Talk:United Nations Space Command

Logo is the wrong color.

I am a huge Halo fan, and from experience and work, I know that the logo should be black. 70.44.43.151 14:10, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Jeeze, more weapons info to merge into List of weapons in the Halo universe. LockeShocke 02:48, Nov 26, 2004 (UTC)

Reference

I took care of the reference problem; the video games could be added as a reference too.--Moosh88 07:56, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

ODST Patch

Can someone who has the Art of Halo book give me a pic picture of the ODST Patch on the 2nd to last page in there. Thanks. It's for the ODST Page. Tonster.

UNSC stands for United Nation Space Corps, not Command.

No, that's not true. It clearly says several times in the first two Halo Books that UNSC stands for the United Nations Space Command. -007bond 01:01, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

"Sargent Major, the colonial cross is awarded to those who act on singular daring and devotion, for a man of the United Earth Space Corps."

What about this though? Cutscene in Halo 2.

The UESC is apparently something else, as we know that there is a UNSC, as mentioned repeatedly throughout the games. Peptuck 01:59, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Unrelated

In comparison with ships like Imperial Star Destroyers (Star Wars) and Galaxy Class Starships (Star Trek), how big were UNSC ships, and if so, how many ships did they have, and were their faster-than-light engines capable of crossing the entire galaxy, or short portions at a time. Its in for a versus scenario involving the UFP and the Halo Universe. The Gwai Lo 00:36, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

-The Pillar of Autumn was 1.17 km long, the In Amber Clad was 478 m long, the Cairo was 1336 m long. From http://nikon.bungie.org/misc/sloftus_scalecomparison."Sargent Major, the colonial cross is awarded to those who act on singular daring and devotion, for a man of the United Earth Space Corps."

Then what about this?

Merge?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UNSC_Marine_Corps_Troops

This seems like it should be redirected/merged into this article.Miguel Cervantes 19:07, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

There's already a UNSCDF Marines page too... Bronzey 06:43, 21 February 2006 (UTC)]

What the hell?

There's someone who keeps editing all the UNSC pages with absolute rubbish. There's no way any of the stuff could be proven, in fact most of it's made up. Stuff like entire histories, ranks, armies etc that have just been made up from midair and have no place in Wikipedia. Bronzey 07:19, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

I haven't had the time to look extensively through the history of this specific Wiki page, but if you could get the IP address, I could do a WHOis IP search on him/her and give him/her a warning if abuse continues. Neil the Cellist 00:58, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

Headquarters location

The UNSC's headquarters were always located on both Reach and Earth. Stating that it was on Reach and is now on Earth gives the reader the false perception that the headquarters were moved when this isn't the case. —Wlmaltby3 08:55, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

I thought it was stated in Halo: The Fall of Reach that the headquarters for the UNSC were located on Reach, and that the HQ was indeed moved later to Earth. Could someone verify this? Neil the Cellist 19:31, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

Flash Clone

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Flash clone.  (aeropagitica)  (talk)  06:24, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

Italicise ship and base names

Just as a general thing to do over articles where there are named ships and bases. The italics help to show that it is a named vessel as opposed to a person or place.

Actually only the ship names should be italicized, base names are not italicized. See Pearl Harbor, Fort Hood, or RAF Akrotiri. - MJDuffy

UNSC headquarters

While the modern UN headquarters is based in New York City, is this true also for the UNSC? I know its military headquarters is based in Sydney, Australia, but do the books state that the civilian headquarters is in NYC? I would check, but I don't have the books on hand. Peptuck 18:50, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

I think it's both New York and Reach? Why? Because the NYC HQ could be for all of the colonies. Reach HQ might just be for like a other colony HQ. Tonster

Might. Might does not cut it for Wikipedia. There's no evidence for a UNSC HQ in New York City. Peptuck 03:58, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Yeah well might is the only thing we can say in the Halo Universe. Bungie doesn't have to much information to give us. And for all we know the UN could have tons of headquarters. So I bet just the "United Nations" part of the UNSC is located in NYC. Tonster.

Unfortunately, with fictional sources the only reliable information is canonical data. Never at any point in any Halo canon is a UN headquarters even mentioned, much less one in New York City. Peptuck 17:42, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Zulu class cruiser?

I've never heard of this class of cruiser; its never been mentioned in the novels or games. Is it from Haunted Apiary/ILB? If it is, tell me. Otherwise I'll delete it. Peptuck 05:50, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

I remember it was. So just keep it.

Cite a source, please. Peptuck 03:58, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Look at the big part at the bottom describing a whole bunch of Halo related links.

Thank you for being so completely vague. If you can't provide a specific source other than "I remember one" I'm deleting it. Peptuck 17:44, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Imperial government

I think it should be noted that evidence from the books seem to indicate that the UNSC (presumably the official title of Earth's interstellar empire) is not an egalitarian, possibly not even a semi-democratic society. Evidence for this includes the secret police-like operations conducted by ONI within the UNSC (note: in western democracies there is often a strict distinction between domestic and foreign intelligence agencies; it is unconstitutional for the CIA to operate on American soil), the use of the UNSC Navy, Marine Corps, and and Navy special warfare teams to supress the UNSC's own citizenry, and the Cole protocol (which almost completely restricts interstellar travel to military and/or government vessels).

It does, however, appear to be federalized or dominionized in nature, as the governments and city bodies of places like Harvest, Coral, and New Mombasa seem to have little corss-cultural interaction (New Mombasa was not an integrated world city -- many of the citizens portrayed were African, people from Coral were portrayed to be slavic in ancestory [Kamil, his family, and Sophia], and contact between Harvest and the UNSC was delegated to an occasional scout ship much like travel between the UK and the Pitkern islands in the Pacific Ocean.

I would rather disagree on this characterization; there are no instances within the established Halo canon of ONI directly conducting KGB/SS-style secret police actions against UNSC citizenry (though their ethics and morals are questionable, as they did recruit small children, train them, augment them, and then gave them cheaper versions of MJOLNIR and then threw them at the Covenant in suicidal assault missions), and the deployment of fully armed military forces is against an entrenched rebellion that, itself, is very well-armed; the rebels in Ghosts of Onyx even had nuclear warheads. Additionally, the Cole Protocol was only established after contact with the Covenant, and is only to be enacted on contact with Covenant, and then only to prevent the Covenant from finding human worlds; nowhere within the Protocol does it imply or state that travel is rI reallestricted to military and government vessels. Peptuck 18:04, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

The punishment of death which is discussed for violating the Cole Protocol in the Fall of Reach is, in effect, a suspension of habeus corpus. Interstellar war is not an excuse for summary executions, property seizure/destruction without a court order (the Spartan assault on the Circumference corvette over Reach), or any other cruel or unusual punishment by a non-civil body (that is, military court).

There are several instances of the Office of Naval Intelligence conducting secret police actions against the UNSC. Herzog's assassination in IloveBees and the Halo Graphic Novel, spying on its own citizens' shipping records and infiltrating privately owned freighters (the Eridanus operation on the fall of reach), murdering countless civilians as collateral damage aboard the Eridanus asteroid, Dr. Halsey indicated that Sgt. Johnson would be executed and probed by ONI for scientific research, censoring the internet or "chatternet" as it is called in Ilovebees, and the use of MILITARY warships in police actions against men and women governed by the UNSC (the warship involved with the Eridanus operation) indicates that there is no divide between domestic-based and foreign-based police agencies in the UNSC (i.e. the US military, the NIA [American Naval Intelligence Agency -- ONI equivilent] and the CIA are forbidden from operating on US soil) unless of course a suspension of habeus corpus and/or martial law (which has only occured during the civil war) has occured. It is impossible for a society without habeus corpus and/or martial law to be egalitarian or democratic in nature. Imperial Rome is the shining example of this, as prior to Julius Caesar's crossing the Rubicon, the only Roman army permitted to enter lower Italy was the Garrison of Rome commanded directly by the Roman Senate. The crossing of the Rubicon was the keystone to the fall of the Roman Republic because it esentially demonstrated that he who controlled the military controlled the Empire. In the Halo universe, absolutely no existance of a civilian government is illustrated (the military appears to be in control of the media in the Halo graphic novel -- obviously suspending freedom of speech and dissent), and that government (whether it exists or not) allows mankind's moral standards and natural rights to be determined and judged by some brainy ONI section 3 woman and a child-like Colonel Ackerson.

keep in mind that though a lot of these actions were done out of so called "necessity" in order to fight rebels and the Covenant in the face of annihilation, these authoritarian and tyranical impositions have been placed upon the people of the UNSC for over 25 years. That's an entire generation of children raised in a government that feeds them propoganda, lies, and imperial dogma about the superiority of mankind. A civilian man discussing the Human-Covenant War in the sunset on new mombasa story actually said something to the effect of the latter, I believe.

The government is classified in the Halo timeline as an interstellar empire, and it should be classified as an authoritarian government additionally. There is more than enough evidence.

Not necessarily. While the punishment for the Cole Protocol is indeed death, this is not necessarily a violation of habeus corpus; there is no mention of a lack of a courts martial for a failure to adhere to the protocol, or of trial by a military tribunal instead of a civilian court. Additionally, while the assault of the Circumference above Reach is technically a violation of search and seizure, there are major extenuating circumstances (including the gigantic Covenant fleet that was invading the area at the time intent on capturing unsecured NAV codes that would doom humanity, in violation of the Cole Protocol) Additionally, evidence indicates that the Circumference was an ONI vessel, which renders this rather moot. The survival of humanity as a whole outweighs the legal requirements for search and seizure on an ONI-owned vessel that is itself violating a major standing law within a system that is being overrun by a genocidal alien armada. To risk allowing the entirety of humanity to be destroyed because one doesn't have a court order to enter a ship containing NAV data that would allow the Covenant to locate eevry major human population center is preposterous.

While ONI did conduct assassination operations and used military force, these were again, against an entrenched rebel force; the group at Eridanus was well armed, with a fleet, uniformed troops, and a clear command structure. If a well armed military force took control of a major city or location in a soveriegn nation and declared it independent, then that nation would be justified in using both intelligence and military assests against that group, especially if regular police forces are incapable of dealing with the situation.

While I agree that ONI clearly is allowed to operate on both UNSC citizens (e.g. Section Two) this does not necessarily constitute authoritarian government; the UNSC may have adopted a different charter for the ONI that gives it the jurisdiction to take actions against UNSC citizens and conduct spying operations on their own citizens, though I would say it is something of a stretch to take a Spartan accessing readily available navigation routes and cargo manifests and calling this domestic spying. The inflitration of the tanker, perhaps, but this tanker was also transporting supplies to the rebels and thus making them complicit.

I also disagree with saying the government is allowing a couple of ONI heads to dictate morality; Ackerson was discussing operations within the scope of the S-III program, not according to humanity as a whole. In fact, in that same discussion they also mention the importance of popular opinion and privacy - if the S-III project went public then it could topple the government, and calling for a registration of genetic codes would spark tremendous upheaval in the colonies. This is indicative of a government that, at the very least, is influenced by popular opinion in some regards. Peptuck 07:46, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

The situation on Reach was perilous, but there was no indication to the alien fleet that such a ship existed in the Reach orbital shipyards (from John and Keyes'point of view) and since the battle was a defeat, and the MAC power source on the planet was destroyed anyway, Captain Keyes or any of the other 100 UNSC commanders could have nuked the docking ring and prevented any Covenant attack when defeat (and the destruction of the private property by the Covenant) was clear.

And as for Ackerson AND HALSEY, my point is that whether or not his/her control is delegated to one project, their actions within their projects, sanctioned, approved, or blank-checked by the higher ups demonstrate the sanctity of natural rights and human compassion for the UNSC as a whole. I'll be a jerk and use Nazi Germany for an example. The actions of a few including Heydrich, Hitler, and Mengela have led many to consider any German (even today) as anti-semetic, or cruel and calculating... Mengela's total disregard of human life with his experiments REFLECT on the entire German society of the 1940s, even though most Germans of that time would have probably thrown up if they saw two pregnant women sewn together. Haley and Ackerson's actions reflect that humanity DOESN'T DESERVE to survive -- that was the entire point of that feel-good morale John and Halsey learned in the end of Halo First Strike, if you remember. Halsey regretted the Spartan program at the end of that book because she chose UTILITARIANISM for humanity's redemption instead of faith, compassion, and respect of nature and human rights (she became a romantic -- the good guys to us video game lovers.) Would you like to live in a world like Gattica where you genes indicate how much you're worth as a person? How worthy you are to be kept alive?

You missed the main idea I was putting forth in the use of the military for domestic affairs. It is obvious in what we know about the Halo universe (only ONI has small-ish slipspace vessels, military ships cost as much as experimental armor) that intergalactic travel in the Halo universe is reserved for the elite or those who fight against the elite (dis-enfranchized citizens that you classify as rebels). No matter the strength or "entrenchment" of a rebellion, the military is unsuited for fighting against its own citizenry. It has nothing to do with weapons, equipment, and that sort of stuff (police forces can be equiped with automatic weapons and armor SUPERIOR to the military in the United States, for example), it involves a key principle of democracy: you cannot wage war against your own people. The western tradition (and the west is obviously the strongest influence in the UNSC government) has learned this lesson time and time again from the Roman Civil Wars to the American Civil War. After the Civil War President Grant established DOMESTIC policing agencies (such as the secret service, federal marshalls) because the Civil War and Reconstructioned clearly demonstrated that GI Joe is not the man you want protecting civil liberties in the streets of Savannah. The entrenched Eridanus rebellion is not some sort of foreign human splinter/terrorist organization -- they are disenfranchized citizens who are shownt to be fed up with inner colony exploitation. Earthlings in iLoveBees are shown to hold colonists -- even inner-colonists in perjorative terms quite often, which is key evidence. The very fact that the destruction of billions of lives and colonies is in itself proof that the UNSC and its people do not care about anything but Earth. Earth gets hundreds of MAC defense cannons while Sigma Octanus gets a DESTROYER? Honestly, besides "homeworld" sentiment (which, by the way closely parallels French, British, German, and American imperial arrogance in the early 20th century that led to World War I), what is so special about Earth that it is given more defense than any other world? Obviously, it is the seat of power for the UNSC, and there's your answer: The few control the many and are more than willing to throw billions into fire to stay safe and "hidden" by the Cole Protocol's veil.

I realize I'm not going to convince you any of this based on your pre-conceived notions peptuck, and I doubt myself that a man with a chemistry degree writing a science-fiction novel for a videogame company really put that much thought into the whole thing, but I really think if you take a look (even on wikipedia) at some Niche, Hobbes, Locke, Paine (especially), and even Byron... along with a little look at the life of J Edgar Hoover, Nixon, and Bush Sr. you'll be able to see how bleak the status of democracy and liberty in the UNSC is. I honestly see it as quite a machiavellian society... especially when looking at how the merit's of soldiers and, a human beings NATURAL RIGHTS are judged BY OTHER HUMANS on the basis of genetics. It's so painfully similar to the actions of European and American governments in the early twentith century, and I am not just talking about the Nazis. I'm talking about the less-than-20-year total colonation of Africa by the European powers "empire for empire's sake" because the Africans were considered lesser people who needed to be shown the light by the west. Or the American theft of the entire west from native americans, who were also "primatives". The total blanketing of oriental culture as this Charlie Chan, Dr. Fu Manchu society where all the women were "whores with hearts of gold". The UNSC is extremely arrogant in its science and its "post-post modern" attitude perfectly mimicks the modern attitude (not contemporary -- modern period stretches from the death of queen victoria roughly to the end of the second world war -- when "smart" people realized Slavs, Chinks, and Jews were just as capable human beings as Aryans and Anglos). Just look at the books. UNSC scientists practically pat themselves on the backs for being the best scientists in the universe, and when they see covenant technology they just say "Well, they lifted that technology and they use idiot savants to build it, we're still the best!".

I encourage other readers to take part in this discussion, or even to post this to HSP (the sort of "scholarly journal" of halo) or the forums on HBO for further extrapolation. I would really insist though, that at the very least the wikipedia article, in its introduction state something to the effect of "the unsc is great, wonderful blah blah blah [...] although the status of democracy, egalitarianism, and civil liberties under the rule of the Empire (it is officially referred to as humanity's empire) are not clear, and seem to be less than ideal from a post-modern standpoint."

The United Nations Space Command operates exclusively out of civilians' jurisdiction. While the ONI conduct secret operations, think of it as the CIA today capturing people over in Europe secretly, interrogating them, then tossing them over in other ends of Europe. Heck, the European Union complained about it in a resolution... if I could just find it. Anyway, the point is, despite the UNSC and ONI performing military operations that may be in conflict with the principle of habeas corpus, the civilian government itself may be entirely democratic and egalitarian. Neil the Cellist 01:02, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

"Earth gets hundreds of MAC defense cannons while Sigma Octanus gets a DESTROYER?" To the guy who said that uhh Earth only had 16 orbital MAC cannons at the time of the battle of Reach, production was stepped up AFTER Reach fell because the UNSC knew it was only a matter of time before the Covanent learned its location....just thought Id point that out.

Unyielding Hierophant

Why does Unyielding Hierophant redirect here? It's a Covenant ship.

I fixed it. The term Unyielding Hierophant now redirects to the wiki page with all the Covenant ship/vessel names —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Neilthecellist (talk • contribs) 19:22, 14 April 2007 (UTC).

UNSC Army

Ghosts of Onyx makes clear the existence of the UNSC Army (Col. Ackerson is described as an Army Colonel -- roughly equal to a Naval Captain), but it isn't mentioned here. MartinDuffy 02:04, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

One major discrepancy I find in the Ghosts of Onyx novel is that it describes the UNSC as having an army. Then what exactly is the point of having UNSC "marines" and a "navy" which dispatches those marines if you have an "army"? The point of armies is for land based operations, as is reflected by all armies of every country in today's world. Remember, as stated on other Talk pages of the WikiProject Halo, the UNSC is based heavily on the hierarchical structure of the US Army. (continued below)

Anyway, my point is that although we should be using the Ghosts of Onyx novel as a canonical reference for writing up the UNSC page, we should also be aware of such discrepancies. Perhaps such contradictions and discrepancies should be cumulatively listed on the article itself. Anyone see where I'm coming from? Neil the Cellist 19:29, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

It seems to me that the Marines are essentially a rapid-response force (or about as rapid as you can get when dealing with months of slipspace transit...) I don't think it's hard to believe at all that "fortress worlds" like Earth and Reach would have standing armies MartinDuffy 19:16, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

UNSC logo

Why does the logo for the UNSC include the letters "UNSCDF" that's a pretty stupid error. MartinDuffy 02:25, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

• I'm guessing UNSC Defense Forces, though I don't know where the image comes from. --L. Pistachio 18:23, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

In one of the cutscenes from Halo2, the UNSCDF is mentioned as a part of the UNSC. It should be part of the picture logo... unless there are any objections from my fellow Wikipedians. Neil the Cellist 19:25, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

Follow up - In the cutscene, I heard this, "Sargent Major, the colonial cross is awarded to those who act on singular daring and devotion, for a man of the United Earth Space Corps." Neil the Cellist 21:35, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

I don't think you guys understand... I work for the State University of New York... SUNY has a logo. I can't take a picture of the SUNY department of English's logo, put it up, and claim its SUNY's logo. You see? MartinDuffy 19:19, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Army?

I've read the Ghosts of Onyx talk page, and there are people saying that Ackerson is on loan to ONI from the ARMY. is this true? because if it is, then shen shouldnt it be listed as part of the UNSC? I havent read the book, but i hope to soon. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 125.238.89.148 (talk) 22:12, 6 December 2006 (UTC).

I've read the book and he is in the army, a branch that is seldom spoken off. The army appears to be more stationary than the Marines, since the book mentions it as being stationed on various human colonies.--Ian 19:40, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

new article

since ppl have probelms with flash cloning section and looks sortof out of place i suggest there be another section called medical techology and such terms be used there such as cloning bio foam the station mention in the ghosts of oynx the hopeful the ehancements to the spartans theres a lot more but those are main things Agentheartlesspain 22:09, 2 May 2007 (UTC)agentheartlesspain

Why? I haven't seen any complaints about this, and it is a UNSC technology and isn't big enough to warrant its own article. Peptuck 04:48, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

i think that bio foam should be added because of its constant use of in stories

Vehicles section expansion / old Human Vehicles in Halo article

As the content once on Human Vehicles in Halo currently exists in limbo, we should use it to expand the Vehicles section. Yes? No? --coldacid 04:49, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

ODST Sub-Section

I removed the sentence stating that the ODST are also known as Helljumpers, as only one squad are known as Helljumpers, the NSWG2-Team 5 O.D.S.T. "Helljumpers". Just because one squad is nicknamed "Helljumpers" dosen't mean the whole ODST are also known as "Helljumpers".

That's not true... In Halo: The Flood it was a more general nickname for going "feet-first into Hell" or something.

Please sign your comments. David Fuchs ^(talk) 14:36, 22 August 2007 (UTC)