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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 59.139.29.235 (talk) at 04:18, 27 October 2007 (→‎Ottawa Panhandlers Union). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Ottawa Panhandlers Union

Ottawa Panhandlers Union (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)

Non notable union. Seems like an Industrial Workers of the World subgroup of little notability. Few real mentions in conventional news sources with one Ottawa Citizen op-ed piece. I consider the article to be a soapbox for something that a few anarchists think is a good idea. Halting traffic on Rideau Street and harassing shop owners does not confer notability -- Samir 08:22, 24 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This is the second time a group of people with a political axe to grind have gone after the Panhandlers' Union article. The irony is that the Panhandlers' Union was just in the media -- again -- as a result of someone at Ottawa City Hall vandalizing the Panhandlers' Union article, as revealed by the Wikiscanner. I suspect that the person responsible for nominating this article for deletion may in fact not only be the same person who vandalized the article (on behalf of which politician I wouldn't hazard a guess) but also the same person who has been posting death threats on city streets about the union's current organizer (see: http://img512.imageshack.us/img512/3216/0000999ok3.jpg).

For those who may not be aware, the Panhandlers' Union in Ottawa has been featured in dozens, perhaps hundreds of newspaper and magazine articles, radio interviews, and television interviews. At least one article regarding the Panhandlers' Union was syndicated internationally and became the Canadian Press "strange story of the week."

I suspect that this AfD is part of an ongoing, organized attempt to attack the Panhandlers' Union and its organizers. SmashTheState 00:28, 25 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, of course, it's a big conspiracy against people who beg for money in Ottawa. And the guy named "SmashTheState" clearly has no agenda here. Where are these news stories again? -- Samir 02:17, 25 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
KEEP The burden of proof is on you to prove you aren't attacking this article because of your political views. Smashthestate does have strong views but he has barely contributed to this article. The only changes he has made are minor fact corrections. The real bias of Wikipedia is the class bias. Do you expect us to have 100 panhandlers come on and vote to keep this article? I am the main contributor to this article. I have just rewritten the article and added more references to the Panhandlers Union from various news outlets. I somehow doubt you'll be satisfied.--Apples99 05:11, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
Uhm, no, the burden is on you to show that this is Notable. The sources are 3 in indy newspapers and one in some anarchy multi-lingual service. One's written by Jane Scharf. Seems like a local Ottawa phenomenon worthy of mention in Ottawa newspapers, but not worthy of mention in an encyclopedia. -- Samir 05:18, 25 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I, personally, have given dozens of interviews to print media, television, and radio. Amazing as it may seem, not every media story is archived on the Intertubes. I can think of a half-dozen off the bat which ARE, but I resent very much being forced to spend hours of my time hunting through media archives for them for no better reason than preventing what amounts to a bad-faith campaign of harassment by someone who doesn't like the politics of the IWW or the Panhandlers' Union. SmashTheState 19:04, 25 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - From what I've read and understood of the article, I am leaning towards "delete". But, before that can any supporters of this article explain to me with some degree of clarity what this thing is. I hardly can understand a word of the lead. Sarvagnya 05:35, 25 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

KEEP Re: Samir's comments in the larger discussion, the question is not and never has been of giving every shop of the IWW its own page. The question is of preserving a single page bearing on a group that has had national as well as local Canadian media coverage, and which has direct bearing on the bumpy ride (to put it nicely) of Ottawa's mayor - presumably a notable figure himself, no? This union shop has generated a great deal of discussion, as well as sympathy and hostility, in Ottawa and abroad. It has even provoked vandalism of its wiki page from someone within the mayor's office. If the union shop is of so little import, why is the city going after it? Here are some links to start with, there are others: http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/news/opinion/story.html?id=615a7936-caaf-4613-b676-d5635bdb0790 http://www.hour.ca/news/news.aspx?iIDArticle=955 http://www.ottawaxpress.ca/news/brief.aspx?iIDArticle=2828 Feldsparo 16:22, 25 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, number one that you cite is an op-ed piece by a local panhandler, and numbers 2 and 3 are pieces in tiny and very alternative media. This does not meet WP:N, nor is it accurate to say that there has been national and local Canadian media coverage based on these cites and the ones in the article. -- Samir 16:51, 25 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It is an op-ed piece printed in a major city newspaper, so one would think that it refers to a hot button issue in that city (otherwise why print it?). And the Ottawa Xpress, which is available on practically every street corner, boasts a large readership, and is Ottawa's major arts/culture newspaper, is neither "tiny" nor "very alternative" if honestly assessed. Feldsparo 00:29, 26 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

KEEP -- How many times has someone come along and tried to delete this entry? Is this the third time? Fourth? I don't know about the rest of the planet, but in Ottawa this particular union is getting a lot of press. --Nik 20:04, 25 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

KEEP -- This is news in Ottawa. 70.49.133.158 20:38, 25 October 2007 (UTC) Ottawa Resident[reply]

KEEP -- This article is invaluable to Ottawa activists. 99.224.75.237 00:22, 26 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Delete - doesnt seem notable. Sarvagnya 02:35, 26 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment A few of the media organizations which have covered stories about the OPU: newspapers: Ottawa Citizen Metro News Ottawa X-Press City Journal. Radio: CFRA including an hour long interview on the Lowell Green Show which is syndicated nationally. The organizer Andrew Nellis is also mentioned in Lowell Green's book "How the Granola-Crunching, Tree-Hugging, Thug Huggers are Wrecking Our Country". The book was a bestseller in Canada. [1] Several interviews on CHUO. An interview on CBC Radio. Television: Interviews on CBC Television and Rogers Television. Smaller outlets: Dominion Newspaper. Not all of these are archived on the internet. That doesn't mean they didn't happen. I have included enough references to notable media articles that I believe it's quite clear that this is indeed a newsworth story. Yes, there are articles in smaller newspapers like The Dominion which cover the issue of homelessness and activism. Isn't that a fitting place for such a story? The corporate press has long ignored these issues. Asking us for articles from mainstream corporate press again shows your political bias and the political bias of Wikipedia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Apples99 (talk • contribs) 04:04, 26 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete There are 12 references for the article. 3 blogs, 2 invalid pages, 2 listserv e-mail, 1 image, a link to Shinerama (it's not even really necessary in the article), a self-published page and two articles by Jane Scharf. The Scharf links might be useful, but they seem to be opinion pieces, rather than trusty news sources. The CityJournal is something of merit, but the article would still have major verifiability issues due to lack of reliable sources. Nishkid64 (talk) 04:21, 26 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
People actually FROM Ottawa have repeatedly mentioned here that the Panhandlers' Union is often in the media. Not every media outlet happens to archive their material on the Web. Having personally given dozens of interviews on behalf of the Panhandlers' Union, I know this to be the case. There is NOTHING in the Wikipedia guidelines which states references have to be electronic or even print. It is unreasonable to totally ignore television and radio references. These references are not in the article itself because, since the media itself is unavailable via the Web, such citations would serve only the purpose of protecting the article from deletion by people with a political axe to grind. It should go without saying that the Wikipedia articles should not HAVE to be designed around and for the explicit purpose of self-preservation. The fact that it's necessary in this case when numerous people have assured Wikipedia's editors that the union is often in the local media reveals that certain people are here only to use the article as a weapon to attack the organization. SmashTheState 15:53, 26 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Provide us with newspaper/radio sources. Those are perfectly legitimate on Wikipedia. In fact, many of the articles I write contain references from books, magazines and newspapers — not online sources. Nishkid64 (talk) 16:19, 26 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

KEEP -- How many KEEPs do I have to put here for you guys to understand. The reason that the corporate press is ignoring this is because of conservative right-wing influence on people who want to delete this article. I know for a fact that alternative Ottawa media like Metro and Ottawa X-Press have written at least 3 articles on it, and there is also one major article in Ottawa Citizen. Also like Apples says Andrew Nellis (even if he didn't talk about Ottawa Pandhandlers Union) was on CFRA and in Lowell Green's book. I know it doesn't meet your mainstream standards but this is clearly a major event that is shaking Ottawa even if the media isn't covering it. The reason it should be on Wikipedia is to fight the prejudices of the mainstream even if there has been little coverage! Pro Smith 07:44, 26 October 2007 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.139.29.235 (talk • contribs)

again wikipedia is not a soapbox. If it's a major event provide me links to references from notable sources. Stop telling it to me, show it to me. Ridernyc 12:35, 26 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Wait a second, how many keeps have you put on here? -- Samir 14:51, 26 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

and so what if I posted multiple times "keep" here! it's right wing "puppets" of the city like you that are ruining organized labour in the city of Ottawa. Damn right I'm telling people to come here and put their votes down in order to protect free speech from fascists like you. Pro Smith 59.139.29.235 04:11, 27 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

You know damned well it was a rhetorical device, meaning "How many times do I have to tell you?" Now you'll try to claim that all the "keep" votes are sockpuppets. It is becoming increasingly obvious to everyone here that you've nominated this article for political reasons which have nothing to do with Wikipedia or the notability of this organization. SmashTheState 15:57, 26 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
You do realize that almost all of the keep votes here are coming from IPs who just happened to make their first edit on Wikipedia here. It's clear that that there's sockpuppetry, or that someone is telling others to vote "Keep" in this AfD. Nishkid64 (talk) 16:17, 26 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
There's no "sockpuppetry" going on. As has been mentioned here before, there is bias built into Wikipedia. The people who regularly edit Wikipedia tend to be computer nerds. Computer nerds are a self-selecting and very narrow segment of the population, one which has a distictive point of view -- one which is actively hostile to both the Panhandlers' Union and the IWW in general. This has been established over and over again among those of us who regularly deal with attacks on organized labour articles here on Wikipedia. In this case, the people who actually have the most expertise to state whether the Panhandlers' Union is notable (that is, the local Ottawa activist community and the larger labour community as a whole) are taking time to vote on the issue in a medium they don't use enough to warrant a user account. If you're going to argue that only the specific group of people who contribute large amounts of time to Wikipedia are qualified to judge notability, then you are flying in the face of not just the stated goals of Wikipedia but logic and reason itself. I refuse to accept that the people best able to judge notability are the Asperger and OCD shut-ins who comprise the majority of the Wikipedia "community." SmashTheState 19:57, 26 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It's not some computer nerd. I think the guy who deleted this is Staff Sargeant Samir Bhatnagar who is working on instructions from the Mayor's office. Bhatnagar has targeted street people on many occasions and has arrested me personally. Pro Smith 59.139.29.235 04:11, 27 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

May I remind you of our no personal attacks policy? Also, you're making quite a stretch there in saying all Wikipedia users hate Panhandlers' Union and the IWW. I don't even live in Canada, and I came into this AfD as a neutral user who has no prior knowledge or bias on the subject. I offered my two cents, and as a result, there are accusations that I am biased because I did vote to keep the article. If an article truly establishes notability, it would be evident to any readers, not just people from the Ottowa activist communities. Please don't make accusations regarding bias, when it's quite apparent that you have a conflict of interest, since this is an organization that you are a part of. Nishkid64 (talk) 20:40, 26 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I didn't make any personal attacks, I made some very generalized (and accurate) attacks against the heaviest contributors to Wikipedia. In any case, it is inaccurate to say that notability should be immediately obvious to everyone. There are literally thousands of entries involving, for example, physics and chemistry which I have never heard of -- and neither have you. The mere fact that a random Wikipedia editor has not heard of a specific chemical compound or sub-atomic particle does not make it non-notable. Likewise, it is not reasonable to demand a union of panhandlers (this in itself makes it notable; how many unions do YOU know of for panhandlers?) be immediately identifiable to people all over the planet for it to be of significant note. Yes, it must be notable, at the very least, in its own field. Numerous people from the Ottawa region or the activist and labour communities have appeared here to tell you the OPU is notable. Your demand that I somehow produce the dozens and dozens of television and radio interviews representatives of the OPU have done is not reasonable. No other article is held up to such scrutiny. It is not outrageous for me to suspect there is political bias at work here, either conscious or unconscious. SmashTheState 21:52, 26 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I did not say that if you haven't heard of a subject, then it's not notable. I said the notability of any article should be apparent after reading the article. Instead of saying that I'm over-scrutinizing this article, just produce some more legitimate sources. WP:RS and WP:BLP are serious policies, and if you can't show that you can write an article using sources that satisfy these two policies, then I don't think the article should exist. Also, the fact that a panhandler union exists does not make it notable. Form an organization that has never existed, and it's notable? It's unique, but that does mean it meets Wikipedia's notability policy. This matter would be much easier resolved if you actually granted my requests. This AfD is about this article. It's not about any other articles. Don't say I'm over-scrutinizing when you fail to answer my simple requests. These are Wikipedia policies, and I'm only Wikipedia policy to support my arguments. Nishkid64 (talk) 21:58, 26 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Did you read what I wrote? I posted the list of all the news outlets in Ottawa which covered/covers the OPU. I forgot to mention that the op-ed article written by one of the OPU was written in response to an article in the Ottawa Citizen which is no longer available online. The original article was syndicated a week after its release. It was featured in many of the Can-West newspaper including the [Winnipeg Free Press]. Instead of screeching about the rules like a Wikipedia Admin cliché User:Ridernyc why don't you actually read the articles or learn something about Ottawa?--Apples99 16:04, 26 October 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Apples99 (talk • contribs) [reply]

KEEP - the Ottawa Panhandlers Union is a known organization in Ottawa and within a community of street people across the country. Regardless of political biases about whether or not you think this is a desirable organization, it is active, has consistently attracted coverage in community media, and is certainly worthy of an entry in Wikipedia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.230.24.109 (talk) 16:09, 26 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Again references please. Ridernyc 16:32, 26 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
You're being told by people who LIVE HERE that the Panhandlers' Union is notable. You're some random person -- apparently from New York -- who is voting on an organization which isn't even in your *country*, let alone your community, who is being told by people who LIVE HERE that the organization is notable. Every time an issue around panhandling and the legal issues surround it comes up in Ontario, it's the Ottawa Panhandlers' Union which gets called for comment by the media. As I have stated over and over again, not every media outlet archives every article. I have been interviewed a least a half-dozen times by CBC Television alone -- the Canadian national television agency -- and you won't find a single one of those interviews archived for your viewing pleasure. I am at a loss to explain why people who actually live in Ottawa with direct knowledge of the Panhandlers' Union and the media accounts it generates are obliged to prove to you, a total stranger with no knowledge of the subject, what is completely obvious to everyone here in the community. SmashTheState 20:04, 26 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

KEEP - I don't think there's any set bar for how notable something has to be before it can be included on wikipedia. But first, the article exists. Second, it's been covered by televised and print media. Not all IWW affiliates have been covered by their local media. However, if any organization does something newsworthy enough to be covered multiple times by news outlets and someone takes the time to write an article about it, I don't see why it should be deleted. Wikipedia isn't running out of paper, nor is notability exclusive to US media or non-local media. If anything about this article can be solved through edits, that's what should happen, not deletion. Drvoke 20:24, 26 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • There is a bar determining how notable the subject is. See WP:NOTABILITY. Also, some of the arguments here are about notability, and some are about reliable sources. Both are valid arguments. The other users voting keep argue that union is notable, and that Wikipedia has a bias against these types of organizations. On the other hand, I argued that there are a significant lack of reliable sources, which can ultimately result in BLP violations. My concern has yet to be addressed. Nishkid64 (talk) 20:44, 26 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • How many "reliable" sources do we need according to YOU? I've already listed all the "reliable" sources the OPU has been mention in which include: The Ottawa Citizen, Ottawa Sun, Ottawa Xpress, Ottawa Metro News, Ottawa City Journal, Centretown Buzz. In addition to these I've also included secondary sources from The Dominion newspaper, thehour.ca, blogs, forums. This is more sources than most articles have so can you remove the AfD notice now? I think you've been proven wrong.--Apples99 03:30, 27 October 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Apples99 (talk • contribs)
there are also some misleading ones. one link says metro news Ottawa and leads to a blog. And having pointed that out I know leave the debate, since I have searched for references myslef, and I have asked for references multiple and I get nothing but excuses every time. I think it's clear there are no notable references for this. Ridernyc 04:07, 27 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

So what if there are no "reliable" sources that meets your definitions. We have about 10 articles in media that you call "alternative" on top of my op-ed piece in the Citizen and that easily should suffice. Also we live in the city and we are telling you this is a major movement that is dramatically altering the way labour is organized in Ottawa. Listen to the people. But you'll keep on fighting with useless "facts" like the City Journal article didn't even talk about the Panhandlers Union. It talked about Andrew for Christ's sake. I also used the Wikiscanner on the person who nominated this for deletion and found that he is using computers from Ottawa Police Service and Ottawa City Hall. I am not surprised about this political agenda which I am sure is coming from instruction from mayor O'Brien's office. It is Staff Sgt. Samir Bhatnagar who has been a scourge against the street people in the downtown core. I am convinced that this is the person who is trying to delete the article. He is also targeting me in specific because I am from Bangladesh heritage. The union has upward of 34 members now and we will not be stopped by the fascists who are trying to suppress organzied labour and free speech. Pro Smith 59.139.29.235 04:11, 27 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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