Talk:2007 Greek forest fires

Please add {{WikiProject banner shell}} to this page and add the quality rating to that template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.

Greece Start‑class Mid‑importance

	Greece portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Greece, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Greece on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.GreeceWikipedia:WikiProject GreeceTemplate:WikiProject GreeceGreek articles
Start	This article has been rated as Start-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale.
Mid	This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

Disaster management Unassessed

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Disaster management, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Disaster management on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Disaster managementWikipedia:WikiProject Disaster managementTemplate:WikiProject Disaster managementDisaster management articles
???	This article has not yet received a rating on Wikipedia's content assessment scale.
???	This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.

removal of 'global warming' reference, identified as original research

Teo64x (I should note that the reference was not mine) although global warming surely didn't cause the fires (we modern greeks are mostly responsible for the chaos). I wouldn't say that the weather,the enviromental conditions aren't a factor,at least concerning the scale of the events. IMO it's surely a Paragon, it's ηλιου φαεινοτερον, that it is a preview of things to come. ερημοποιηση της λεκανης της μεσογειου,you know? Thanatos|talk 17:33, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

But to some extent the weather does play a factor. Look at how hot it has been during the summer in Greece. It was hot (40 Celcius and above) and dry (no rain during June, July, and August) the entire summer. Some mention of the hotness and dryness should be mentioned in the article. ^{El Greco (talk · contribs)} 18:29, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The fires themselves were the result of arson, while the fact that they spread so quickly was because of strong winds, lack of good communication between fire-fighting forces and the fact that forests were not properly separated, so that fire wouldn't spread. I'm not denying the climate changes, but none of the above reasons is linked to the global warming. For this reason, adding any information other than what was said in the media should be considered original research. That, unless there are sources that clearly link global warming and the spreading of these fires. This is all I have to say on this matter. I'm not going to be involved in an edit war... If you want to mention global warming, go on, I just pointed out why I think we shouldn't. Teo64x 18:31, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

dear Teo64x

could you please explain to me how can we strictly mathematically correlate with absolute certainty, global warming to the raging fires? or drinking too much beer to frequent visits to the bathroom? :-) Yes an absolute a strict causal link,a 1-1 or not mapping of the former to the latter is somewhat impossible , at the present a bit irrelevant,perhaps misleading or wrong. And anyway correlation is not causation. After all most of the fires were caused by arsoning ,negligence or stupidity. After all we the modern Greeks,we the neohellenes, are famous for our organisational skills. :-) After all ... So what?

Mathematical austerity ,a strict and precise proof isn't the point here. Common sense is. I'm not saying that science is wrong or inadequate but that the system is too complex if you get what I mean. Strictly sticking to wiki rules about original research is a little bit too much here.

If you disapprove mentioning of global warming and weather conditions reflecting on the use of the latter by the goverment and the politicians in general as an excuse then I must note that it surely isn't one. To hell with them,they're useless,totally incompetent. (To hell with us also since WE elect them and since WE built houses on scorched earth etc...)

But IMO not mentioning climate change for these reasons equals to supporting stupid politicians and pseudo-financial interests. Recall that scientists had warned the public long before the summer that due to climate change any fire (whatever would it be it's cause,man or nature) would be a grave danger due to the predicted extreme weather conditions. And that they were totally ignored,the men in charge assuring us that Alles war in Ordnung, and we the demos resting assure drinking frappe by the beach.

Remember that most of the Balkans,Italy,etc have been ravaged by fire this summer. Were all those fires caused by arsoning? And what were the effects,the scale of the arson-caused fires of the past? Recall also that many of the fires,not to mention of the major ones, were caused by negligence and not by arsoning, and that they spreaded and expanded over huge areas due to the weather etc.

Try to think of the fires in Greece abstractly ,both as one of the causes and of the effects of the anthropogenic shift of the subtropical zone towards the north. Think of what would happen if it had rained normally during the past year. If the three heat waves hadn't passed through Greece. Think of what will happen at automn,at winter after the rains. Or next year when we'll probably run out of water etc etc...

Try not to see the tree and miss the forest.

Anyway I wrote the above as fuel, as food for thought of things to come. I think we have a disagreement on semantics, I believe that in essence we all agree.

P.S.I'm not going to reinsert the global warming reference,let the consensus decide.

Thanatos|talk 20:35, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Personally, I'm pretty much convinced,too, that Global Warming and the subsequent Climate Change has a lot to do with the fires (that our climate is shifting from a mediterannean one to something more desertish, hence the fires). But that's just my opinion, and Teo64x is correct in pointing out that if we include this now, it's Original Research. Don't rush, Wikipedia is not on fire. If the hypothesis you (the one with the creepy username) and I make holds any water, then it will eventually surface in the press and then we can include it. But let's not make a blog out of Wikipedia, eh? --Michalis Famelis (talk) 22:31, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I ,the one with the creepy username :-),am pretty tired to have any objections.ciao

Thanatos|talk 05:03, 27 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Capitalisation

Why was this page moved from 2007 Greek forest fires to 2007 Greek Forest Fires? The fires are not a proper noun, so no capitalisation is required. Please compare with the titles used in Category:2007 natural disasters.--Damac 18:32, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

International assistance

I think adding a section on firefighting equipment and personnel from other countries sent to help would be a good idea. I don’t have much time right now, but if someone could, it would enhance the article. – Zntrip 05:32, 27 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I just moved the international help part into a separate section. I'd appreciate it if somebody could clean the list up. Teo64x 07:20, 27 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

the section should be expanded to also show countries who have offered assistance, but is not yet in action. for instance canada has offered 5 water bombers. source: [1] ...Patrick (talk, cntrb.) 00:32, 29 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Fahrenheit in the lead

I am aware that the reference #2 states the heatwaves' temperature in Fahrenheit, but as this article deals with a European event, maybe it would be logical to state the temperature in Celcius, and either a) quote another source, or b) leave the Fahrenheit figure as supplemental? What do others think? --Gimlei ^{(talk to me)} 10:06, 27 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with your suggestion. Teo64x 10:33, 27 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

You can go ahead and add the celcius equilvilant to it. The source gave it as fahrenheit. ^{El Greco (talk · contribs)} 12:42, 27 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Yep, that was probably the best idea. Cheers for help! --Gimlei ^{(talk to me)} 12:45, 27 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Olympia

Someone needs to go through and sort out the section about Olympia as it is a conflicted mash-up right now. Some new sources may be needed. Rmhermen 20:27, 28 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I've fixed it somewhat now, but I'll be looking for more sources and information to add. I also made it its own section under August 2007. ^{El Greco (talk · contribs)} 20:49, 28 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Area burnt

Someone should add the area burnt by the most recent fires (sq. km/hectares/acres, whatever). Rmhermen 20:29, 28 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]