and the Chuang Tzu (Zhuangzi). Tradition had it that the Tao Te Ching of Lao Tzu (Laozi) dates to approximately 600 BCE. Recent archeological finds have reinforced the scholarly argument that it was still being shaped around or after the time of Chuang Tzu (Zhuangzi). The core concepts themselves may be much more ancient, incorporating elements of mysticism dating back to prehistoric times.

The traditional story: The Tao Te Ching was written by Lao Zi (Wade-Giles, Lao tse), a minor Chinese court official (and, according to Taoist legend, teacher to Confucius) who became tired of the petty intrigues of court life, and set off to leave China by the "Western Pass". He was stopped by a "keeper of the pass" who, noting that valuable wisdom should not be taken away, required Laozi to put his tao into words -- whereupon Laozi quickly jotted down the 5000 characters that make up the Tao Te Ching (which actually contains about twice that).

His Taoism (interpreted by some as a version of quietism) involved a slogan often translated (obscurely) as "action through inaction", wu wei. The "wu" is not problematic -- it's just "lack" or "absence." But "wei" has a cluster of meanings, including "for the sake of", "doing", and "regarding or deeming as." (A cognate wei means "to call or designate", and another works like the linking verb "is.") We can speculate that the whole idea suggests no actions generated by concepts. The closest familiar Western idea would be something like non-deliberative or sub-conscious action. This produces the familiar gloss in interpretations that one should effect changes subtly and without disrupting the natural flow of the universe, rather than by attempting to force change according to some conceptual norms (a for the sake of).

A related core structural feature is the argumentative reliance on the dualism of concepts (names). All terms are discussed as paired with their opposites and rather than a model where names refer to objects, the text hints that the complementary concepts (names) map onto distinctions that we can draw in reality. (Mastery of language consists in correctly being able to distinguish using the names). Laozi links this learned capacity to learned (hence unnatural) desires which, in turn, lead to wei--action informed by names, learned patterns of discrimination, and associated desires.

The most famous example of this dualism is one only briefly hinted at in the text but which becomes dominant in the Han (220 BC-3rd centry AD) is the yin-yang dualism that dominated the cosmology of the traditional China. These symbolize the divisions of light and dark, male and female,hot and cool, dominant and submissive, upper and lower, stiff and yielding, hard and soft, active and passive etc. Where Confucianism "favors" the "good" yang, Daoism sees them as interdependent. One half is no better than the other, and indeed, neither can exist without the other, since each contains a small amount of the other. Ultimately, both are the same thing -- the great ultimate which a tao "carves" into two to guide action in some WAY. (The concrete -- pun intended -- translation of dao is "road".)

Some time after the publication of the Tao Te Ching and another work by Zhuang zi (Wade-Giles, Chuang tse), Taoism developed its religious aspect, especially among the Chinese peasantry. Lao Zi and other famous personas were elevated to deity status among followers, and complex religious rituals involving alchemy, magic spells and symbology began to be practiced.

I will try to merge this in the article. gbog 16:18, 1 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Sacred Sites

Could someone please include a section on the Sacred sites in this religion please. Just a suggestion, but it could be useful.

discrepancies

A: The depiction of the Tai Chi is incorrect, it should be facing so that tha tails of the yin and the yang point with the little end counter clockwise of the big end. (I hope that was descriptive enough). Yin should be on bottom (preferably). Which Way Taichi similar link, only posted in case previous link fails Basically the reasoning can be boiled down to the direction the Chinese compass points (down) and the way the seasons flow. It can be argues that Yin on top is okay in America considering our compasses point up (i.e., away from the viewer). By having the tails point the way they do, however, makes the assumtion that Spring follows after Summer, the dragon is in the West, and that West is the direction of metal (an the dozens of other things mapped onto the Taichi).

B: Additionally I thought I'd comment on the spelling problem. I believe the NPOV clearly states that personal opinion doesn't matter. A simple google search will tell you which is more common (by a landslide). Dustin Asby 23:43, 15 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Agreed. I call myself a "Daoist" and consider "Daoism" to be the more accurate term, but at the moment, "Taoism" is better-established and more recognizable. Remember wu-wei -- if "Daoism" is truly the better term (as I think it is), it will eventually exceed "Taoism" in usage on its own, and then we can change the Wiki usage without controversy. Until then, I think we should accept the current usage. A bunch of Daoists/Taoists trying to force change seems kind of silly to me. --Nat 02:52, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Some notes

I was under the impression that wu wei was a Zen concept, but I'm most likely wrong. More important, however, is that we have an article on a religion/philosophy that mentions a belief in God without elaborating on Taoism's apparent theism. Of course, I could be limited by my Western concepts. -- Kizor 22:45, 7 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Do you mean God or god? Isn't the term God restricted to Christianity? If yes, how is the topic of God fit in a taoism article? Kowloonese 00:13, Jan 8, 2005 (UTC)

I think God in capitals can be used to refer to anything of the Supreme Being/Alpha and Omega/He That Is variety. -- Kizor 02:32, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I trust both of you will restrain yourself from making any contribution to the article as a result of this demonstration that you know absolutely nothing about the subject matter. -- Steven Zenith 05:05, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Taoism the religion

The biggest problem with this article is that it places the emphasis of Taoism on the philosophy, something the West seems to adore. However, in modern China (PRC, Hong Kong, Taiwan), the expression of Taoism the religion is much, much more prevalent. Unless anyone has any objections, I'm going to update the religion section a bit more and put in a few pictures.

What you are proposing would be a valuable addition to the article, IMO. Sunray 19:36, 2005 Jan 30 (UTC)

Society's artifical values

"Desire created through the influence of society's artificial values hinders one's ability to understand The Way"

This is in the current revision of the article. I am not an expert in Taoism, although I have read quite a bit on it, and I'm not sure why we would locate detrimental desire in society. My impression has always been that desire, per se, clouds one's understanding of the way.

I will plan to change this, unless we can hash this out here. And, of course, I would much prefer to hash it out here. --Enkrates 00:36, Apr 7, 2005 (UTC)

It seems to me that it is a central theme of Taoism that Tao is strongly present in nature and obscured in human society. As Paul Halsall puts it: "There is a common disapproval of the unnatural and artificial. Social convention is rejected in favour of the ecstatic and the immediate nature of experience"[1]

What is the origin of desire, if not society? Sunray 08:21, 2005 Apr 7 (UTC)

After spending some time with the texts, I think I got some buddhism in my Tao. I retract my criticism. :) --Enkrates 20:27, Apr 7, 2005 (UTC)

The Tao-te Ching advocates detachment. This quote might be helpful.

• "A sage can have things without feeling they "own" them. The sage does things without putting an emotional stake into the outcome. The task is accomplished, but the Sage doesn't seek credit or take pride in the accomplishment. Because the Sage is not attached to the accomplishment, the accomplishment lasts forever." Apollomelos 09:16, 14 May 2005 (UTC)

Brilliant! Thanks. Sunray 16:25, 2005 May 14 (UTC)

Taoism as state religion

I'm surprised with the recent editions of this article : Taoism was a state religion in China from Tang to Qing ??? Most Chinese are Taoist ??? Please add some references, instead I would see myself in the obligation of removing a lot of those. gbog 04:52, 2005 May 15 (UTC)

• "Many Western scholars believe that Daoism is still a strong force among the Chinese people, especially in rural areas." - MSN Encarta

• "The end of the Ch'ing dynasty in 1911 brought about the end of state support for Taoism." - University of Virginia

• "Taoism started as a combination of psychology and philosophy but evolved into a religious faith in 440 CE when it was adopted as a state religion." - Religious Tolerance

Links to the information are provided on the article's page under references. Hope this helps. Apollomelos 13:56, 15 May 2005 (UTC)

Well erh... I'm still not fully contended with the intro of the article : in reading those few sentences, a reader could believe that 1) Lao-tseu did exist (what is far from proven), 2) Lao-tseu did "found" a religion (what sounds weird), 3) Taoism was the accepted state-religion in China from Tang to Qing (was is obviously false) and 3) that Confucianism is also a religion (was is debatable). I'd try to tune this a bit. gbog 05:04, 2005 May 19 (UTC)

I've revised the lead paragraph. I had also been troubled by the wording "Laozi, a philosopher of Honan, founded it..." I have modified the wording about "state religion" to recognize your point and, also, changed the wording with respect to describing Confucianism as a religion (though I'm not wild about the phrase "religio-philosophic"). Perhaps we can do better than that, but I can't think of anything now. Sunray 05:56, 2005 May 19 (UTC)

It's better like this but I steel feel a kind of disappointement... I worked earlier on another version of article that seems to me to be a little better if not as deeply developped : http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Taoism&oldid=12190387 . No time for now to compare in details but the intro, while shorter, is closer to what I would expect for an encyclopedia. gbog 07:56, 2005 May 23 (UTC)

I just re-read the earlier version you refer to above. You are right. It is better! Sunray 07:36, 2005 Jun 5 (UTC)

This article is aweful. Apparently, from the above, none of the contributors so far are in any sense qualified to contribute to this article. Taoism does require a contribution that covers the philosophy, the personalities, the chinese religion and the history of it, the contemporary forms and the new orders. I suggest you invite Chad Hansen at Hong Kong University to contribute (Google him) or invite the Taoist crew in alt.philosophy.taoism to have a go (Matt or Lisa might like to take a stab). In the meantime try a simple statement of the facts and stay away from interpretation. - how hard is that? -- Steven Zenith 05:13, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Steve: Since this is a wiki, anyone can contribute. People help out as they are inclined. Go ahead and contact the folks you mention above. I think we all agree that the quality can be improved greatly. Sunray 16:45, 2005 Jun 2 (UTC)

I'd have to agree with Steven Zenith on this. He is actually one of the very few who is qualified to contribute, and his recommendation of Chad Hansen is good.

Dates (eras) in this article

Jguk just reverted and changed the dates in this article to BC/AD (they were a mix of BCE/CE and BC/AD previously).

Wikipedia guidelines are clear on the use of Eras in articles:

Both the BCE/CE era names and the BC/AD era names are acceptable, but be consistent within an article. Normally you should use plain numbers for years in the Common Era, but when events span the start of the Common Era, use AD or CE for the date at the end of the range (note that AD precedes the date and CE follows it). For example, 1 BC–AD 1 or 1 BCE–1 CE.

It is up to the author(s) of an article to determine the dating system to be used and there must be consistency with each article. In this case, for a non-Christian topic in a non-Christian region of the world, BCE/CE appears to make the most sense. However, it is advisable to get consensus on this talk page before proceeding to make wholesale changes to the dating of eras. Comments? Sunray 16:53, 2005 Jun 2 (UTC)

I see that an anon editor has changed the dates in the first part of the article back to BCE/CE. To avoid any possibility of a "revert war" over eras (as has happened recently with respect to articles on Persia, believe it or not), it would be great if people who are contributing to this article could establish a consensus on what dating system we will use for this and other articles on Taoism. Note that there is currently a mix of BCE/CE and BC/AD in this article (though other articles on Taoist subjects use BCE/CE exclusively). Sunray 18:59, 2005 Jun 4 (UTC)

I would prefer BCE/CE. gbog 04:35, 2005 Jun 5 (UTC) (Personnal note, to be deleted after being read : "Btw, thanks Sunray for yor tireless and highly helpfull corrections of my poor English. I have also edited related Wu wei and Tao")

Thanks, it is my pleasure. Sunray 08:03, 2005 Jun 5 (UTC)