Talk:Thracians

Commodus in 350 CE ?

The article says : "Tomotoole was a Thracian catamite who served the Roman emperor Commodus and is rumored to have died as a result of an insurgency committed in 350 CE." Commodus reigned from 168 to 193 (2nd century)

5th Milennium and Shisharki

Shisharki prestani da govorish gluposti! I have to say that whoever this Shisharki is, he/she has obviously read too much of the Bulgarian nationalist literature, which has little to do with the true historical research. The non-Bulgarians may not know that this literature even claims that Bulgarians descend from aliens! Do I need to further prove its 'reliability'? I myself am Bulgarian and am sick of these writings and the ignorants who believe them! Thracians do not date back to the 5th millennium, of course, since they spoke an Indo-European language. The fact is, however, that there are no records of their 'coming' to the Eastern Balkans, its SEEMS as if they were always there. But of course they came together with the Dacians, Moesians, Illyrians, Pannonians, Greeks, etc.

Another remark to the quality of this article. There is no mention of the relations of Thracian with Daco-Moesian (Burebista was a Dacian king, not a Thracian one!), Phrygian and Armenian language and peoples.

My advise to those, like Alexander 007, who can contribute to the subject: do not hesitate to write here, you see the need is urgent! Wikipedia has become a primary source of information on the internet. I would write without hesitation, but my English is not good enough and I don't know the subject well.

I don't know who wrote all that stuff about the range of the Thracians in Neolithic times, but I haven't been able to verify it. Thracian ethnogenesis may have occured rather in the Chalcolithic period. Alexander 007 08:52, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

5th Milennium???

Where did the author got the idea of Thracians being in Thrace in the 5th milennium BCE.

The correct chronology for Neolithic, Calcolithic and Early Bronze in Thrace is:

c. 6000: culture of Karanovo I/II, related to Sesklo and other Balcanic early Neolithic cultures
c. 5000: culture of Karanovo III-Veselinovo, related to Dimini and Vinca
c. 4000: culture of Boian-Marica: the previous culture is assimilated by the "Danubian" one of Boian, settled originally in Vallachia
c. 3500: culture of Karanovo-Gumelnita: evolution of the previous in a fully Calcolithic, rich society that shows clear evidence of monarchy (probably the oldest European state of some size) and exerts some influence on neighbour regions. In the region of Sofia ther is a related but different culture (Gradesnica-Krivodol). The treasuries unearthed recently seem to belong to this affluent period.
c. 3200: the north (Vallachia) seems invaded by early IE speakers (if we follow the Kurgan theories) represented by the group of Cernavoda I
c. 3000: the result of those invasions is a reorganization of all the region that leaves most of Thrace/Bulgaria in a new culture, Ezero (personally I read that as a mixture of the earlier local culture plus a pre-IE Nord-Pontic element that would rooted in Dniepr-Don and still surviving inside the complex of Serednij-Stog II, where early western IEs form)
at some time after 2000, Thracians, maybe related to Cymmerians, arrive (but I'm unsure about this as I haven't studied the archeology of late Bronze and Iron ages), if somebody can say authoritatively that Thracians derive directly from Ezero, I'll believe him/her - but I suspect it's not the case.

--Sugaar 01:32, 26 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Sugaar, I have no idea who wrote that material in this article. This article has been in need of a rewrite for years now, but I'm too lazy to undertake it. Feel free to correct the text. I've corrected bits of it here & there, such as the claim of Thracians ruling the Balkans in the Neolithic. Alexander 007 09:52, 26 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Hxseek (talk) 02:58, 20 January 2008 (UTC)==Thracians== "Thracians" - who made up this term? I guess it comes from the Roman province, there are no true evidences to call them Thracians. They were actually Bulgarians,... and they are still there... --Shisharki 05:28, 30 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Thracians comes from the Greek terms applied to them (Thrax, Thrakios, Threikios, Thrakos, etc.) not from the Roman Province; the name of the Roman Province (Thracia, Threcia) was simply taken from Greek Thrakē, etc. The Thracians were not Bulgarians or speakers of a Slavic language. The Slavic languages show clear evidence of once being dominated by Germanic tribes, north of the Carpathians (see Proto-Slavic language). And by the way, even the Slavs in what is now Bulgaria didn't call themselves "Bulgarians" until they were dominated by the non-Slavic Bulgars, who only invaded Thrace in the 7th century AD... Alexander 007 05:32, 30 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Wrong: The origin of the so called German tribes is 'slavic'. The Greeks didn't not call the Thracians 'Thracians', but used the name of each 'Thracian' tribe - Besi, Gothi, Daci...

in any case, Bulgars are not even indo-european. to say that bulgars were non-slavic is an understatement. Bulgars were a nomadic turanic tribe (from the Caucasus). turks. as in (to put it at a level you might understand) people that don't look like europeans. at all. for crying out loud. not even bulgarians look turkic because the bulgars, when they migrated to today's Bulgaria (historically, Thrace), migrated in thousands (8 thousand), as opposed to the already settled slavs/vlahs that were, at that time, about 4 million. An argument to sustain the minor number in which bulgars migrated is the fact that Bulgarian is not a turkic language, but a slavic one. who made up this term?!?!?!?! who made up this term?!?! oh. my. god. you clearly missed the ancient history classes, while in school. please refrain from making a fool of yourself and/or of your bulgarian school (or whoever thought you these things) any longer and stop asking questions before conducting at least a minor search on google (regarding ancient history and what relevance it has to turanic migrators, of course). IleanaCosanziana 19:07, 21 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Wrong. For example, Herodot uses the name "Thracian" quite frequently in his History and so did Plato, Strabo and all the other Greek scholars. bogdan 23:48, 3 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

There were hundreds of them. And they were actually Bulgarians.

Precisely. hundreds. you said it, not me! quod erat demonstrandum. IleanaCosanziana 19:07, 21 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Then why the hell they had no Slavic/Bulgarians names for their cities? All the Thracian cities, tribes or personal names do not look at all like proto-Slavic/ancient Bulgarian. bogdan 23:48, 3 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

How do you know that? What do you know about the so-called Thracian language??? Whatever the historians tell you? Wrong method for learning history... - Shisharki

The word "Slavic" also pops up out of the blue. The so called "Slavics" are a mixture between Bulgarians (settled in the lands between Adriatic sea and Caspian Sea 2000 yrs ago) and other people. The 'slavic' languages are formed under the strong influence of the Bulgarian, escpecially the Eastern and Southern "Slavics". --Shisharki 23:27, 3 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Go read a real book on the Thracians and/or Bulgarian history. :-) bogdan 23:48, 3 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I don't accept any hsitorical thesis as true unless it is supported by any evidences, as most of the people. The lack of evidences means manipulation of the facts... Shisharki

The evidence will be presented in the article. As you wrote on Talk:Dacia, the Romanian and Bulgarian people have a lot in common, and one reason is because both of them have autochthonous Dacians and Thracians in their background. But the evidence does not indicate that the Thracians spoke a Slavic language. Alexander 007 23:38, 7 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

of course it doesn't. the Slavs came much later (V-th century after the birth of Christ), but before the Bulgars. and their number was much greater then that of the Bulgars, but they were probably a bit less than the romanized thracians/moesians.IleanaCosanziana 19:20, 21 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

However, most Thracians in Thrace were probably hellenized, not romanized or slavicized. Romanization of Dacian-Thracians was more in Moesia and Dacia; slavicization of Thracians may well have occured, but it is tentative. Slavicization of some Dacians is more likely than Thracians for geographical reasons; though if one considers the Dacians as simply Thracians (this is disputed), then there is not much difference. Alexander 007 23:44, 7 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The modern Greeks are mostly from Slavic descent - these are the so-called Thracians. I don't know why everyone cites other pages from this site, written by you guys. It is just not true - just a political mainulation. No thanks :) Best Regards! --Shisharki 23:42, 8 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

probably you have no idea about the Greeks and their origin.Can you provide any source for your opinion or it is just another fallacy?

The information is from R. F. Hoddinott's The Thracians, 1981 and other scientific sources, and it is based on archaeology and other historical evidence, including written sources. There was not much Romanization of Thracians occuring in the Roman Province of Thrace, while Hellenization in Thrace is well-documented. These "ideas" are based on what evidence there is, not wild flights of fancy or ethnocentric fantasies. Some Thracians speaking the Thracian language may have still been around when the Slavs entered Thracian lands, but that's about it. Alexander 007 00:05, 9 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I think it is far-fetched to say that modern GReeks are mostly slav, but certainly a fair degree of Slavic intermixing occurred. Not only when the slavs first arrived, they assimilated Greeks then became linguistically re-Hellenized. This continued all the way until WWII when Slavophone greeks were Hellenized by the government. Of course, this may not be accepted by Greeks becuase it subtracts from the Ancient-modern greek continuity theory. Hxseek (talk) 02:58, 20 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Link showing distirubtion

This site from Texas showing Thracian distribution: 1)probably does not represent Thracian distribution at any one time 2) assumes (though it's probably a correct assumption) that the Dacians can be considered Thracians 100% 3) the distribution in Hungary looks exaggerated, at least for most periods of history; much of Hungary was Celtic/Illyrian land in ancient times. Alexander 007 21:40, 8 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Speculations

Some have speculated that the Thracians and the Myceneans were kin before splitting off whereby the Thracians settled in Thrace and the Myceneans settled in Greece.

These are just speculations: It is almost clear that the Thracians and Greeks were from different branches of the PIE tree: the Thracians spoke a Satem language, while the Greeks speak a Centum language: the Greeks came from the western side of the Balkans, while the Thracians from the eastern side. See this image.

Also, the phrasing is based on weasel words: "some have speculated". If there was some authority in this field, then yes, we should write about it, but random speculations at a conference are not notable. bogdan 14:02, 5 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

i'm sorry, but evidence to sustain the fact that the Thracian language was a satem language are very few and quite shallow. this was B.P. Haşdeu's opinion. a long time ago. when indo-european languages such as hittite weren't yet discovered and deciphered. if you are a romanian native speaker, do check out newer linguists' studies and their arguments here. there might be articles in english written by the same mihai vinereanu, as he is currently living in New York. he is not the only example. an earlier author would be tonciulescu. check out his "Impactul Romei asupra Daciei" ^[1] (the impact of Rome on Dacia). and these are two of the authors I have read thoroughly and who support this idea. there have been many more who somehow saw resemblance between thraco-dacian and latin or centum languages. IleanaCosanziana 19:34, 21 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

First of all, to base the differences of the Thracians and the Greeks on just the PIE tree is kind of shallow-minded. As I have said before, the Indo-European Theory is quite flawed since it bases human migrations and relations between civilizations only on language. Archaeological evidence has challenged the Indo-European Theory numerous times. Of course, who cares about archaeology or sociology, right? The history of the world revolves only on the migration of languages and not people.

If you want to alter the "weasel words", then go ahead and do so. In fact, I will do it myself. However, a short paragraph discussing the symposium is a historical fact whether a person agrees with it or not. For all we know, the symposium could very well have had numerous respectable scholars discussing seriously about the possibility of the Thracians and Myceneans being related. Besides, the events at the symposium were chronicled and published. Check the references section if you think I am lying. Over and out. - Deucalionite May 5, 2006 1:25 P.M. EST

If that symposium had any influence at all, then I guess some of those respectable scholars published respectable books or articles in respectable peer-reviewed journals. That's why I ask you to bring such respectable articles as references. :-) bogdan 19:49, 5 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Fine. If I manage to find more respectable sources to further validate the section, then I will do so. However, the section is a starting point. There is a reference that supports the section's validity. For anyone to delete the section by failing to give it a chance is not necessarily a good thing. I could be wrong of course, but a valid point is a valid point if it is grounded in reality. The symposium occurred and readers do have a right to know what happened during this symposium whether it had a big or small influence on the field of Thracology. Just so you know, I am reintroducing the section since a there is a source that supports its existence. I don't mind you or anyone disagreeing with what I am putting, but readers deserve to know as much as there is to know about the Thracians since their origins are not exactly as clear as crystal. Over and out. - Deucalionite May 5, 2006 5:14 P.M. EST

Assume good faith refers to editors, not to sources. For this I fully agree with Bogdan: give us the names of the scholars and of the names of the works in which they advance this thesis, and we'll be both be happy; but in the present condition it's not better than nothing, it's far worse.--Aldux 22:02, 5 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Something is just not kosher about this. You want the names of the scholars in the symposium yet you consider the reference I put for the time being as far worse than nothing. Fine. I'll see what I can find in that book (assuming I can access it). So much for the simple policy of "please place your sources" and "please cite actual historical events." I never knew placing information about an actual event and supporting it with a source was such a controversial action. Do I smell hypocrisy in Wikipedia? Probably, but it smells more like beef stroganoff. So much for informing people about the Fourth International Congress of Thracology on a rudimentary level until I can expand the section. Still, I'll see what I can find in that wonderfully inaccessible book. Over and out. - Deucalionite May 5, 2006 6:47 P.M. EST ( are u kidding if thracians were related to myceneans or greeks dont u think they would have a culture that was simmilar and a languge that was simmilar?look at the murals that were posted below here and see that thracians had there own culture and might even be there own people.

Etymology

Is the etymology of the name Thracian traced to some *PIE root? --Kupirijo 06:47, 30 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Frisk has:

Etymologie unbekannt. Kretschmer Glotta 24, 39ff. erwägt Zusammenhang mit dem Flußnamen Τραυ̃ος (Hdt. 7, 109; Zufluß des Bistonis- Sees) und dem skythischen (od. thrakischen) Volksnamen Τραυσοί (Hdt. 5, 3, St. Byz., H. u. a.). Nach Kretschmer Glotta 26, 56 gehört hierher auch der Windname Θρασκίας (Kreuzung von Θρᾱικ- und Τραυσκ-?).

i.e., etymology unknown, possible connection with Τραυ̃ος (river name) Τραυσοί (ethnonym) and Θρασκίας (name of a wind). dab (𒁳) 11:42, 9 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

how can they be related to myceneaneas (sorry wrong spelling) if they were woudlint they have a simmilar culture but thracians and myceneaneas have a WAY diffrent culture and thracians show a culture simmilar to near eastern/anotolian people more then any people on earth.there dress,look.THRACIANS practiced sacriface of humans wich was only present in NATIVE peoples of near east or south eastern europe.thracians belonged to the eastern med race while greeks/myceneans belong to the west med race.

Wasn't Europa Phoenician?

What's the basis for claiming that Europa is of Thracian origin? Kaicarver 13:48, 2 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

'''PHYSICAL characteristics of the Thracians'''

Some one here keeps trying to pass the Thracians as fair people. Actually all ancient accounts from the Illyrians, Macedons and Greeks describe them as people with dark hair and dark eyes. Nearly all people shown in Thracian tombs (within paintings and mosaics) show this to be true. This is also been the case from excavated Thracian remains where the melanin pigment in the hair and eyes is present in high concentrations. From this evidence we know they mostly had black hair and very brown eyes. All this is referenced in various anthropological books and academic peer reviewed articles. The person who tries to pass them off as fair likely has some sort of racist based inferiority complex and is looking for an ancient civilization of "fair" people to make-up that which he/she feels is missing from the history books. This is unfortunate for you! Next time you use Xenophanes, you should actually reference him from academic material as he actually never described Thracians as fair (meaning blond and blue eyed). Also this person says they showed clear similarities to Iranic peoples, yet that goes right against his/her argument that they were fair, as the Iranic peoples were all noted for their dark features. I'm not talking about some German pseudo-historians in the late 19th - mid 20th century who wanted to take credit for the history of the Ayans by trying to pass them off as fair. Anyone who wants to look at the anthropological and archeological studies will see just how dark they were. Do the research! They were in fact no different from the majority of Iranic peoples today. Anyhow, I am Alexander Alexiev and I am a physical anthropologist. To all other Wikipedians, I hope you truly follow the rules of referencing your statements in academic material and that you will keep unqualified statements from ever coming to the fore on this page again.

A. Alexiev PhD - Physical Anthropology (U. Sofia)

Analysis of Thracian remains confirms high concentrations of melanin in upper derma, hair as well as a solid melanin layer covering the collagen present in the iris, in most cases creating a complete melanin infused layer between the iris and the aqueous humour. This is my area of expertise, and I can tell you are not an expert in Tracology nor in the anthropology. In fact most of your statements are not backed up by any sort of academic references so I suggest you start reading Bulgarian materials to gain some knowledge on the matter. If you place once more the kind of non academic information within this article again I will present the entire edit history and all academic evidence to those Wikipedians that do have authority. I will then have them reference everything to anthropological research findings regarding Thracian physical characteristics and I will do my best to have you disciplined for your non referenced racial theories. Please do motivate me to do so, I will be more than happy to have the excuse...

how dark thracians are!!!

omg i have met a person that really khows how it is i have been studying the thracians for 3 years now and i have found so much evedince from murals the cheekbone shape and many evedince that they were dark feautered,not only did they have black hair and dark eyes they also had brownish tannish skin and they also had a sligtly asiatic skull differing from the european one kinda like a native american skull but not that pure.and i can explain fair haired people in thracian socicity they were the invading cimmerians(east celts)that moved tru thrace up the carpathian mountains and went west.some of the cimmerians intermixed with the thracians and lef there fair hair traits thats why people lie and say that they are related wich they are not.but the cimmerians are the same people that live in the cacasian mountains today the fair haired people in the caucausus are cimmerians or celts.and i also dissagre with the indo european theory im pretty sure that thracians dint have indo european languge because they did arive in thrace before anyone else the indo europeans came i dotn khow how many years after them how do i khow thise??? because the thracian skeleton the found outdates any skeleton or artifact found in europe.i dont khow were the thracians came from but im sure they dint come form the indo european region.and todays bulgarians are slavs mixed with turks in the south and have little thracian blood because by there time the thracians were etinct and wat ever remained of there ansestors and its ponunced the gatae not the gothi like that guy up there said the gothi were a germanic tribe that radided the dunubian and provice of dacia.but thats not the point the gatae had some ansestors left wich lived by the black sea in todays romania and thats were u get dark haired dark skinned and dark eyed romanians because real romanians are dark fetured to isent that a a clue to that thracians were having lived int that area?i have been in romania 3 times and u can always they the mixed people there by u can see the white romanians wich i belive came from slavs,hungarians,and germanic peoples.and u can see the real romanians wich are dark haired dark skinned and dark eyed wich i belive came from dacians or another tribe of thracians.bulgarians also have the same thing they havwe a white class and a dark class of people.and also thatred haired women in the portraite artifact is not thracian orgin its more like byzantine because they found the coin of konstantin the great in there.so before u post something make sure its not like 1000 years off and belongs to the peopel u posted about.

i have a quostion for alixev sorry if i speeled wrong.

when u were studying thracian skeleton or skull did u find any mongolian feutures?

Skull Features

I have not found the Thracian skulls to be similar to the mongoloid type. Also there have been some genetic studies conducted by various academics that confirm the presence of many phenotypes in the Bulgarian popuation that are associated with the Thracians. Genetic markers indicating Thracian ancestry are also found amongst the Romanians, Serbians, Macedonians and Northern Greeks. As for Bulgaria, like any other European country there are both fair and brunette people who make-up the Bulgarian ethnicity. Within a single family you can have brunettes, blondes, red haired relatives along with black, brown, blue, green or hazel eyes. In fact this is quite common and does indeed show that the modern Bulgarian nation is a composite of the dominant Thracian, Slav and Bulgar ethnic groups. It should also be made clear that modern genetic studies show the diversity of Bulgarians to be similar to that of the French, English, Italians, Germans, etc... ... "We" are all mixed regardless of our ethnic background and/or what our physical characterisics are, be them dominant or recessive. In general inter-ethnic mixing tends to strengthen a population over extended periods of time by eliminating 'faulty' genes that cause genetic disorders, which consequently increases the composite group's survivability.

Getting back to the Thracians, my research has led me to see them as having been physically similar to the ancient Greeks and Romans. Generally they can be conceptualized as Southern Europeans and/or Mediterranean Europeans.

so wat??

i taught u said that thracians looked like iranic people?iranic people are much more darker then roman or greek????

lol

how about iranic europeans could u call em that?

huh??skull type

http://www.inrne.bas.bg/Varna2005/sights/varna-3.jpg .... anceint thracian skeleton. but do thracians have hight cheekbones? cuz these skeleton shows these guy with a hight cheek bones and a flat face.

i agree...

i agree with alexeiv on everything exept when he said the chariteristic traits of thracians were simmilar to greek and roman.the characteristics of thracians were more like todays most iranic peoples.thracians were alot darker then greeks or romans.juging from the murals.and juging from alexievs finds about the upper derma.

Greeks and Latins(Romans) as Compared to Thracians

The Greeks and Latins were also dark, similar to Thracians, Illyrians, Macedonians and other S.E. and/or Balkan populations... There aren't many physical differences between these ethnic groups. Anthropological findings conducted on Greeks and Latin "Italian" Romans all shows the same amount of melanin (within xy range) concentrations in derma as modern day Southern Italians. If you are interested in this topic you can easily obtain ancient mosaics and paintings from ancient Roman and/or Greek artists by looking up the subject matter on the internet. (Note: Please search through univesity library websites for reliable information!) If anyone is iterested I can also send you academic materials such as peer reviewed articles that are entirely focused on this subject. Finally, one of the most famous such mosaics is the one depicting Alexander the Great "of Macedon" during a battle with Darius III of Persia. This is the oldest portrait of Alexander and it precisely shows the very same physical features noted amongst the Southern European populations past and present.(ie: high-bridge nasal structure, dark eyes, brown to black hair, etc...) It also shows what the true Aryans (Iranic peoples) looked like in ancient time and how they still look today. Here's a link to this particular mosaic in its entirety:

http://teachers.sduhsd.k12.ca.us/ltrupe/ART%20History%20Web/final/chap5Greece/Alexander%20Confronts%20Darius%20III.jpg

Here's the close-up of Alexander: http://www.utexas.edu/courses/introtogreece/lect33/cAlexanderMosaic2.jpg

Here's a close-up of Darius III: http://www.shc.ed.ac.uk/classics/undergraduate/art/images/DariusIII.jpg

. u said they tested to see if greeks had relations with romans but have they ever tested thracians and greek toghter to see if they had anything else simmilar then just the color of there hair and eyes.? ...but i want to khow about the thracians remains u examenied...all i khow is that u khow that hair and eyes were dark and it had dark complexion but i allready khew that from the start because i read about the women that they found. but they slso suggested that the thracians were threre before the indo european arival meaning that they had a way difrent appearance then any eruopean.again i need to nhow msot of the facts about the skeleton u exameind or seen get examend i need to khow aobut the derma the eye color how u khow and the skull shape.like the cheek bones and the jaw of it.and that u propose that it had a relation ship with the south balkan populations wat gene did u find that moved u to that conclusion.i am not arguing on if greeks or latins were dark becuse i lived by greece and i seen many greek people the majority of greeks were dark so i khow were ur comming from.im not argueing whos dark or not im arguing wat peopel u said they were related to. thracian culture such as way of dress and pottey show that they were closley related to peopel of near east rahter then people of europe wich would show same genes because most people in near east are dark eyed and dark complexion and are also Mediterraneans.but there is a diffence the people of near east have a very iranian/assyrian type people the same way the thracians looked is iranian type rahter then regular south europeans wich do not have a limited number of (bronw haired people) meaning that the consetration of pegments is much stronger in near eastern people not only because of the closeness of the sun but becasue of there ansestors.im sure about 99.9 percent that thracians looke more iranic then south european sieeing as they were the only people in europe to be related to iranic/near eastern peoples.not saying they were related to persians but to other near eastern people living in those areas.

the romans dark???? ahahahahahah only stupid americans can think that , look these desciptions of romans emperors by Suetonius,Pliny,Malalas

http://aycu24.webshots.com/image/40103/2003824465129417098_rs.jpg —Preceding unsigned comment added by GaiusCrastinus (talk • contribs) 12:55, 30 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

how thracians looked.. thracian murals

http://www.ancient-bulgaria.com/images/Thracian_something.jpg

http://www.ancient-bulgaria.com/images/Thracian_horseman_on_hunt.jpg

http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/thumb/e/e5/400px-Aleksandrovo_kurgan.jpg

http://archeologia.bourgas.org/en/images/aleksandrovo.jpg

The exact quote from Xenophanes goes "The Ethiopians say that their gods are flat-nosed and black skinned, while the Thracians say that theirs have blue eyes and red hair. Yet if cattle or horses or lions had hands and could draw and sculpt like men, then the horses would draw their gods Like horses, and cattle like cattle, and each would shape the body of Gods in the likeness of each kind, of their own." Now he says that the Thracians have red hair and blue eyes and in such a way too mark it as common as the black skin of Ethiopians. This can't be completely dismissed surely? Either he was lying to his audience who would have seen straight through him being well acquainted with the appearance of Thracians, or the Thracians worshiped red headed gods, which again doesn't make sense as the point Xenophanes is making is that we make gods to look like ourselves. The last explanation is that there were a fair number of red haired blue eyed Thracians. umm no thracians worshiped dark haired dark eyes gods u see that guy with the axe??that was there most supreme god which means they made him in there own image.they could not see stratigh tru his lie because most greeks have never seen thracians.and another wrongess of thise theory is that ethiopians are the most unsnubed nosed people of the aficans alot of ethiopians are straith nosed showing semetic simmilarity.xenopahnes was probably mislead about the dsicreptions of thracian gods like orpheus,dionsysus,ares wich were corupted by greek histortorians who were acelly PHILOSOPHERS the thracians always decipted in ancient greek art as being dark haired and eyed.and the thracian murals wich where done by thr thracians decept them as dark haired and eyed people with a browned haired minority.but still with a dark/olive skinned compleixion.how about we let the ACTUAL THRACIANS DECIDE WHAT THEY LOOKED LIKE INSTEAD OF A POET/PHILOSOPHER.and also the findiand of academic research on thracians wich show them to have hight consetrations of millinia in upper derma and around iris area wich means they were dark complexiod with dark eyes.with thise evidence from both ancient and modern information we can surly dismiss thise misleading.also if they had a large ammount of red haired people herodoctus would have surley noted on that yet another point wich proves the idea of fair thracians as a lie.thracians surley looked like the hunter murals that THEY have drawn what u think they drew the wrong people???most thracians were accely aboriginal people of southern europe and anotolia.

The murals are interesting, but we're not supposed to engage in original research here on anything, including what the Thracians looked like, so can we have a citation of an academic paper of this research? As far as I understand for instance the Greeks depicted women and men with different pigments, and this probably does not actually depict their actual skin color realistically. Some academic research into this matter would make for a better reference than to ask people to judge for themselves. If multiple different opinions of the way the Thracians look exist which both have a notable following, we should represent each of them in the article, not just one. It appears from your debating it here that there's not exactly a consensus view. Martijn Faassen 22:59, 23 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

look martijn i khow ur trying to stop the argueing so i will keep my opinion in aslong as other people will.

I'm not sure what you mean by that. I just want to make sure the article reflects current scientific reality, and links to murals and judging for ourselves aren't going to make sure of that. What we need to is to get some good academic sources on this. If there is a difference of opinion in academia, the article should reflect that. Martijn Faassen 12:21, 25 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

ya but we do have good scientific evedince because anthropologist have tested thracian remains and have found them to have hight malanin in both iris and upper derma that means that thracians were mostly black haired and dark eyed

Citations please? Let's put citations to this anthropological research in the article. The murals are at most an illustration. They're not great evidence by themselves for the reasons I pointed out. Martijn Faassen 22:35, 30 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

the murals just sopport thise ansewere and the idea of fair thracians is almsot not sopported by anythign but that passsage from Xenophanes and since u allready confiremed that greeks used difffrent pigment for women and man but in reallity it was not thise way.

This is an original conclusion by you, right? Did the greeks generally make up skin coloration when writing about peoples? I just talked about an example of how murals may not give an accurate idea of skin color by themselves because of artistic conventions. A modern comic strip also often doesn't give a very accurate representation of people's skin color. Martijn Faassen 22:35, 30 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

i have allready given an explanation why thise philosopher Xenophanes would say that is because many GODS that were considered thracian gods were corupted by greeks and turned into there own version and since greeks taught that ALL northerns were read haired and blue eyed they probably made there gods look thise way.but in reallity it was not thise way because the guy with the double headed axe is god of thracians and look the way they descibed him black haired and very dark eyed with olive darkish skin. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.227.172.119 (talk) 20:29, 26 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Your explanation is interesting, but if that is your original idea, it doesn't belong in wikipedia. If it comes from another source, please give us a source and we can quote it in the article. So far the only sources I heard of are Xenophanes, who says they were fair, and the murals, which can be used as interpretations they're dark, but can also have other interpretations. The anthropological research would be extremely helpful in making things more clear. Martijn Faassen 22:35, 30 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

vlachs

the vlachs were not romanized dacians the vlachs were romans and there colonists who were mostly mixed with the slavs that settled in that area it was reported by and italian historian that alot of them had particular color of eyes meaning blue or green eyes and brown hair wich proves that they were mostly mixed with slavs who settled there.and vlachs were not the ansestors of all romanians they were the ansestors of south romanians the provonice wallachia that is were the wlachs,vlachs lived and ansestors are only in that area not of all present day romanians there were other pricipalites and all of them had diffrent people living there like moldovia and transalvania they were diffrent people who spoke a common languge because of the geographical region.so please do not place vlachs as ansestors of romanians or even more wrong romanized dacians the vlachs were one of the people and belonged to the south pricipality so place vlachs as people of the wallachian pricipalaty not of all romanians and deffinetly not of romanized dacians. Why diferent people speak same language? I was ther a Romanian empire under Asanov brothers, who forced them to speak same language? The romans retreat somewere in 3rd century at south of danube, and slaves comes in 5 century, If in the north of the danube the latin was mixed with dacian, carpian, whatever language, how from the mix of slavic and latin resulted the same language? what is the name of that famous italian hystorian? What is very clear is that, concerning the origin of romanians, when hungarian nationalist hystorians and bulgarian nationalist hystorinas will agree abuout the subject, will be very clear that romanians came somewere around XIX century from outerspace, carried out by aliens, till they agree still, nobody will know for sure the origin of the vlachs, still I belive that are some sources who can make an objective opinion. Personaly i belive that all romanians are the ancestors of the modern bulgarians, why bulgatrians speak a diferent language? Is there is a simple answer: because of the geographical region.lol really i can see u dont khow history WHILE THE ROMANS THEMSELVES REATREDED FROM DACIA THE COLONISTS FROM ALL OVER THE EMPIRE WHO SPOKE "LATIN" STILL CONTUNUED TO COLONIZE DACIA VLACHS NOR ALOT OF ROMANIANS DONT LOOK LIEK THRACIANS AT ALL THRACIANS HAD BLACK HAIR AND "VERY" BROWN EYES AND OLIVE SKIN.MOST OF VLACHS WERE BROWN HAIRED AND BROWN EYED WICH SHOWS THEY WERE VERY MIXED PEOPLE.HAZEL ECT.WHY WOULD THRACIANS SPEAK LATIN LANGUGE IF THEY WERENT OVER POPULATED WHY WOULD THRACIANS IN BULGARIA SPEAK SLAVIC IF THEY WERE OVER POPULATED???THE ANSWERE IS SIMPLE IN ROMANI AND BULGARIA THERE ARE ONLY INDUVIDULAS OR PHENOTYPES WHO ARE DECEDENTS OF THRACIANS THOSE PHENOTYPES SHOULD be "most" with black hair dark eyes and olive skin.there is no simple answeres for thise ae u saying that history is not complecated at all??in bulgaria it is diffrent story because the romans that killed em of or ASSIMILATED THEM WERE THE BYZANTIUM ROMANS. Some sorce says that in Dacian wars 50.000 dacian were killed or send in slavery, others say that even in Roman times in areas of what was Bizantine empires people speak greek language. There is no simple answers if you want to demonstrate tahat the ancestors from Balkans were ethnically pure. Because I belkive that that population from this area coexisted without having this problem, Roman colonist with gots, and slavs, Bulgars and cumans and pecenegs, or vlachs an bulgars. And so the historians don't have the concept of etnicity, for this this reason some bisantine historians name Hungarians daci :)lol really u khow why byzantine historians named hungarians daci because they lived in dacian lands not becasue they looked same and i want to khow where u got the source where byzantines called hungarians daci plz listm website or academic inforamtion.and what u said is exactylly my point the balkans is as mixed as any other region in europe u cant really say that any one is decedents of any one because of the divercity of people.but the thracians on the other hand where mostly thracian ehtnic group and people who are decedetns of them are black haired and dark eyd and OLIVE skinned as thracians were a mix of ABORIGINALS and indo european invaders but most of the thracians still looked more aboriginal then indo european with slitghly curled hair some had very stratigh hair.so my point is vlachs could not have been decedents of dacians because first they dint look like them and second the vlachs spoke a LATIN LANGUGE.wich proves indepented roman colonists still settled the lands from the west.I'll came back with references ( i'm not quite sure if there was Ana Comnena). Still the Romanian Museum of Cluj present Tracians like 1.50 m, red hair and very strog features, nor caucazian not aborigenal :) But this all isuue can be solved as hu8ngarian Ministry of health tried : they recover adn form two cuman necropolis, and comared adn with Hungarian people and with some diferent people from europe. Result ? Not quite godd from political stand. The only result published is that the Cumanas share agreat diversity of genes, lol. We can do same thing with thracians ... Still if you say that vlachs were not tracians/dacian why not to say that they were latinised gots, the gots were here, they go is hispania, and there after the gots invasion is a latin people, is the same probability, is an hypotesis not a fact :) And by the way can you tell where the frygian origin of the tracians originate, I've encounter this in a hystory book?ok while all anthopologists and thracian murals present them with black hair dark eyes and olive skin ey i think the sinetists are lieng lol =D amazing how much u want to do to lie.they have found thracians tablets and there langue thas not at all match frygian one.they had there own langue branch or group.and stop confusing aboriginal with the australian aboriginals im talking about the thracian aboriginals wich had there own eastern race.i dont care what some musem presetns them as i seen in america musem present native americans with brith red hair so lol why would i care at all what some one made out of a plastic dummy???if u base ur results on dummys it shows how much of a dummy u are i base my results ON ATCUAL THRACIANS MURALS AND ACADEMIC REASECH AND ALL SHOW THRACIANS TO BE BLACK HAIRED PEOPLE WITH DARK EYES AND "olive" skin color.why are u bringing cumans into thise conversation i dont care who they were im talking about thracians and ur tryign to state false facts about them.lol so in ur oppinion vlachs were thracians lol???evfen toguth they dint look liekt them and the very first quetion to u is why would a tribal people like thracians adopt a latin languge if they werent over populated by invaders or colonists???why do u think that a whole nation would learn latin from 3000 people???but again u can belive in thise plastic dummy in the musem to fill the missing pages of history jsut as alixeiv said rather then archeological finds or the fact that most thracians thracians were black haired dark eyed and olive skinned juging on the malanin in upper derma.ye ok plastic dummy says more =D.i can see that u are hungarian tough well i want u to khow that im not a natinolists because most bulgarians or romanians are not decedents of thracians at all.i just state facts that are proved acedemicaly and by arheological finds while ur stating stuff like plasitc dummys in musems andnot acceul accedemic reaserch of the skull i dont need any dna or anythign all i need is the ammmount of malanin of the skeleton and i can tell wheher what race he was.well it is same as dna test but u khwo what i mean =D and those murals up there i want to nkow ur opinion on those =D what u think thracians drew the wrong people???and they show those people with lightly curled hair like other thracian arts cofirm just go to external links on thise article u will see.so i dont get ur point in ur opinion thracians drew the wrong people and they spoke latin and not thracian lol i think not =D espicialy when academic proff proves thise to be right and all the proff u got is a plastic dummy in a musem =D same thing as they showed attila with red hair and light eyes =D and most scientist who are correct sayt hat thracians were aboriginals mixed with indo europeans or are the sicetists lieng about that to??lol but since the genes of aboriginals were more stronger msot thracians still looked like aboriginals and thise is wat an aborigianl fo southern europe looked like LIGHTLY CURLED HAIR USSUALY BLACK OR DARK DARK EYES WITH SOMEWHAT NARROW SLITS FOR EYES DARK OR VERY BROWN EYES SKIN WAS INTERMETIADTE OR OLIVE SKIN COLOR and all the phenotyopes of thracians found in romanian or bulgarian population show thise to be tru as all phenotypes show that they are black haired olive skinned and dark eyed with ANOTOLIAN facial feutures.

The museum dummyes are generaly made by antroplogists, but you can find even your melanin. By the way you know what is the semnification of the Daci for ancient greek speakers? It means SLAVES :) who cares what there name meant from greeks?? we are talking about how they looked.those dummys were not made by antopologists just as the dummys in america arent made by antopologists but by common people who study history.in the prehistoric tomb u posted what were u trying to prove with that??if those dummys were made by antopologists then it would of shown them with black ligly curled hair dark eyes and olive skin because thats what the malanin presents them to be and there murals.AND THATS ACCELY HOW THEY LOOKED.i dont get what u are trying to prove when everything has allready been proven.=D but plz do explain what u were trying to prove with the tomb picture ??

what he meant

when alixeiv said there are genitic markers indicating thracian ansestry among romanians bulgarians ect he meant that some people amosgst those have a mixed thracian ansestry meaning that not many people are but they are still found amosgst those people it dosent eman that those people have decended from thracians wich can be found wronglly boht by history and science.no people have thracian ansestry they just have people amosgst them who have a mixed asnsestry.and thracians dint become hellenized in thrace them became dead by roman colonists and legions killed most of them off the ones who have not been killed fleed away.where are u getting ur historical resources??

i also have a quistion for alexiev

today in iran all the way to india they have found fair people in iranic populations where do thesse people come from i want to ask ur opinion as im focused on thise subject.

Map selection

My map my map offers more info and is better looking than jigiby's jingiby's.I suggest we use only mineMegistias (talk) 11:31, 13 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

accusations of vandalism

I originally removed the Bulgarians reference as I saw no relevance to it in the context was missing and I didn't see what Bulgarians had to do with a section discussing the ethnic type of ancient Thracians. I've cleared up the context in another way now. Monshuai, I do not appreciate your continued accusation of vandalism (as in the edit history), or any other accusations. I make my edits in good faith. Your continued implications that I do not are very wearying. Martijn Faassen (talk) 00:56, 7 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Faassen, I will continue to accuse and contain those who vandalize articles... I will also retain the history of what that person has done so that my debate oriented memory will remain fresh for future discussions such as the one we're having yet again. I know you hate the fact that it has been proven both through genetic studies, anthropological studies and cultural studies that Bulgarians are mainly of Thracian descent, so now as a last resort you start deleting parts of direct quotes from academics who are experts in their respective professions. After all, it was you who constantly said that there is little to no connection between ancient Thracians and modern Bulgarians, but now that I keep placing academic studies to show that in fact the civilizational as well as biological link between the former and the latter is proven, you start talking about what you see as irrelevant. From my experience with you I know that you do not act in good faith, because everytime "Bulgaria" gets mentioned in a way that connects it to its ancient past, you go on and try to delete the academic proof. This is wonderful, I get to argue and embarass you once again. Thank you for making my day! I hope you make it tomorrow too! :) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Monshuai (talk • contribs) 05:01, 7 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sigh. Martijn Faassen (talk) 02:23, 8 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

In my effort to make your day again, I am sure you are very happy with the new citation I added. Martijn Faassen (talk) 02:39, 8 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

By the way, there is a more recent paper by Cardos which does indicate genetic kinship with Romanians, from the summary. Unfortunately I cannot find more than the summary, quoted on this page: http://www.inblogs.net/dienekes/search/label/Hungarians. P1192. Paleomolecular genetic analyses (mitochondrial and nuclear DNA polymorphisms) on some Thracian populations from Romania, dating from the Bronze and Iron Age It'd be good if we could find a copy of that. Martijn Faassen (talk) 02:42, 8 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I also ask you again to stop calling my edits "vandalism". I edit in good faith. My edits are not perfect; this is why we do this on a wiki. If you disagree with my edits, please have a calm discussion instead of accusing me and taking an confrontational attitude. It is unbecoming to let it show so clearly that you like to humiliate me. Martijn Faassen (talk) 02:44, 8 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

u are the real vandalist thise is a talk board where peopel bring theories in but u delete there therieos becuase u think ur so smart that u are the only one right when im sure u have no evedeince to soppurt or to deny anythign posted on here the mural was proff because if they dint draw the people rightly why did they draw the horse right???the dog??and why does the mural painting fall in with the proof that modern anthropologist that examiened thracian remains malanin ammount fall togther that they were infact as dark as they drew themselves in the mural.that is poof where is ur proof? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.19.116.191 (talk) 16:34, 12 January 2008 (UTC) and also to the guy saying that romanians and bulgarians are MAINLY OF THRACIAN DECENT and not that the thracians MADE A BIG IMPACT ON THOSE POPULATIONS where is ur proff i read the deinekes page and it says that the thracians only contributed to those populations.[reply]

Could you be a bit more clear about what you'd like to be changed to the article? I'm afraid I have trouble understanding you. If there are academic sources that discuss ethnicity of Thracians in respects of melanin level or evidence based on murals, let's have them added to the article. Since you mention theories, Wikipedia has a policy of not adding original research to articles (i.e. research that cannot be backed up by pointing to external sources). Martijn Faassen (talk) 20:57, 12 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thracian appearance

Thracians were not dark and they were not Mediterraneans. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.99.217.117 (talk) 21:53, 25 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thracian physical appearance

Hey I have read this discussion page and the thracian main page and it has a bit of nonsence. This is because it states that thracians are dark and mediterranean and also like the modern day iranians. That is a total garbage. Thracians were like cimmerians and were fair in complexion. Also there is reference about thracians being related to the Swedes and a few other Scandinavians. Another source considers that the Swedish ancestors were Thracians. Thracians numbered second in population after the Indians in the ancient days and they had scattered and settled in many places in central and northern Europe. Albanians, Romanians, Bulgarians and some western Balkan states are considered of having the most Thracian in them and none of these populations are dark and like Iranians. Also other central europeans state that they have Thracian ancestry. No Iranians or other western Asiatic/middle eastern countries have Thracian ancestry because they are mostly of Arab, Turkic and a few Anatolian ancestry. Xenophane's quote even says that Thracians are light with red hair. Even in films and other artistic pictures show Thracians as having Western characteristics. I have read some sources about its archaeology and considers them as also having European characteristics similar to the Nordics.