Talk:Karamanids

Comments

Founder

It is not true that the founder of the Karaman beylik was armenian. The founder of the Karaman beylik was an Turkmen bey (warlord). Therefore I have removed that part, to be sure I have checked a few books and found absolute no reference of armenian origins of the Karaman beylik.

I am sorry, but you are wrong. It is well documented in the Encyclopædia Britannica. If you don't have access to the book, in short, it references that Karamanoğlu Mehmed Bey was the son of an Armenian convert to Islam, who married one of the Seljuk Sultan's daughters. So technically that would make him half-Armenian, but people are usually identified by the father's identity, so I think that justifies him as an Armenian enough. Eiríkr Rauði 18:07, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

You are completely wrong, there is no evidence pointing to this in seljuk or other Turkish chronicles of its time. There is absolutely no evidence in any Turkish history book and no historian has ever claimed that. During the seljuk times the lingua franga of the seljuk bureaucracie was persian and arab, the common public spoke turkish but the elites spoke persian and arab. It was Karamanoğlu Mehmed Bey who after declaring independence from the seljuk empire that Turkish was the sole language of the nation. His exact words were "From now on Turkish wil be spoken in the medrese (schools), in the mosques and by the elites" in 1291. There is no credibility of the claim that he has armenian roots at all, Karamanoğlu Mehmed Bey was a fierce Turkish nationalist, it is because of him that Turkish language prevailed in Anatolia. Therefore I have removed the outrageous lie.

The karaman clan has its roots in central asia, they were one of the many Turkish (Turkmen) clans to enter anatolia after the battle of manzikert. There are many Turkish sources pointing to this. Most Turkish sources and historians have this to write about the Karamanogullari dynasty. "Karamanogullari dynasty was from Nure Sufi Bey who was the son of Ahmed Sâdeddin Bey, one of the beys of Kacar tribe among Oguz people. Nûre Sûfî Bey was married with the paternal aunt of Eretna Bey."

Nuri Sufi Bey's actual name is Nûre Sûfî bin Sâdeddin, meaning Nûre Sûfî the son of Sâdeddin. Nûre Sûfî bin Sâdeddin was a clan leader of this Turkmen (Turcoman) tribe who had left central asia their homeland fleeing the mongols. First they went to Iran and from there to Azerbaidjan and then they went to the seljuk empire were Sultan Alâeddin Keykubad (1220-1237) setled them in Ermenek vilâyet (province). After Nûre Sûfî's dead Kerimüddin Karaman his son became the clan leader, it was he Kerimüddin Karaman wo is attributed as the founder of the Karaman dynasty.

It clearly says that they were oguz Turks belonging to the larger Kacar clan, the kacars still exist to this day in Turkey and in some parts of Iran. Karamanoğlu Mehmed Bey was also not the founder of the karamanoglu dynasty.

If anybody wants information about it please mail me (dennis_73@hotmail.com) Im more than willing to provide evidence. I have read many Turkish and non Turkish historians none of them claimed this, I wonder where Encyclopædia Britannica got his information from is there a reference???? Orrin 73

Here is a reference I found about Karamanoglu dynasty. In time I will provide more! http://212.174.26.236/goksu/regionalhistory.html http://www.ozturkler.com/data_english/0003/0003_01_26.htm

Encyclopædia Britannica makes the mistake by probably referencing historians Hammer, Cenâbî, Hazerfan, Âlî, Karamânî, Hayrullah Efendi. A scientific research done by Historian Şehabettin Tekindağ in 1947 found out that Hammer, Cenâbî, Hazerfan, Âlî, Karamânî, Hayrullah Efendi made the mistake of misunderstanding Ebu'l-Fidâ. Where they came to the conlusion that the karamanids were armenians. Şehabettin Tekindağ and some other historians have disproven that fact. Here is a credible source from a Turkish university about the issue, altough the reference is written in Turkish hopefully it will be translated in English sometime in the future. http://www.cumhuriyet.edu.tr/akademik/fak_ilahiyat/der3/3arboyacioglu.htm

You guys were all right. Thanks for clearing it up. It was hust Armenian propaganda, because an Armenian first told me that he was Armenian and that it is referenced in the Encyclopaedia Britannica... I'll have to think before trusting propaganda-driven Armenians again, especially in matters which can easily provoke hostile Armenian Genocide discussions and Armenian vs. Turk wars. Mmm, I don't get why they have a grudge on the Turks. I mean, the people were and are not at fault, as they did not carry out the genocide nor did they co-operate. There is no reason to apologize. :/ Eiríkr Rauði 17:31, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

Re-added the flag of Karamans.193.140.194.103 09:47, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Did a bit of copy-editing. IMO, the article could use a few more dates to show when key events occurred. Mary Read 06:48, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, I will add more dates.--TuzsuzDeliBekir 20:31, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

The flag

Error, rebooting universe... Am I drunk, or did I just see a flag with the Star of David as the flag of the Karamans?? I hope that some one can bring concrete harder than a rock references for that one. I just looked at the Candaroglu article that has the same flag, I looked at the reasoning behind it, however, we still should have good sources for that one..Baristarim 15:35, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

I think im drunk too or something wrong hehe , i've been searching for several days via google , this is the best results ([1]) , i think they dont even have a flag Ammar (^Talk - ^{Don't Talk}) 09:23, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

The star on the flag is not the Star of David, it is the Seal of Suleyman, an Islamic symbol that commonly used before. They are similar. You can see this star on the decorations of old Turkish mosques. Most important one that i remember is Gül Mosque, a former church that converted to mosque.

Another example is here, the war flag of Barbaros Hayreddin Paşa,

http://www.fahnenversand.de/fotw/misc/tr~barb.jpg

The flag was referenced to Catalan Atlas before. But i do not know the source. We can ask to creator of this image, User:Ingoman.

Actually, another symbol used by Karaman State is double-headed eagle. An academic work, "Karaman Oğulları Beyliği madeni paraları" (Coins of Karamans) by Cüneyt Ölçer is a good source for the symbols, but it is not available for online access.

Kaygtr 15:08, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Reference to the flag is here: [2] Kaygtr 09:36, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

This article needs work

This article is very confusing to me. For example:

• "they assembled another army which defeated Mehmet Bey. After the war, he and some of his brothers were executed in 1277.", but Mehmet Bey appears again in the 15th century: "Timur gave control of Karamanid to Mehmet Bey, the oldest son of Aleaddin Ali Bey."
• 'Alladdin Keykubat I, the sultan of Seljuks from 1219 to 1237, had reached the border of the Byzantine Empire and ordered some from the house of Turkmen to keep the borders safe. No sooner had he done so than Cilicia was captured, and control of the city was given to the house of Karaman." What did he order from the house of Turkmen? Who captured Cilicia and gave it away??
• "During this time, the Ottoman family were fought against for being kings. " Don't quite understand.
• "During the Crusade on the Ottoman Empire, Karamanid İbrahim Bey marched toward Ankara and Kütahya, destroying both cities" What crusade is this??
• This article says that this state was established by Mehmet Bey, but his article says he was the "3rd ruler of the beylik of Karamanoğlu".

If the problem is related to English skills, I would be happy to help. MapMaster 23:19, 13 April 2007 (UTC) P.S. I added a map.

Karaman not armenian in origin

I provided proof in my previous posts, why was it changed?Orrin_73