Talk:The Bourne Ultimatum (film)

Final Scene

The final scene in the film is not part of the Bourne Supremacy. If you watch the film closely, Pamela and Jason are having a conversation on phone. While this is happening, a discovery is made--which is the audio file of the final conversation between Pamela and Jason. Pamela and Jason's conversation pertains to Jason getting Pamela out of the office and into an open area.

To summarize the time frame. Jason calls Pamela after he is paged in the airport and taken via taxi cab to just outside the Headquarters. There conversation consists of Jason telling Pamela to meet him in that area.

While this conversation is happening, one of the Director's staff finds the audio clip of the phone conversation between Jason and Pamela from Bourne Supremacy. The film then cuts to the clips from the movie to give you a reference point. Following this, the Director makes the call to have Pamela followed.

So, the clip showing scenes of Bourne Supremacy do not equate to being part of the same time line. It is just a flashback. rpresley 12:01, 4 Aug 2007 (Eastern)

Then why does the movie begin in Moscow? It seems to me that the Moscow to New York transition is the whole twist of the movie.

I don't remember any of the above conversations happening in the film. They say specifically that Jason is looking right at her and he is within 1000 yards/meters of the building. It started in moscow because there was a shootout at the beginning and Bourne was framed for the crime

I disagree. I think it's clear that the conversation between Landy and Bourne at the end of the Supremacy and near the end of Ultimatum are one and the same. The timeline weaves between the two movies, but it is entirely consistent. In Supremacy, the viewer has no idea what happens between the car crash in Moscow and the conversation in the final scene with Landy (other than the apology to the Russian woman). That gap is filled by almost the full length of Ultimatum. Ultimatum begins immediately following the car crash in Supremacy, with Bourne evading the Moscow police. Then the majority of Ultimatum describes the events that eventually bring Bourne back to the states, (omitting the apology, because that would give away the twist), where he has the conversation with Landy, filling the gap. Ultimatum then continues the timeline from where Supremacy left off. This is why the two conversations are identical, word for word. Also, when the CIA hears the conversation between Bourne and Landy, it's in real time, and not a recording of something that has already happened; because she is not on board with killing Bourne, they are explicitly told to "keep an eye" on her, which would include monitoring her cell usage. Basically, it's a huge, awesome mindfuck. 69.232.159.127 19:34, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

rpresley, you couldn't be more wrong. There was never a conversation where they talked about meeting... the meeting was setup by a text message from Bourne. Landy didn't know it was fake, and I also don't think she knew she was under surveillance - at least until she arrived. Riskbreaker927 13:45, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Maybe I'm not clear in what I am saying. If you watch Bourne Supremacy, the final scene there has Pamela and Jason talking. In it, she reveals his real name and DOB.

In Bourne Ultimatum, the organization she is with discovers a file audio clip of that very same conversation. What fools many of you is that while this discovery occurs, they are showing an actual conversation between Bourne and Landy.

Two conversations. 1 is from Bourne Supremacy and the other Bourne Ultimatum.

1 is from Supremacy that is Audio File discovered by the organization: You're real name is David Webb. DOB is...

The other from Ultimatum: Bourne tells her to meet her in the square. That is why she keeps asking Jason. Why else would she go outside? She was told by Jason to go somewhere. She didn't just pick a random spot some distance away from HQ and knew that the organization would tail her so that Jason could get in. If she did, she knew more than anyone in that organization and knew Jason's moves even before Jason.

It is coincidental that the Organization discovers the old conversation at the same time Bourne calls Landy with an entirely new conversation. If anything, Bourne taped it and sent it to her. They are not the same conversations nor are they happening at the same time of events in Bourne Supremacy.

Again. Let me reiterate one more time. They interweave the conversations. There is one from Supremacy and one from Ultimatum. The one from Supremacy is discovered in an audio file. It is a replay. It is not happening at the same time as the events in Ultimatum. They discover it at the same time she gets a conversation.

She was not under surveillance until they discovered the old audio conversation.

[User:Rpresley|Rpresley]] 13:45, 5 August 2007 (EAS)

Rpresley, sorry, but I think you're mistaken. I watched Supremacy, then immediately went to see Ultimatum (for the 2nd time). The conversations are one and the same, verbatim, including the fake DOB. Landy has no idea what Bourne's plans are, and she doesn't intentionally draw the rest of the CIA away from the office. She goes outside where Jason can see her, and he then sees that she's being tailed, and he takes advantage of it by texting her to a fake meeting point, drawing the tails with her. It's clear from all three movies that Bourne is a total badass that pull everyone's strings without their knowing it, and it's ridiculous to think that she would know what Bourne was doing before he did himself. I recommend watching both Supremacy and Ultimatum again. If you still think they're different conversations, then you're completely missing out one of the coolest, most original twists in movie history. 65.173.1.36 17:43, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, but you are wrong. If they are one in the same conversation (meaning the final conversation Bourne has with Pamela at the end of Supremacy is the exact same one happening in real time in sequence with the events of Ultimatum) then you have to disregard the facts that Bourne knows his real name in Ultimatum prior to that phone call. So yes. I'm wrong. But only if you forget the fact that he knows he's David Webb prior to when that scene occurs in Ultimatum. Either that was the biggest goof in the entire movie, or I'm right, and that the CIA is playing an audio clip they found of Pamela with the conversationfrom the end of the 2nd movie while Pamela is having a conversation with Bourne about her getting him to meet..[User:rpresley]

Rpresley, I've seen Ultimatum twice now, and I can't recall anything that implies that Jason Bourne knows his real name prior to the conversation with Landy. I may be mistaken, but I don't believe his real name is mentioned in any of the flashbacks of the training facility, nor in any conversation with Nicky or the reporter. What makes you think he knows he's David Webb during Ultimatum? If your answer is "Because Landy told him at the end of Supremacy," then your logic is circular. Also, all the other flashbacks in Ultimatum are clearly shot in a different style, all blurred and choppily edited with distant, echoey sounding audio, yet the conversation between Landy and Bourne is shot completely straight. Why wouldn't the director use the same flashback effect if he meant to convey that the conversation was a flashback? Also, when Bourne tells Pam "You look tired," Vosen realizes that Bourne is nearby (within a few blocks) and and immediately orders the CIA to sweep the immediate area. Why would he do that if he had heard a recording of a months-old conversation? 65.173.1.36 17:43, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

It was my understanding that Landy re-initiated the conversation from the end of Supremacy in order to tip Bourne off that she would help him. However, if she gave the same DOB as she did in Supremacy, then it doesn't make sense. Either hypothesis has big holes. Mcr29 04:09, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

I just went to see Ultimatum tonight and I strongly believe that the conversation at the end of Supremacy is supposed to be the exact same conversation that is in Ultimatum, at the same time. Think about it, in order for them to be separate events, he would have gone from Moscow to New York and then back to Moscow again were he was again shot in the same shoulder and on the run from the cops. When I saw the first scene of Ultimatum I thought "That's weird, he is back in Moscow with the same bullet wound and a limp again." Didn't really think about it again until I saw it on here. But the conversations are word for word (same DOB), same background images (same building and flag), same cellphone. I thought they might have slipped up with what he used to spy on her with but they didn't show that part in Supremacy. The part after that in Supremacy where he is walking on the street might different from Ultimatum, but I would have to watch it again to make sure it isn't showing him walking to the CIA office. So yes, Bourne wouldn't have known his real name in Ultimatum until that point, unless someone else (Nicky or someone in the flashbacks) said it to him. They may have even used the same film for it unless they reshot it to get better camera angles. The scene in Ultimatum showing them listening in is not an audio file as she was already under surveillance. 64.113.86.234 06:56, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Yes, the ending of Supremacy is the same as that scene. Ultimatum begins before the end of Supremacy. All the events before Ultimatum's conversation occur between Supremacy's Moscow car chase and the end of the second movie. Even the article's plot summary states that the story begins in medias es. Msahimi 08:34, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

If the conversations are one in the same, and Bourne knew nothing of his true identity prior to the conversation, how did he know the DOB she gave him was false? Mcr29 17:38, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Also, when Bourne says he has tried to apologize for the things he's done, I took that to mean/include the confession to the Neski girl. Mcr29 17:42, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

The movie shows the 415 written on the building and the sign for 71st street in his flashbacks, before the conversation. Maybe his memory was triggered when she mentioned it explicitly. Also, he obtained the Blackbriar files, which probably contain the address. 65.173.1.36 17:43, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Just to finish this off, they are the same conversation. Supremacy jumps from Moscow to New York. Ultimatum fills in the gap between Moscow and New York. If they are two different conversations, this is what would have to happen: Bourne goes to Moscow, then New York, then Moscow, then New York, then they have the exact same conversation as before. Has anyone ever heard of Occam's razor? You would if you had been watching Eureka like you should. The simplest explanation is usually correct. ColdFusion650 20:29, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

The clever twist is how we were all mislead at the end of supremacy with that end scene and how critical context is. I juts saw it, and there isn't even a hint that the two are the same exact scene and time frame. He probably is aware that something is wrong from the tone of her voice and the substance of the conversation. He can probably figure out the birthday isn't his. Perhaps he's seen the address before, or it just seems very familiar to him. The idea they are pulling up an old conversation and then acting on it seems to be a huge red herring. When it come out on DVD I expect people will stop voicing this mis interpretation of the scene. Just think about it. Would a writer want to construct a great twisting mind fuck, or would they want to construct some odd plot device like pulling up an old conversation which oddly is immediately useful but they just happened not think of it before etc..

Redirect

how come i can't get to the book's page o_o 71.86.66.86 11:52, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Still can't get to the book page... Do I need to delete the redirect? 76.20.216.51 22:26, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Yes, you probably should delete the redirect.Jared Meijin 02:30, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

I edited the book page and the redirect. Now, everything is fine. Ken Bruce 04:08, June 6 2007 (UTC)

Lets hold off on the best movie ever on the page until it comes out at least.

Rating

What is the rating of The Bourne Ultimatum?? -- Template:The Chronicles of Ratman

It wouldn't have been classified yet. -- KTC 15:13, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

The movie is coming out in a month but it is still not rated Rush Hour 3 is coming out later and is already rated. I have a feeling The Bourne Ultimatum is going to be rated R. thechroniclesofratman

Just like the other two, it's PG13. An R rating would've seriously restricted the potential audience. Cliff smith 20:30, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Plot summary

It could use some cleaning up. A lot, actually. I tried my best with one of the first few paragraphs but the rest of it needs a lot more work. In fact, some parts are just plain wrong - Bourne didn't "lose his memory" at the training facility, he lost it on a boat in the Marseille sea. Riskbreaker927 13:30, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

It needs to be shorter too. It's at about 1,600 words right now, and WP:FILMS prescribes 900 at most, but with a few exceptions. Once the hype dies down, we can really begin summarizing it. Cliff smith 21:18, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Same coffee shop?

My memory of it is shaky, and maybe the geography couldn't possibly work out, AND it's been a while since I've seen Identity...but wasn't the coffee shop where Bourne and Nicky stopped in Ultimatum (when Bourne asks Nicky why she's helping him) the same as the one he stopped at with Marie in Identity (where he made the "catching the sightlines and looking for an exit" speech)? If so, that should obviously go in the "References to Previous Films" section. But it's probably not. Anyone want to confirm/deny this? 70.187.178.134 11:01, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Response Section

For the response section, shouldn't we use a more well-known and credible source such as Ebert and Roeper? Not that it matters much, but RottenTomatoes.com just doesn't have that official ring to it. --D 12:41, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Rottentomatoes is a credible summary of responses. It would be fine to have specific comments from individual reviewers, but only including that without aggregate data could easily give misperceptions of true response to a film. When it comes to aggregate data on movie reviews, there is probably nothing more official than rottentomatoes.Gwynand 14:10, 6 August 2007 (UTC)