Jump to content

Talk:Clitoris

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 64.142.82.29 (talk) at 06:19, 22 December 2007 (→Photo not needed). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Template:ACIDnom

Archive
Archives


Purpose

It is odd that this page does not tell the purpose of the clitoris. Is there any purpose other than sexual pleasure? We should point out that the clitoris seems to be the only part in any animal's body that is existent ONLY for sexual pleasure! silic0nsilence 00:52, 23 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It is hard to say that a body part has a purpose. In order for something to have a purpose it must be designed for a reason. The human body wasn't designed, it merely evolved into an evolutionary niche. Since it wasn't designed none of the body parts have a purpose. We can comment about why body parts are useful; such as the fingers are useful for picking things up, and the clitoris is useful for sexual pleasure. However I find it incredibly strange that we suggest that this is the same thing as a purpose for their existence. Calling it a purpose suggests we can easily modify the human design should we no longer have a purpose for the body part. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.180.20.244 (talk) 17:07, 27 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I disagree that "in order for something to have a purpose it must be designed for a reason"...mainly because although the human body evolved over time, I don't believe that anyone can argue that the purpose of the sexual reproductive system is to reproduce, no matter its pleasure aspect when engaging in sexual intercourse or other sexual acts, and therefore I would even state that "it was designed" for that reason. And given the advancement of science, the possibility of modifying the human design is becoming more and more of a reality, such as with genetic engineering. That said, I don't believe that everything necessarily has a purpose, of course... Such as what is the greater purpose of human beings anyway? Are we here to invent things and such...or are we here just because (as is everything else)? Then again, we don't necessarily need tonsils, but even that has a purpose while in the body. Flyer22 19:51, 27 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Embryos contain rudiments of both genders for later differentiation

In response to the above question of the reason for existence of the clitoris:
One might also ask why males have nipples. The following answer to both questions is not OR, it's a recollection of what one of my college professors said, tangential to a different topic. Perhaps someone interested in this article (I'm not) would care to research and find valid sources for this. It went like this: Developing embryos are essentially female. They have nipples, clitoris, vaginal opening, labia, the forerunners of ovaries. If the male chromosome is present, then at some appropriate stage of development, the androgens kick in. The clitoris enlarges, subsuming the urethra, to become the penis. The labia grow in size and grow together, closing the former vaginal opening, and forming the scrotum. The ovaries descend to the scrotum and become the testes. The nipples are already there; they can't disappear, but in the male, they just don't develop so much in size, and of course, in lactation glands. So, the clitoris is there in case it needs to become a penis. I've always liked this explanation, because it explains not only why the clitoris is there (That's easy - in most mammals, it's the estrus of the female that is the prelude to sex, not the desire of the male, so there's a location for physical drive comparable to the demands of the penis on the human male), but the even more puzzling question of why males have these useless nipples, whose only function seems to be getting chafed from one's surfboard or jogging singlet. Can anyone source this idea? Unimaginative Username 07:19, 4 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Yes. Check out Anti-müllerian hormone. --slakr\ talk / 07:25, 4 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I would say that the clitoris serves more of a purpose than male nipples, if comparing the two, of course. Most women need the clitoris to sexually orgasm. Men? Can do that just fine without nipples. Anyway, this topic about the clitoris is always interesting wherever it is discussed. Flyer22 07:34, 4 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Also, from the above comment by Unimaginative Username and having heard this theory before it was mentioned here, I wondered about this edit, which removed a passage basically pointing to the very same thing, as seen with this link...[1]. The editor who removed it, well, found it a ridiculous theory. The passage was uncited, though, so that probably prompted the removal of it more so. Flyer22 07:49, 4 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Re: The edit that Flyer22 points to: The removed passage was poorly worded. It was a non-sequitur; "vestigial" doesn't apply; "normal" intercourse -- what is that?; and "left over from the penis" doesn't say it well - it's more a forerunner or precursor of the penis that doesn't develop. slakr\ talk /'s link supports the idea: If the AMH is present, as in males, the organs cease their female-directed development and take the male direction. Certainly, the idea that all men were originally females (even as a 6-week fetus) might make some men uncomfortable, but science is here to discover reality, not to please people's egos. Strongly encourage an interested editor to pursue this, source this statement, and place it in the article, as it explains a *lot*. This editor, however, has sufficient knowledge of this topic from OR, so doesn't wish to get involved in the article. Unimaginative Username (talk) 03:56, 6 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, that removed passage was poorly worded. I'd like to see a better-worded and sourced passage about this topic added to this article as well. Flyer22 (talk) 06:49, 6 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
This site doesn't seem fully functional any more, but perhaps it's a start:

7th week: " Genital ridges are ambisexual gonads."

8th week: "External genitalia still not distinguishable as male or female. If male hormones are present, the ambisexual gonad will now begin to differentiate into a testis."

10th week: "External genitalia are still not distinguishable as male or female."

Came up from Google search of 'embryo+development', and get past the expectant-mother sites to the medical ones. Unimaginative Username (talk) 05:59, 7 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Gender

Is it just me, or is it really really strange to not even mention in the article that the clitoris is part of the female genitalia? Powers T 19:47, 14 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

No. Check Labia minora and Labia majora. Joie de Vivre talk 20:12, 14 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, it's strange there, too. Though I do note they both have the Template:Female reproductive system navbox at the bottom, I hardly think that's sufficient for explaining the topics. Powers T 21:20, 14 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I don't see why it shouldn't be mentioned? Some people might consider it common knowledge, but it varies from person to person what one knows. Erm.. yea there is a point in there.. Does anyone have any reason NOT to add that the clitoris is part of the female genitalia? --BiT 23:24, 14 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Ask Joie. Powers T 01:02, 15 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I do not appreciate you using a diff of my edits in an effort to make a statement about my actions. That is a form of a personal comment and goes against the spirit of WP:NPA. Please consider your motives in the future. Joie de Vivre talk 06:13, 15 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I was making no statement about your actions; I linked the diff simply in lieu of quoting your edit summary. There was no other motive. Please consider your words in the future. Powers T 15:17, 15 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
It's unfortunate that you do not recognize any rudeness in your action. Joie de Vivre T 15:21, 15 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
And it's unfortunate that your words appear so condescending, and that you seem to have failed to assume good faith on my part. Let us revel in our misfortune together! =) Powers T 15:50, 15 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
It would be better if in the future you refrained from linking other people's action and using that as a substitute for allowing them to speak for themselves. Someone posed a question as to the reason behind an action. You posted an edit summary of mine which explained that action, with only the words "Ask Joie". Now you are being sarcastic. I cannot spend any more time explaining it but I urge you to examine your actions and compare them to the concepts set forth in WP:NPA and WP:TPG. Providing my edit summary as an answer to someone else's question is rude. Joie de Vivre T 15:58, 15 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I'm apologize that I came off as rude. I assure you my intentions were benign. I didn't know the answer to BiT's question, so I referred BiT to your edit summary, which explained it as well as anything else I'd seen to date. That's all. You seem like a nice person; I hope we can leave this misunderstanding behind us. Powers T 20:02, 15 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
That said, there is a difference between referring to something as biologically female and referring to it in terms of a female gender role. It is appropriate to talk about the clitoris as part of the "female body" but not as belonging to "females" or anything related. People may have female bodies but not identify as "a female" or as one of a group of "females". It is an appropriate descriptor for the body itself, but not as a sweeping statement about the people who inhabit female bodies. See transgender and intersex. Joie de Vivre talk 06:12, 15 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, but we're talking about' the body. To say something is a female body part is not saying all females possess it or that no non-females possess it. Powers T 15:17, 15 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
And, most importantly, to fail to mention entirely that the clitoris (or vulva or whatever) is part of the female reproductive system is a gigantic disservice to readers of this encyclopedia. Powers T 15:18, 15 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
It is appropriate to make mention of the biological sex being female, but it is not appropriate to refer to all people with clitorises as gendered "women". I have made a mention of the fact that the clitoris is present in female organisms. Joie de Vivre T 15:25, 15 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
If you'll recall, my original edit added the word "female", not "women". I still don't see what was wrong with it. Powers T 15:50, 15 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
You were able to provide a diff of my edit, why not of the one you speak of now? I don't know which "original edit" you mean. Joie de Vivre T 15:58, 15 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I originally stumbled into editing this article when I noticed the lead never really explained that the clitoris was part of the female reproductive system. So I put it in. You reverted it, and that's what started this whole thing. Now, it seems your objection is to the word "woman" not "female," so perhaps you can see why I'm confused. Powers T 20:02, 15 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Expert wanted: Clitorises of the animal kingdom

...thank you, Wikipedia, for giving me the chance to type out a subject line like that one :(

Right, in light of the above discussion on gender, the page intro now says that the clitoris "is a sexual organ which is present in biologically female organisms" with features similar "throughout the animal kingdom with the only known exception of the Spotted Hyena". This can't be accurate: I'm pretty sure female fruitflies and octopuses don't have clits, nor fish. I don't know to what parts of the animal kingdom it applies to, though. Is it present in all mammals? What about marsupials?

If the article is going to cover non-human clitorises at all, this needs to be cleared up and expanded on by somone with more knowledge, and it might be good to give it a section of it's own similar to the way done on the Penis page. Since it's not related to human sexology or anatomy, where can we find somone with knowledge of animal biology? Is it ok to tie it to a project like WP:TOL when the page as a whole wouldn't fit in that projet? // Amphis 22:58, 22 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

dont female lemurs have unusual clitorises?

Photo not needed

I removed the photo needed tag, because there seems to be sufficient photographs and diagrams. Zakolantern 05:21, 17 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I think we need more photos as there are somany people who will not understand what is it and how does it looks like. We need to have close ups of Clitoris of different age group. We should also need photos of all the animal clitorises. I feel this is an encyclopedia and it should cover maximum with full detail. User: antern

There is some serious vandalism in this page. 67.177.31.30 15:14, 2 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]


in reply: i think there will still always be many people who don't know what it is, even with a thousand more photos. :P —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.81.141.182 (talk) 06:28, 18 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I think the photo was educational. Diagrams look like diagrams and not like real life. The only reason I could see for not having a photos is if people are so uncomfortable with certain parts of the human anatomy that they just can't handle it. Even then, the article's primary purpose should be to inform. A photo should be placed back in the article. --64.142.82.29 (talk) 06:19, 22 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Intro

Why does this article not mention the role of the organ in sexual pleasure in the introduction? With most of the science and literature supporting the idea of the clitoris as the physical epicenter of pleasure for most women (around 70% if my memory serves me), this is a big part of an encyclopedic discussion of the subject and it should be in the summary. VanTucky (talk) 02:09, 18 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

"Biologically Female Mammal"

Seems awfully redundant. Unless you are specifying that something is referring to a "gender role", the word female is always taken to mean the biological gender. Clicking the wikilink to female that is already there provides you with a great definition. Common use and the actual biological term both apply to the body only. If that wasn't enough, then the fact that it is describing mammals, which as far as I know are not ascribed "gender roles". If it said "humans" instead of mammals or "women" instead of female, then I'd understand the reasoning. The word "biological" should really be removed.

This usage of the word cannot possibly be mistaken for a non-biological use and makes the sentence not only redundant. An animal that _is_ a female and an animal that _identifies itself as_ a female are very different things. 71.120.201.39 20:10, 12 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Biological Reason

This seems an odd way to put it. Surely it's a little bit creationist to suppose that it 'has a reason' - can't we say that it may be a vestigial organ, but it also happens to serve the purpose of increasing reproductive rates? I don't want to step on any toes here, I'm just not sure about the word 'reason'. 144.32.59.212 22:59, 16 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I'm okay with the heading Biological reason. I don't feel that it's that creationist to suppose that the clitoris has a reason, when taken into account the fact that most body parts of humans, as well as other mammals, insects, etc. have a biological reason. And, after all, most women cannot orgasm without use of the clitoris. But that section also addresses the notion that the clitoris may not necessarily have a biological reason. Flyer22 23:45, 16 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Well, just a few moments ago, it did note on the topic of not necessarily having a biological reason, but an editor removed that due to the main theory it centered around, which the editor cited as ridiculous. I'll add more to that section later, valid and non-ridiculous additions, of course. Flyer22 00:00, 17 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Whether it's interesting to discuss or not doesn't really matter, though, since a Wiki article should follow the WP:NOR policy. If you have verifiable external sources that you can reference for this debate, put the section back. Currently, the entire section is unreferenced and have asked for cites for a while, so I'm removing it for now. //Amphis 10:49, 28 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, yes, I know that Wikipedia articles should not be about original research. I'll probably add that section back one day, with valid sources. I do wish that the person who originally typed up that section had added references to it, of course. I'm certain that there are some valid ones out there about what is thought of as the clitoris' biological reason. Flyer22 11:51, 28 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

What organisms have it?

Do monotremes have one? Andjam (talk) 04:11, 14 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I know fruit flies ain't got one. 01:44, 20 December 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.234.109.196 (talk)

Reasons for changes

Gillyweed reverted an edit that I made recently, with the comment, "Much of this is selfevident". Here are the reasons for the changes, in the order they appear:

  • changed a few instances of "woman" to "female". See genderqueer and transgender; not all people who have a clitoris are women.
  • Can it be proven that all persons with a clitoris distinguish between different kinds of orgasms. replace with "may"
  • It's not "self-evident" that cosmetic surgery on intersex infants is unnecessary, or it wouldn't be happening anymore.
  • Not all transwomen undergo SRS.
  • The "can never replicate" comment, what does "replicate" even mean? According to whom? Certainly some people find that it "replicates" a naturally occurring clitoris perfectly well.

-- Photouploaded (talk) 21:30, 21 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This gives undue weight to a minority position and makes the article look ridiculous. Take a look at WP:Undue. The article adequately deals with transgender issues without making every change from 'woman' to 'people' or 'female'. Changing women to "some people" suggests it includes men. Men DO NOT have clitorises. As for the "never can replicate" comment it had a fact tag against it, waiting for at least some confirmation. I'd have thought that was clearly self-evident from a physiological point of view. From a psychological view it might be different. Gillyweed (talk) 21:38, 21 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
OK, hi, thanks for coming to talk. Let's see.
About "people": I don't think that the word "people" means "women and men"; I think it just means "people", the gender of the group's members is not determined. If you saw a group of people 100 meters away, and you could not see whether they were men, women, or both, you could reasonably say, "I see some people over there." To say that "people" necessarily includes two genders is not true; it can also mean that the genders of the people in the group are unknown. And, like it or not, some men do, in fact, have clitorises. It's not fair to talk about "women" when all we know about is body parts. Body parts do not determine gender.
As far as "can never replicate", I think this is a pretty POV bit of OR. The section was added in this diff, nearly a week ago. I can understand leaving plausible information with the cite tag (such as the rest of it), but the word "replicate" is so ambiguous in meaning that I don't think it belongs. Photouploaded (talk) 21:53, 21 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The only part of Photouploaded's recent edits that I object to is changing the word "women" to "some people"... I say that because though some transmen may have a clitoris, they do not identify as women, and most don't like to acknowledge that their body or a part of it is biologically female. Also, this article is focusing on biological aspects more so, thus transmen are included in the biological sense, when the word "women" is mentioned. I'm quite familiar with transgender topics, even though I don't actively edit those articles here at Wikipedia, and I get what Photouploaded is going for with those recent edits. But to say "some people" is confusing and seems rather off, whether one is familiar with transgender issues or not. Flyer22 (talk) 00:06, 22 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Clitoris&oldid=179544451"