Talk:Khazars

Undue weight given to role of Judaism in this article

NPOV section states that:

Undue weight applies to more than just viewpoints. Just as giving undue weight to a viewpoint is not neutral, so is giving undue weight to other verifiable and sourced statements. An article should not give undue weight to any aspects of the subject, but should strive to treat each aspect with a weight appropriate to its significance to the subject. Note that undue weight can be given in several ways, including, but not limited to, depth of detail, quantity of text, prominence of placement, and juxtaposition of statements.

Other religions including Shamanism, Christianity, and Islam also played important roles in Khazar history before and after some of the Khazar nobility embraced Judaism. The opening section fails to emphasize this aspect of Khazar history. Furthermore the parts about DNA evidence should not be in this article. This is an encyclopedic article about the Khazars. Perhaps a separate article dedicated to the Khazar role in Jewish history would be a good place to provide such information.

User:Nostradamus1 23:12, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

The article makes clear that other religions were practiced in Khazaria. The latest scholarship suggests that Judaism was widespread, and this is one of the things the Khazars were best known for. You have presented absolutely no justification for removing the DNA evidence section, as this is a major controversy surrounding this people. Briangotts (Talk) (Contrib) 14:37, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Briangotts. This article seems pretty well-balanced already. 6SJ7 (talk) 18:19, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

The article is not well balanced yet. First I'd like to ask why the NPOV tags I placed were removed in less than a day? It clearly states that we should not do so. I did not expect you (Briangotts) to understand the undue weight matter I raised since you are probably the one who created it in the first place. I will put the NPOV tags back so that others can come and discuss this matter too. Second I placed referenced information that was deleted with a comment that they were "misleading". In what way? Are you questioning the credibility of the souce? I will quotee from another source. I do not thing the article in its current form gives this perspective:

The Khazar Turks who seized the Russian steppes in the 670s are best remembered because their ruling elite converted to Judaism a century later. Like many steppe peoples the Khazars were of mixed origins but their state endured longer than that of most. Even before Muslim Arabs appeared on their southern frontier the Khazars had allied themselves with Byzantium against Sassanian Iran and this traditional friendship continued after the Sassanians collapsed. The Arabs proved to be much more formidable neighbors and this clash forced the Khazars to move their Caucasus capital north to the mouth of the Volga. Originally shamanist, the Khazars almost converted to Islam following a shattered defeat by an Arab army which chased the Khazar Khagan right across the steppes into the forests of the north. Instead, however, the Khagan went back on his agreement and revived the Khazar alliance with Byzantium. A short time later the ruling elite converted to Judaism, though the number of converts remains a matter of heated debate. Others adopted Christianity or turned to Islam which most Khazars accepted after the collapse of their state in the early 11th century.

Mentioning that other religions were also practiced in Khazaria is not enough. It is how this information is presented that gives the balanced perspective. Khazars did not start as followers of Judaism and they did not end as followers of Judaism. The number of Khazars converting to Judaism is a debated matter. Therefore stating that "the Jewish religion became widespread among the population" is POV. Most sources state that only the elite converted and the article must point to this view that is the main stream view. Recent research or pet projects should stay out of this encyclopedia. Disputing minority views may be noted, though. This subject apparently is used by extremists on all sides and unfortunately the immediate victim is the subject itself. Such debates should to be taken elsewhere. This is also not a place for original research so mitochondrial DNA or whatever has to be left to researchers. This is an encyclopedia.User:Nostradamus1 19:40, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

The fact is that we know precious little about the other religions practiced in Khazaria. All of the sources agree that Judaism was the major influence from at least the early ninth century through the mid tenth. It is true that the view among early Khazar researchers (Artamanov, Dunlop et al) was that the conversion that was limited to the elite, but the current consensus based on the last five decades of archeological investigation and textual analysis is that the conversion was far more widespread, and even extended briefly to allied nations such as the Alans. Nicolle's statement is of little import because he is a non-specialist dealing with the khazars very briefly in a work that itself deals briefly with the history of nomadic armies over the course of ten centuries. The works of Pletnyeva, Golden, Brook, Kovalev, and in particular the contributors to Peter B. Golden, et al., eds. The World of the Khazars: New Perspectives: Selected Papers from the Jerusalem 1999 International Khazar Colloquium (Handbook of Oriental Studies/Handbuch Der Orientalistik). Brill: 2007, are more relevant and apropos. The DNA section is well-sourced and is not original research. It reports what the researchers themselves have stated. Moreover, you are being disingenuous when you claim that the debate about the extent of the conversion is ignored- in fact it has its own section in the article. This is the appropriate place for you to include well-sourced perspectives which highlight the disagreement among scholars- not your own personal feelings on the matter. Briangotts (Talk) (Contrib) 19:50, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Use of the Label "Anti-Semite"

The label Anti-Semite is indiscriminately slapped on innumerable numbers of people by this article. The references are so broad as to be rendered meaningless. This usage is common to all articles involving Jews. Therefore, I think the label should be permanently banned from any use on any article dealing with Jews, for all time. This label should be treated exactly like the labels "asshole" "motherfucker" or "cocksucker." In other words, the label (anti-semite) should be erased, except when used as a criticism of itself. Furthermore, the people using the label should be treated in exactly the same way as someone who used profanity in reference to another person/group, except of course, in a criticism of doing so, as I've done in this comment. (Barkmoss 20:19, 24 December 2007 (UTC))

I absolutely disagree, if only because it's *not* a curse word like the foul words to which it is erroneously compared. The fact that some may disagree with how it has been used, or not like being called one, or even if people mis-use it - none of these mean that the word itself should be banned. I also disagree if only for the extreme terms being suggested for the proposed ban.FlaviaR (talk) 02:21, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

Further criticism of the label is that it is, in reality, a meaningless term. Palestinians are Semites too! People who blow themselves up in order to kill Israelis are usually Semites. People who are killed by the Israeli Military are generally Semites. If that doesn't prove to someone that the term is meaningless, then they either live in a coffee pot or their skull is made out of concrete; in essence, they are in denial. (Barkmoss 07:38, 25 December 2007 (UTC))