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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by OrionClemens (talk | contribs) at 00:32, 8 February 2008. The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Oxford Round Table

Oxford Round Table (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)

Oxford Round Table (ORT) is a minor business venture that involves a conference organised by an American company but convened in an Oxford college. Some Oxonians are incensed by this, and there has been a small amount of brouhaha on forums as a result, but the sources do not indicate that this is actually notable or significant, only that it exists. A short piece in the TES, for example, but that does not establish the supposed notability of the company. Most of the sources are either primary (business registration data) or not independent (the company's own website); much of the article reads as orignial research (e.g. the linking of the for-profit and non-profit companies, and the statement that they are members of the same family, which has no source; it's not an especially uncommon surname); and most of the substantive edits, including initial creation, have been made by single purpose accounts on one side or other of the external dispute, most of them heavily conflicted. Add to this a new twist: a complaint to the Foundation, discussing legal action being taken against one of the activists pushing in the direction of criticism and negative material. In my opinion, this article is more trouble than it is worth, given the marginal notability of the subject and the fact that the article itself exists, per present evidence, almost exclusively as a battleground for an off-wiki dispute. Guy (Help!) 21:00, 6 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It appeared that we were close to consensus among all parties (including one representing the ORT) until the Oxford Round Table came in yesterday with apparent legal threats. As Tony Sidaway points out on the talk page for this article, what you describe as a "new twist" is actually an ORT person's description of something that happened in May 2007, prior to the filing of the lawsuit. You do not specify whether a legal threat has been made to the Wikimedia Foundation; I would be interested to know if that is the case.

Meanwhile, I have begun working on sourcing for the family connections, as you will see on the article's talk page. However, I doubt that the ORT can seriously be disputing that Kern Alexander III is the son of Kern Alexander, Jr.Academic38 (talk) 22:09, 6 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • No threats were made, as I understand it there is legal action in process against one of the individuals who appears incidentally to be editing this article. Inserting content and then "working on sourcing" it is a bad idea; source first, then add it. Guy (Help!) 22:16, 6 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Are you saying that Sloan Mahone is working on this article? I think that would be a very dumb thing for her to do. As for content, I agree that sourcing first is correct, but I had not imagined that asserting that XYZ III is XYZ Jr.'s son could be controversial. While "Alexander" may be a common name, all of the men in it have K's in their name: Kern Jr., Kern III, King, Klint, and they all appear as directors in various combinations in over 20 corporations the Alexander family has established in Florida, Kentucky, and Illinois. Not even anyone on the ORT side has objected to these assertions of relationship.Academic38 (talk) 16:52, 7 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete Weak keep - Contributors to this article, while many operate as WP:SPA, do seem to be steadily improving their approach towards editing the article, working towards achieving consensus on the talk page and avoiding continued edit warring, which demonstrates that even editors with a clear conflict of interest can be brought together to work towards improving content on Wikipedia. Neither COI nor SPA are grounds for article deletion; both are only guidelines, they are not policies. As WP:SPA specifically states: "such accounts are permitted". There also appears to be little disruption to the encyclopedia as a whole, as a result of COI activity on this one article. The disputes and edit warring between involved parties (aside from it quietening down now) are limited to this one entry. In terms of notability; the organisation itself does seem notable: Oxford colleges hosting ORT events have noted as much on their websites (e.g. here), it is reported in valid secondary sources (e.g. here, here and here), and notable academics have been in attendance at ORT events (e.g. Michael_Beloff and Norbert_Lammert). It seems as if it's notable within academic circles. These are just a few cursory references dug up from a Google search: I haven't taken part in any searches for citations but I am certain that if those are to be found in ten minutes there are more fitting and solid references to be found. What this article needs is improvement by way of neutral editors working to establish WP:NPOV. The article is not irredeemable. In addition, I don't recall legal threats to Wikimedia Foundation being grounds for article deletion, per WP:CENSOR and WP:NLT, but if I'm wrong on that then let me know with some examples. ColdmachineTalk 22:50, 6 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • In answer to the question about legal threats: Probably the closest analog are the BLP standards. Of course the context is different, but I think the spirit "marginal notability => respect wishes of the subject" may be appropriate to follow over to this case.--Nilfanion (talk) 02:09, 7 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • I've switched my !vote to delete: really, I had been trying to help the SPA editors come together to reach consensus, and it seemed like progress was being made: I posted on ANI to request help but the community ignored this; some neutral editors did finally come along and again it looked like progress was being made. This AfD has merely drawn everyone into partisan lines once more, and I am offended by two accusations which fail to assume good faith about my editing intentions on this entry. I am recusing myself from the article, switching my !vote to delete, and don't wish to be contacted about this entry. It's really not worth the energy I've been expending. ColdmachineTalk 09:11, 7 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • comment This is very unfortunate, but it demonstrates the effects that the ORT's bullying has. I suggest it is wrong for Wikipedia to let itself be bullied.
  • delete - I worked on this a bit sometime back, and found that there are very few reliable sources to establish notability of the company. It likely fails a strict interpretation of the company notability guideline. --Rocksanddirt (talk) 23:08, 6 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • delete - I've been reading through the CHE forums and this page. (I have been researching the topic trying to decide whether or not to attend the conference). Although I understand many of the concerns raised, it appears the only solid source of evidence in support of the controversial components of this page (which sadly seem to undergird most of the page's existence) is an article summing up the claims made in the forum. I'm not sure why this particular venue is so polarizing, but as a journalist, I would never consider a summary of an Internet forum as an authoritative source worthy of inclusion in a publication, physical or electronic. This entry was of little help to me, and seemed based more on conjectured and unanswered (unsupported, anyway) questions than sourced information. Jrichardstevens (talk) 23:57, 6 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • keep - I am one of the SPA accounts (I gather it is important to be up-front about that). My opinion probably won't count for much, but I will offer a bit of data for your consideration, in relation to notability: a search for "Oxford Round Table" on Nexis produces 147 hits in the category of newspaper articles. Entirely normal newspapers, such as the Philadelphia Inquirer and the Cleveland Plain Dealer. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 00:25, 7 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • keep Part of the notability of the ORT is the infamy itself, that is, if they are visible enough (which seems to be the case) then readers will in fact look here to research them, e.g. in deciding whether to submit a contribution or to attend. So even if ORT were outright fraud, it would be disservice to delete the article. However, note that Oxford can summarily dump them at any time for any reason; it's not like landlords wanting to break a lease with a troublesome tenant. The mere fact that the conference continues to be held at Oxford, when some object to their use of the name, suggests notability. Believe me, if I held a KKK rally by renting Duke's gym during the off-season, and called it "KKK, Duke Chapter" they'd throw me out in a heartbeat. It looks like the article has serious difficulties with numerous concerned editors (concerned one way or another) but our difficultly presenting the material correctly is not in itself a reason to dump the article. The article subject seems both notable and useful, even if the article presentation is quarrelsome. Pete St.John (talk) 01:07, 7 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • The infamy, what is that being based on? We have one reliable independent source that actually gives us info. That one source hardly proves that ORT is a evil organisation, it doesn't even demonstrate that ORT is all that controversial - merely that contributors to the forums object to it. (They may be evil, but no reliable source actually demonstrates that).--Nilfanion (talk) 01:50, 7 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • As a researcher who found this page as I was trying to decide whether or not to attend, let me offer my refutation to the notion that this article is a valuable device for people in my position. It does not appear many (if ANY) of the critics driving this "controversy" have actually been to the gathering. The discussion forum widely cited appears driven mostly mostly on speculation and snarky comments (and some admittedly crack online research, though mostly focused on resolving specious claims and questions). How can a venue be "infamous" only in the eyes of those who haven't attended? Why do their voices (whether first hand or second hand) warrant the authority necessary to justify this "controversy's" existence? I see little difference between this event and the myriad of conferences that promote their venues as an attractive component of the package. I am not an editor for this article and will not become one. But please don't venture to speak for me or those in my position on such flimsy pretense.Jrichardstevens (talk) 06:32, 7 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete Only a marginal demonstration of notability, and the organisation doesn't appear to meet the relevant guideline. The news articles I checked all refer either to ORT in passing, not as the article's subject, or to a different organisation entirely (fireworks?). The external dispute boiling over to Wikipedia isn't directly relevant, but doesn't help with the article's quality at all or make the subject any more notable.--Nilfanion (talk) 02:09, 7 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment – 147 newspaper articles (as per Nexis search on “Oxford Round Table”) – how on earth does this not meet the guideline on notability? Pittsburgh Post-Gazette, February 20, 2000, “Superintendent To Join Oxford's Round Table”; Albuquerque Journal, September 8, 2004, “Pastor Attends Oxford Meeting”; Charleston Gazette, April 25, 2003, “State native goes to Oxford forum” – I’m sure no one wants me to go extend this list further here, but it could easily be done. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 09:46, 7 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
These articles are about the various individuals, not the organisation. They don't establish that the organisation is notable, merely that people go to it (which is obvious), we need articles about ORT to establish notability.--Nilfanion (talk) 11:07, 7 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
No, the articles are about the participation of the individuals in the event organised by the organisation. The reason for the writing/publication of the articles is (participation in) the event, not the attributes/qualities of the individuals. A reporter or editor who writes/publishes an article about someone going to ORT does so because participation in the event seems significant. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 11:52, 7 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete As a person who found the ORT Wikipedia page on the web because a professor thought the conference was very informative and interesting, I am a bit disturbed how individuals can come on this forum and gloss over the conference itself, but highlight the 'controversy'. I have been viewing this page in silence, sometimes, and it just seems so pointless. More people are attempting to cover minor gossip, than have an informative article! I can see everyone's prospective, but I just think it make Wikipedia look very unreliable when the article acts more as a gossip column than a strictly fact-filled article. Just my thoughts!! LAstride (talk) 03:15, 7 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong keep It is admitted on all sides that there is notable controversy over this organisation; therefore it is notable and should have an article. Argument over the content of the article belongs elsewhere. We do not delete articles because the might contain unsourced material if it is not removed, because people threaten legal action over it, or because different entities dispute the status. We edit it in a neutral fashion. I have no knowledge or interest with respect to this organisation in particular. i do have a very strong feeling that we must never let outside influences dictate the contents of wikipedia, or make sufficient inconveniences that we abandon our own neutrality. Editors who despair of getting their own way on an article often propose to delete it: they should be ignored. DGG (talk) 04:11, 7 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Is there a notable controversy? We have just one source on that subject. The editors involved on both sides have strong feelings about the dispute, but that does not mean that their fight is worth our time to document.--Nilfanion (talk) 11:07, 7 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Another SPA here. I would like to second DGG's comment that editors despairing of not getting their own way vote for deletion. That seems to be the case with ORT people here. As for the relevant guideline, there is one article specifically about the controversy that is independent and quoted all sides. Moreover, that guideline says that being a national or international organization is grounds for considering in notability, and the ORT certainly meets that criterion. Then there is the article by Richard Margrave in The Times of November 1, 1993, specifically discussing a meeting of the ORT. The article does get demerits because he was a participant, but a quick Google search turns up plenty of evidence that he is an important person in UK education. So, I would suggest by the guideline Nilfanion cited, the ORT is already notable. Also, what if the THES does a follow-up piece (for example, when the UK lawsuit is resolved, as it will be one way or another) or the ORT people produce the independent sources they claim to have on the article's talk page? Notability will be even more strongly established, and all the work that has gotten close to consensus would be wasted, if the article is deleted.

BTW, I am sure Nilfanion is correct that the fireworks organization named Oxford Round Table is a different organization. It appears to be based in Oxford.Academic38 (talk) 06:08, 7 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

comment - the challenge is that the reliable sources are not available to establish notability. There are notable people involved with the conferences, notable people object to them on internet forums, summaries of internet forum discussions are published in ordinarily reliable sources. --Rocksanddirt (talk) 06:26, 7 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
comment The 1993 article in The Times that I mention does not fall into this category. It is a story about educational change in the former Soviet Union, focusing on an Oxford Round Table devoted to this issue. I can supply it to you if you do not have access.Academic38 (talk) 16:52, 7 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]


  • Extremely Strong Delete I agree with the Guy. Nomoskedasticity, Academic2007, Academic38 and the extremely transparent "neutrality" of Coldmachine all have personal stake in the issue of Oxford Round Table, it shows because some of these people post apparently to a blog which defames the ORT. I have information regarding the organization that is true, and to some people, may be seem as positive traits. I have gotten shot down, called a 'marketer' and an "insider." All I want to do is highlight the purpose of the ORT, since I know what it is and can cite sources. When more time is spent creating and maintaining a 'controversy' section as opposed to the subject of the article, there is indeed a problem. The above message has soon ridiculous quote about neutrality; I mean, seriously, have you ever read the talk page or seen the history of the article? Well, you probably have since you've never posted before (yeah, right) on the ORT article and decided today to assume a different identify to weigh in on keeping the page. You speak of not deleting articles with unsourced materials, but what about people who are so wrapped you in ridiculousness that they delete cited materials because it didn;t highlight the controversy further; but rather ACTUAL (cited)INFORMATION about the subject. I'm not buying your argument DGG or Nomoskedasticity or Coldmachine or whoever identity you assumed tonight. As you can see, I am frustrated at this non-sense. Best Obscuredata (talk) 06:23, 7 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Please comment on content, not on contributors. (regardless of how you feel about them). --Rocksanddirt (talk) 06:28, 7 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: Please see Wikipedia's no personal attacks policy. Comment on content, not on contributors. Personal attacks damage the community and deter users. Note that continued personal attacks will lead to blocks for disruption. Please stay cool and keep this in mind while editing. Thank you.. Let's be clear: 1. I don't have a blog, so how can I be posting to one about the ORT (which, by the way, I don't, but if you have proof then please display it for everyone to see); 2. I came in to the ORT article when the University of Oxford article, which I nominated and worked on to bring it up to GA status, mentioned it and the controversy (I think a link was included or something). I saw the debate, saw the problems, and tried to work towards bringing editors towards a consensus on the changes being made. I posted on ANI requesting help with this. I am extremely offended by your casual throwaway remarks about my involvement being biased; you have no grounds whatsoever for this accusation and I consider this a personal attack. ColdmachineTalk 08:55, 7 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I consider it a personal attack when I am accused of having a conflict of interest and that was never confirmed. Stop your personal attacks Coldmachine. Thank you. Obscuredata (talk) 23:40, 7 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Quick Add-On!! Academic38.. Why must you keep talking about the controversy?!?! All I want to do is get accurate information about the organization of it and post it; not one aspect that developed probably 3 or months ago. I have wanted to talk about updating the paper so it contains more information on ORT and you all shot it down as marketing. In Wikipedia terms, is accurate, truthful information marketing? I hope not! As I understand it, the organization has existed for 20 years and the 'controversy' section is longer than the opening paragraph!! You are biased and have something against ORT; I don't believe the article has any validity in its current state and if it continues, it will be nothing more than a power struggle in which all of you gang up on me. How is that productive to Wikipedia and the people that rely on it for information? It's not, and the article should be removed! Obscuredata (talk) 06:34, 7 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Notability is established when secondary sources report on a topic. As you will see above, I pointed to two such secondary sources, one from 1993 in The Times that discusses an ORT session on education in the former Soviet Union, and one from 2007 in the Times Higher Education that discusses the controversy. FYI, the ORT thread on the Chronicle began in November 2006, and it was only in December 2007 that THE decided it was worth reporting on.Academic38 (talk) 16:52, 7 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry about that, but when truth is compromised, I get frustrated. Obscuredata (talk) 06:47, 7 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • Delete WP:SPS states that forum postings are not reliable sources. --Nick Dowling (talk) 07:12, 7 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak delete as a marginally notable corporation. I'm not sure that controversy, by itself, makes a group notable. Take my discussion with a grain of salt, as I was one of the contributors to this article whose edits have been deleted. I attempted to remove the cruft and stubbify it. My actions, ultimately, were not successful. Comment: my understanding of libel law (which I teach, BTW) is that, under NY law, a corporation can not be a plaintiff in a libel case, but I am not certain of FL law (which applies to WP, being incorporated in that state). After a year at WP, this is one of the few times I've been truly conflicted about a discussion. Bearian (talk) 14:02, 7 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. This is clearly a content dispute, rather than a a dispute about whether this is a notable subject. Plenty of press articles have been cited which are about people attending, or being invited to, this conference, meaning that reliable sources have recognised this as a notable subject, as well as the Times Educational Supplement article about the controversy. User:Obscuredata, who !voted for an extremely strong delete, said that (s)he had cited information which could go in the article. That this information exists is a demonstration that this is a notable subject which should have an article. Deleting articles because they are controversial would be a breach of the spirit of WP:NPOV. Discussion about content should continue on the talk page. Phil Bridger (talk) 19:17, 7 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I had cited information, but because others decided it was 'marketing' and not worthy of being in the article, I guess it does not count; so therefore it must not be notable for Wiki standards. Article should be deleted. Obscuredata (talk) 23:51, 7 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • There is absoulutely a content dispute, but the reason to delete is not related to that. There is talk of reliable sources that establish notability, but they really don't seem to. If you look at the references in the article the TES one is likely fine for the controversy (moderate for establishing notability), there are a number of primary sources about the company and it's officers (not good for establishing notability), lots from the companies website and related websites (not good for establishing notability), and several from reliable sources about notable people going to the conference (doesn't seem to me that these establish notability of the company/conference). --Rocksanddirt (talk) 19:43, 7 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]


KEEP! The ORT is certainly notable within academic circles. OrionClemens (talk) 00:32, 8 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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