Talk:SA80

Weight

"Weight remains the L85A2's most cited drawback. As with the L85A1, with most of the weight near the back, a large metal counterbalance in the foregrip was required." - I saw this on the main page, does anyone know who wrote it, because having used the weapon for years (and done all the associated stripping, cleaning and reassembling) I am still to come across this large metal counterbalance. Horatio Hornblower Senior 12:10, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

I've never seen one either - the foregrip's always been hollow. I've removed this unless someone has a reference for it, and replaced it with a more factual observation re: the rifle's weight. njan 19:02, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Sale to private bidders

I have a question about the SA80. I believe a portion of this article described the sale of some SA80s by either Zimbabwe or Mozambique to private bidders. The MoD were not pleased by this, as part of the terms of sale were that the weapons would not be sold on. Can anyone verify this, or was is removed because it was untrue? anon.

I thought the SA80 was given away by the british government as 'aid'. certainly no one in their right mind would actually choose buy this wretched weapon.

Production Line

Why was the SA80 put out of production in 1994?, Was it due to the soldiers complaints?

User:Jetwave Dave 02:35, 8/07/07

It is a piece of crap

Of course, you've used and had experience with the weapon, havn't you? Zanusi 09:28, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Actually, it is a decent performer, comparable with all major assault rifles. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.148.202.220 (talk) 00:22, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Safety Catch

Safety catch as an issue of contention? I use the rifle regularly and there's not a damn thing wrong with teh location of the safety catch? All it takes is a tiny movement of the fingers to switch it, so I don't know where all this is coming from. The A2 is a bloody brilliant rifle.

I have used the A2 in many extereme/filthy climates and enviroments from the tropics, deserts and the British winter and have always found it to be very reliable and robust, it is a vast improvement over the A1 in this respect. I can count on one hand the amount of stoppages I have had with this weapon despite infrequent cleaning and heavy usage. I much prefer it over the M16A2 and M4 carbines I have recently used on an exercise in Florida, I routinly had stoppages with these systems and found them to be flimsy and not at all accurate in relation to the A2.

Never heard of a problem with the safety catch before. I found that it was in the right place and all of the catches were actually a little stiff more than anything! --Pudduh 20:03, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

I think the perceived "problem" with the safety catch is that "by the book" you're supposed to use your trigger finger to switch from SAFE to FIRE. However, like most people I imagine you used the fingers on your left hand and thought nothing of it. If anything I find it's the change lever that's awkwardly placed. Just try firing a couple of shots then switching to auto to let off a burst without losing you target! A combined, thumb-operated, safety catch and change lever above the pistol grip (like AR15 and most H&K weapons) is better IMO, or do away with the change lever altogether and replace it with a two-position trigger like the Steyr AUG. Yorkshire Phoenix (talk • contribs) 08:08, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Shouldn't a lot of that history be under assault rifle or similar? -Khendon 15:22 Nov 5, 2002 (UTC)

Given the longer barrel, muzzle velocity really must be greater for the LSW. And I concur with Khendon on the assault rifle history part. - JidGom 23:14 20 Jul 2003 (UTC)

The LSW muzzle velocity is indeed greater - unfortunately I can no longer remember the actual figures. I have a feeling the cyclic rate might vary too, though I'm not sure.

I believe the muzzle velocity of the LSW is 960m/s. I can't point to a source for that, though. PeteVerdon 13:42, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Schott's Almanac 2006 (ISBN 0-7475-8307-2) of all places lists the muzzle velocity of the LSW. Reckons it's 970ms^-1. -- Lordandmaker 19:31, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

I also wonder about some of the praise heaped upon the weapon here - although the SUSAT is indeed pretty good, I've not heard any particular reports of the SA80 being "widely regarded as the most powerful and accurate mass-production 5.56mm rifle." The claim that the Cadet GP's cocking handle extension makes it "the fastest action of any manual rifle" also seems pretty dubious for what is basically a bodge welded on the side to improve the ergonomics of a system never designed for manual operation. 137.205.31.222 02:50, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Well i will not talk about myself personaly to avoid bias, but all i have spoken to who have used the a1 and a2, confirm it is noticably more accurate than an m-16 c-7 and g-36. It has a bad reputation because the original was terrible. But the A-2 is outstanding. remember the royal marines replaced there sa-80's with c-7's until the sa-80 A-1 came out to a degree, and total went back when the a-2 came out. look up the uk navy news site, and search for an article called testing times for a new weapon. There is a testimony from the head of the royal marines there. as for the reliable sourse if you check the article sa-80 mistake or maligned it actualy has links in it to mod and other sources. there about as offical as you can get. also qouted on the army technologies website. in desert tests under matching conditions for all weapons, the a-2 got a pass rate of 85% the second best was the m-16 with 46%. rich tea man.(but yes the cadet gp rifle is very bad.) http://www.army.mod.uk/infantry/current_equipment/the_infantry_small_arms_in_the_section.htm

Why is the effective range of the SA80 stated as 400m, when the M16 page claims 500m? I'm sure that with the longer, heavier barrel, and optical sight, the SA80 is better at range than the M16. Perhaps this is from US/UK diffs in mil. definition of 'effective range'?

A single rifleman with an SA80 is defined by the British Army as 'effective' to 300m; although the SUSAT is adjustable to higher distances. A section of eight men is defined as being effective to 600m. Draw what conclusions you want. 82.1.172.70 21:53, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

I've edited the effective range of the L85 and the L86LSW with data from the MOD. I would have thought that they would be our most reliable source of information on this?--Wikipediatastic 15:38, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

With respect to the L22A1's effectiveness I would like to know how those conclusions were reached in regard to the performance of the 5.56 NATO round. For example the NATO SS109D round is more than twice as heavy as the P90's 31gr. Veritas Panther 02:10, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

Not based on the EM-2

I've removed the part of the history section which states that the SA80 has its historical origins in the EM-2 rifle. This is not the case unless what was meant was the commonality of a bullpup arrangement. The mechanism and manufacture of the EM-2 are different to that of the SA80, in that it uses flap-locking rather than a lugged rotating bolt, has a sprung firing pin rather than a hammer, etc and was manufactured using more traditional techniques involving a lot of machining tather than the stamped pressings of the SA80.

I'm not sure that I'm entirely happy with my rewording of the first sentence though! Chris 12:21, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

March 2005 study

A reliable source is needed for the March 2005 L85A2/M16/M4/AK47/AN94 study. I've not found anything on Google. --AndrewKerr 23:39, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

- The results were published in a restricted publication. -- anonymous

If that's the case then they shouldn't be mentioned here, because wikipedia demands verifiability --Khendon 06:26, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

http://forums.bf2s.com/viewtopic.php?pid=1309296#p1309296

Bf2 came out March 2005. The topic of the thread was the best assault gun. Jemme101 had posted a bit of text from wikipedia to prove a point in the thread. Right before this a anon had reposted the bit of text about the none existent test.All the weapons that are part of this none existent test are part of the game.--M8v2 23:00, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

This was removed by another wikipedian, since it seems not to be attributable at all, and wikipedia does indeed require verifiability. However, I've dug up what appears to be a good reference to another study done by the ITDU. Any comments? njan 19:06, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

template

I changed the template to what I thought was the standard template for firearms, but if you dont like that, OK. Mainly because the image looks awkward off center and lacking a caption, the other way looked better, but do what you want.

the template used is parameterised which makes for easier editing. See Wikipedia:WikiProject_Weaponry#Table_templates GraemeLeggett 30 June 2005 13:08 (UTC)

Users of the SA80?

Was this used by Zimbabwe and Jamaica? I know that Jamaica uses Colt weapons systems, but I think Zimbabwe uses Russian (and possibly Chinese) rifles.

I had no idea about that one, as far as i knew the only people using the bullpup SA80 was the british.

Strange, the info said that Jamaica and Zimbabwe use them.

I don't think there's anything strange about former British colonies, Jamaica and Zimbabwe, using British standard firearms. I'm only surprised more ex-colonies didn't use them.

---

The Romanian Navy got some A1's when they purchased some ships

---

I'm fairly certain one of the Caribbean states was gifted L85s for its defence force, it may well have been Jamaica. DG 8-4-2006

Mozambique were also provided with a quantity of A1s by the Uk government.

Jamaica has been using them since 1992 so it says on thier website.

User:Jetwave Dave 02:30AM, 8/7/07

Manufacturer?

I've noticed that the article, unless I missed something, fails to clearly mention the manufacturer of the SA80 series. (Unless it's actually made by the British government?) -- anon

How's that? --Khendon 15:14, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Manufactured by Royal Ordnance (Now part of BAE Land Systems) // Upgrade of original rifles to A2 performed by H&K 82.1.172.70

I don't know if it's worth mentioning as part of the above that H&K was also part of BAE at the time of the rework, though it's an independent company again now. DG 8-4-2006

The weapon was made by RO Defence but the HK symbol appears on most of todays rifle due to the fact of their rebuilding in Germany. King Konger

Its still the original A1 frame but with H&K parts installed into them making it the A2. The rifle hasnt been in production since 1994.

User:Jetwave Dave 02:33, 8/7/07

Use in Fiction

I would have thought a possibly better occurrence of the L85 in film is 'Dog Soldiers' (2002), where the patrol is initially armed with L85s with the blank firing adaptor, though they rapidly swap to MP5s, G3s and shotguns with live ammo when they find the massacred SF team. DG 8-4-2006

Is it worth mentioning the 'Soldier, Soldier' and 'Redcap' UK TV series as well? -- Lordandmaker 14:02, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Someone seems to have removed this section. Personally I'd rather keep it. Opinions? Chris 17:03, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Pop culture sections do not add anything to the article, and are merely lists of trivia, not to mention they tend to become excessively large. Many other firearms articles have been through this, and it has been generally agreed that "In fiction" or "Popular culture" sections should be avoided. It should be fine to have a mention of the weapon's frequent appearance/use in popular culture (although it is not really the case with the SA80, if you compare it to, say, the M16). —Squalla 17:42, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

I just thought that its pop culture features gave an interesting counterpoint to its definite lack of popularity in real world use, at least formerly. Chris 18:33, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

The information is probably more usefull in List of firearms in films and List of firearms in video games than here. And when it comes to L85, Battlefield 2 and Tom Clancy's Rainbow Six should be mentioned. --80.213.161.170 20:03, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Don't forget that they use the in Firefly all the time...

"Don't use the carrying handle as a carrying handle"

I've never come across this restriction. It sounds like the kind of myth which abounds in the Cadets in particular, and in any case if the zeroing was that likely to change then it would be a problem in normal use in the field even without carrying the rifle by the carrying handle. Logically the problem would apply to the SUSAT and CWS as well, particularly the latter due to its weight. Running with a CWS attached would subject the sight mounting to far higher instantaneous loads than walking about non-tactically with the rifle suspended from the sight. I'm going to remove this phrase; the originator is welcome to reinsert it provided they can provide a reasonable justification here. PeteVerdon 13:39, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

As a cadet we were always told not to. In the TA, we were told that was "bullshit". I presume the idea was to make Cadets hold the rifle 'properly' more, or that they couldn't be trusted to tell when it was and wasn't appropriate. -- Lordandmaker 14:04, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

I do know that our CTT sergeant didn't like people using the carrying handle (he likened it to a handbag) but we assumed that was due to him being an infantryman (SUSATs with everything) and hence unfamiliar with rifles being carried like that. On the other hand, if you're a skill-at-arms instructor like I was, laying out rifles ready for a lesson, then the ability to carry three or four in each hand is very useful - try doing that without a carrying handle! PeteVerdon 15:28, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

I remember reading the small tounge in cheek magazine that was distributed in the Army when I was a kid which scolded you for carrying the rifle by the SOUSAT. Haven't heard anything about carrying it by the handle. The closest I've heard is in the OTC where it was frowned upon because "you looked like a tramp or a ned, possibly both" by carrying it by the handle.--Pudduh 20:01, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Making cadets and recruits carry the weapon properly and not using the carrying handle is indeed more to with turning them into something that resembles soldiers rather than anything to do with it damaging the sights, although it also ensures the weapons are under proper control. As an ex-infantryman I dislike the handbag handle and slings, but tend to carry my rifle by the body, not the pistol grip: for that "casual, not too green" look. Yorkshire Phoenix (talk • contribs) 08:08, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

I wouldn't think twice about this. Its nonesense. Its the kind of thing that your told in the army so you make silly mistakes like carrying the rifle by the carry handle and can be drilled harder for your minor error. Such formalities are abundant in the British army; For instance people getting in trouble for calling an L85 an SA80 (because an SA80 ISNT a rifle, its a group of weapons.) Or getting in trouble for calling an L85 a gun. As a gun is technically something over 105mm in caliber which the L85 certainly is not, technically its a 'firearm'. The term 'gun' for handgun etc. is an Americanism and shouldn't be confused with the true UK-English meaning of a gun. In short its all bollocks basically. Designed by NCOs to let their recruit and junior soldiers slip up on silly errors and drill them for it. 80.176.155.90 17:35, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

"Some internal parts are interchangeable"

I believe I originally wrote this (a couple of years ago) as "all removable internal parts are interchangeable" or words to that effect. Would anybody care to remind me which removable internal parts are *not* interchangeable between the LSW and the Rifle? PeteVerdon 13:51, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Source

http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/SA80.htm

a good article and a few links to official mod odcumentaion. and mentions the test.

"Tap forward assist"

At the OTC, we mainly used the A1 version. One of the things we were taught during rifle drill was "tap forward assist" a very scientific term for "bashing the cocking handle forward a couple of times to make sure it goes all the way forward." This was explained as because the spring was quite weak, the cocking handle doesn't go forward sometimes. Should this be added if it is true?--Pudduh 20:08, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

The forward assist is a standard British Army drill regardless of the weapon. The M16A2 actually has a button protuding from the RHS which can be hit to push the bolt fully forward (as forward assisting the cocking handle would be no good, due to differences in the design). I don't think it's anything to do with a specific weakness with the L85/86. Yorkshire Phoenix (talk • contribs) 08:08, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

It might be now, but I remember it being introduced on the SA80 in the early 90s. Caused me no end of trouble because I was used to working without doing it and ended up failing a weapon handling test. at the time it was explained that it was a weakness in the return spring.ALR 14:46, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

In lewis page's book he says that the "tap forward assist" was added to the drills instead of actually fixing the weapons.Corustar 13:03, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

I wouldn't take much notice of Page, he spent his rather short career doing one type of job and appears to have no real knowledge of the acquisition process. He makes some valid points, but more by luck than judgement.ALR 13:17, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

I thought that about his book too and im not in the forces yet. its just that he made the comment abount the "tap forward assist" being added to the manual instead of the weapons being fixed and i was wondering if its true. Truefully reading his book makes him sound like he was bitter about the career he chose and felt leaving the forces and writing a book would be a better move.Corustar 01:08, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

When it was introduced a lof ot instructors were saying that was the reason, but logically it takes time to introduce a fix; find a more resilient spring, buy enough, distribute them and ensure that configuration control is maintained etc... ALR 08:42, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, we were specifically told by our instructors that the reason for the "tap forward assist" was because of a weakness in the spring. --84.12.76.86 01:22, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

I am in the Light Infantry, and we are still taught to forward assist with the A2s, indeed it is part of our stoppage drills. I have been told that this was originaly brought in with the A1s because of the weakness of their springs, I am not sure why it is still taught with the A2 as the spring is now a lot stronger than the ones in the A1.

Having recently used the A2s on ex in Germany, I can say that the forward assist is there to make sure that the bolt really locks forward with the chambre. I believe that it is not officially attributed to weak recoil rod springs, but simply as a precautionary measure. The IA drill for all the SA80 weapons should be to tap the cocking handle forwards, as in the L85, L86 and L98A1 the bolt may not be all the way forwards. Tapping makes sure the bolt is firmly locked forwards. I have found once on exercise that the forward assist during the Make Ready saved me an un-neccessery stoppage. It also came into play on the DCCT range, where the operator decided to give me a stoppage! -anon

Claim regarding L98A1 Cadet GP Rifles in ATC vs ACF service

I've removed the following claim from the main page,

“ ...especially on ATC weapons, which tend to see a higher level of use that ACF weapons. ”

Without some kind of credible citation it just doesn't stand up. Army Cadets use the Cadet GP as a regular part of their generic "soldier" like training, including a large amount of use in the field and the firing of large amounts of blank ammunition, away from the close supervision of range staff. I believe there is a ban on blank ammunition in the ATC and the rifles are used strictly for range practices, skill-at-arms "dry" training and weapon handling tests. This would suggest the ACF rifles are more likely to incur damage through excessive use (unless, of course, the ATC don't look after theirs properly). As a former ATC cadet who has subsequently assisted in ACF training I have no bias one way or the other, but do have some insight. Yorkshire Phoenix 15:37, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

I may have introduced some potential for confusion here as I changed the original contributor's mention of CCF to ACF, on the possibly questionable basis that the ACF has a page here and CCF doesn't seem to, at least as far as I could see. I doubt it makes much difference, but thought that it was worth pointing out anyway.

-- Chris (blather • contribs) 16:00, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Oops, a second search has revealed that I must've pressing the wrong keys when I tried to do a search on Combined Cadet Force the first time around, so my change of CCF to ACF was somewhat misjudged after all. I'll not change the above quoted text back, though, otherwise that'll really confuse things.

-- Chris (blather • contribs) 16:12, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Pictures

We could do with a picture of each of the 4 different types of SA80 currently in service 195.137.109.177 13:47, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

left handed problems?

Can the A2 be fired left handed? I think its implied but not actually stated. this seems important Askin 12:17, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

No it can't, the ejection opening is on the right hand side of the weapon, same as the A1. If you fired it left handed you'd get a cocking handle and spent case in the eye.--81.171.193.117 14:12, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Unisex Rifle

When the SA80 was first introduced it was quickly nicknamed the 'unisex rifle', presumably because the adoption of a smaller calibre lightweight bullpip rifle co-incided with frontline female soldiers. No mention of this in the article. Also because soldiers in general saw the SLR as a superior weapon a lot of effort went into convincing soldiers that flat shooting small calibre guns were more effective on the battlefield, including a demonstration of shooting a brick wall 3 times with the SA80 and once with the SLR, and also a discussions about not having to kill a man in modern warfare. etc.

I couldn't cite a reference, but i understand that during the Falklands war British soldiers were known to take enemy weapons due to their automatic capability, something that the SLR lacked and ultimately one of the contributing factors for converting to the SA80 weapon system. But yes, you're quite right about not having to kill a man in modern warfare. A dead man is one taken out of action, an injured man is three.--81.171.193.117 14:18, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Criticisms

(I apologise for this edit, but I'm not sure how to make my protest known in another way)

I use the SA-80 regularly and what was written above about the criticism of the safety catch was (in my opinion) clearly written by someone who has never held, let alone fired, the weapon. Unless you intend to fire the weapon your finger should not be on the trigger and instead should rest in its natural extended position which leaves it (guess where) right over the safety. A tap of the safety makes the weapon ready to fire and from that action to having your finger on the trigger takes under a tenth of a second. I once again apologise, but must fiercely protest the accuracy of what I have read above. The SA80-A2 is a fine weapon and I've never experienced a problem with it, despite submerging it, coating it in mud, firing in sub zero temperatures and in desert conditions.

Just removed this comment from the article page. Geoff B 10:26, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

One slight error with that rant, it is the L85A1 Not the SA80A1, SA80 = FAMILY, L85 = WEAPON. Meateater 11:18, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Yep, but not everyone knows what an L85 is, because it's a Brit Army designation. Even though said designation is in the article, if you posted on here talking about the L85 someone would say "This is the SA80 article, you fool." SA80A1/A2 is commonly used when discussing the weapon with those unfamiliar with Brit Army L-series designations, and even in informal discussions between those who do know of the L-designation (e.g. ARRSE forums). Geoff B 17:59, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Note sure if this helps but I think some of the criticims of the safety catch may have originated from those of us who switched from the SLR (L1A1) to SA-80 (L85A1). With the SLR all you had to do was move your thumb to take the safety catch lever on/off and it was easy to check whilst keeping your finger on the trigger. SA-80 is a tiny plastic button ahead of the trigger guard, you have to take your finger off the trigger and it never appeared to us as that intuitive but you got used to it. On the early models of the SA-80 the safety catch was relatively weak and apparently you could break the safety catch by pulling on the trigger - though that story may well be apochryphal. Most of the old hands adored the SLR and considered the SA-80 that replaced it a piece of crap. Justin talk 13:41, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Cadet GP

I have removed the statement:

"However, because the cocking handle is connected to the rod by a pin, it occasionally breaks[citation needed]. Another idiosyncrasy of the GP rifle is that adding an extra mechanism complicates the maintenance of the rifle, and it is possible to detach the rod from the bolt carrier in such a manner that it is only partly functional."

It is indeed possable to do this... however, it is also possable to put the weapon together without the bolt in it. The fact this can happen is irrelivent. Also, the cocking handle dosent comlicate maintainance at all. Gas parts can take upwards of an hour to clean after extended firing, whereas the cocking handle and runner, takes perhaps 30 seconds with a combat jacket and a pot of oil.

Please discuss if you think it has been removed unfairly. Teta 19:59, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Whether or not the additional assembly "complicates" maintenance is of course up for debate, but the malfunction mentioned is far and away the single most common mistake I've seen made during routine cleaning of the Cadet GP, and for this reason alone I think it's worth a mention in this context. njan 20:36, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

I'd say anyone who makes that mistake, has merely been badly trained, or wasnt paying attention when the reassembled it, its hars to miss a huge thing like that!. It's a human error, but its not a problem with the rifle it's self, so i wouldnt say it needs mentioning. Also, leaving the tiny cocking handle off the LSW is a far more common mistake, since it's s tiny! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.242.226.199 (talk)

The design of the rifle causes the error to be able to be made in the first place; many other flaws with this, and other rifles - such as the lack of a guard around the safety catch, malfunctions when not cleaned, or even the need for a safety catch in itself, could also be attributed to a greater or lesser degree, to "mishandling", particularly when under stress, tired, etc. I'd say it's meritous enough to warrant a short include. njan 19:06, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

L98A1 "FUN"

I removed the quotation "the L98A1 is known as an accurate and "fun to use" rifle among cadets." because this is not true, the accuracy isn't brilliant and the only reason it is called "fun" is because its normaly all cadets get to use Fwed66 14:40, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

Actually, considering the tight groupings we achieve, in my personal ecperience the Cadet GP is a highly accurate weapon.

LxxAx

Doesn't the British Army accept weapons into the armed forces with the A1 suffix in their initial set up? The start uses A1 for the L22 and other derivatives but just lists L85 and L86 for the IW and LSW weapons (And this continues later down, that it was accepted into service as the L85) Narson 21:37, 16 September 2007 (UTC)