Talk:Niten Ichi-ryū

This article is in need of grammar correction. While quite interesting, it feels to me like it was written by someone who has English as a second language. It could be made more clear and concise.

Two Katanas vs Katana and Wakazashi

I am under the understanding that Niten Ichi is predominantly practised with two katana, and not with a katana and wakazashi pair. What little I recall of Musashi's writings I think he recommended training right from the beginning with two katana, as he regarded this as the most desirable practice and said it would be difficult to have the off-hand un-learn the wakazashi in order to pick up a katana. --Enlashok 22:28, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

From what I recollect, fighting would usually be done with the daisho; the twin katana thing I'd only heard for training. --Gwern (contribs) 00:49, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

No, the 'two katana' is a mistake in one of the English translations (Victor Harris) but other translations (Tokitsu, Cleary etc) do not translate Musashi's text with this error in. Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu's 'Nito Seiho' is done with kodachi (short sword) in the left hand and odachi (long sword) in the right. - BigScottUK 21:08, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Kuroyama Roiyaru?

I have edited out "Kuroyama Roiyaru" from the lineage. Please see Kenji Tokitsu's "Miyamoto Musashi: His Life and Writings" pp. 130-131, William Scott Wilson's "The Lone Samurai" p. 178, and Imai Masayuki's "Miyamoto Musashi: Dokkodo, Niten Ichi Ryu Seiho" p.127 (japanese language). Terao Kumenosuke Nobuyuki was a direct student of Miyamoto Musashi and received direct transmission from him. There was no one in between. The name "Kuroyama Roiyaru" seems unlikely; there is no reference to it anywhere I have looked, and the name "Roiyaru" is not in my Japanese name dictionary. It is, however, an english loanword for "Royal". Therefore there is no reason for this name in the list. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 206.248.137.132 (talk) 22:19, 11 January 2007 (UTC).

Succession

I'd like to discuss the inclusion of the other successor of the seito line, Yoshimoti Kyoshi, in this article. For more information, please refer to:

• [[1]]
• [[2]]

The reasons are:

• Yoshimoti Kyoshi was chosed by the family of the late Kiyonaga Fumiya as his successor in may 2007. The same happened 30 years ago, when the Kiyonaga family posthumously recognized Imai Massyuke as successor of Kiyonaga Tadanao.

• The japanese budo community has a deep recognition of Gosho Motoharu and Yoshimoti Kyoshi as Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu representatives. They constantly represents the ryu in major events. For example, only this year: Kyoto Taikai, All Japan Naginata Championship and the Miyamoto Yori Taikai in KOKURA. This month Kendo Nippon, the most important publication of Kendo and Kobudo, made an article about Yoshimoti Sensei and the succession of Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu.

• Nihon Kobudo Kyokai clearly states that they register only one representative per ryu, but that doen't mean that there aren't other successors. Nihon Kobudo Kyokai recognizes that Imai Massyuke chose to have three successors in 2003.

• There were a legal action moved by Iwami Toshio requesting the sole possession of the Bokuto of Miyamoto Musashi, today in guard of the Usa city temple and available to the three successors of Imai Massayuke or their successors. The action was denied by Japanese court in July 2007, thus making a legal antecedent against his recognition as sole successor. The court decided that there were other successors with the right to have access to the Bokuto and that the property must continue with the Usa Shrine.

• Gosho Motoharu was the teacher of Imai Massayuke. When Imai Massayuke became soke, he was in the ryu for less than one year. Gosho Motoharu was the responsible for teaching him and the other members of th ryu untill 1988.

• The transmission of Menkyo Kaiden was interrupted in Imai Massayuke. Imai Massyuke didn't received Menkyo Kaiden in Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu. Gosho Motoharu is the most senior member of the ryu alive who has Menkyo Kaiden, received in 1955. Yoshimoti Kyoshi received Menkyo Kaiden from Gosho Motoharu in 1999. Thus, he is the only successor nowadays who comes from a unbronken line in Menkyo Kaiden transmission.

Given this, and respecting the proposal of Wikipedia to be open and neutral, it should be included Yoshimoti Kyoshi as 12 successor (Junidai) of the Seito Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu (succeeding Kiyonaga Fumiya, daijuichi) and of Mr. Chin Kin, of Taiwan, as daijuichi.

In the dispute section of this article it could be explained that Iwami Toshio Gensho don't recognize the other as successors and that he is not recognized as soke for the other successors, but as a daijuichi successor.

--NitenBr 17:33, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Right! lets go through this again

I've noticed that Gosho-ha is again pushing its POV down the throat of this article yet again. Obviously they wont be able to see facts but here they are anyways: The HNIR tradition has one headmaster: Iwami Toshio Gensho, the 11th in line. There is no 12th leader like the Gosho-ha tradition article claims. This fact is recognised by the Nihon Kobudo Kyokai and the Nihon Kobudo Shinkokai. They recognise two lineages of HNIR, neither of which are Gosho-ha: 兵法二天一流剣術（福岡） - Hyoho Niten Ichi-ryu (Fukuoka) 野田派二天一流剣術（熊本） - Noda-ha Niten Ichi-ryu (Kumamoto)

None of the above traditions and orgs recognise the Gosho-ha claim to sole, or otherwise shared leadership of the HNIR tradition under Iwami Toshio. The official HNIR tradition, regardless if Gosho-ha wishes to recognise this t or not, is led by Iwami Toshio. The lineage in English can be found here which is the official site of Hyakute Colin, a Menkyo Kaiden (complete License holder in a MA-system), who also belongs to the official HNIR line under Iwami Toshio.

These changes of the main HNIR article to try and reflect that Gosho-ha is the current leader of ALL HNIR traditions must stop, for they are not recognised as such nor are they accurate according to above sources. Nor shall the Gosho-ha try to rewrite how the HNIR tradition do their training including the bit about Aikuchi. Regardless of what method Gosho-ha HNIR uses to train Aikuchi it is totally irrellevant in THIS article since Gosho-ha and the main HNIR traditions are NOT one and the same. They have nothing to do with each other: they are seperate under different leaders and different views. What Gosho-ha headmaster say about how the main HNIR tradition performs its training is completely and utterly irrellevant.

Finally: If these intrusions on the factual accuracy in both this article and Gosho-ha article continues I will be forced to do an official request for arbitration in order to hinder further similar edits.

Fred26 (talk) 14:26, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Mr. Fred26

The Seito Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu, the main tradition, has three successors. In the line of Kiyonaga Fumiya, the actual succesor is Yoshimochi Kiyoshi.

Nihon Kobudo Kyokai doesn't deny that Imai Soke choose to have three successors. NKK informed that they could have one associated, and Imai Soke decided that was Iwami Toshio. But that doesn't imply that Aoki Soke's discipliple from Taiwan and Kiyonaga Fumiya (now Yoshimochi Kiyoshi after him) were also successors.

Kendo Nippon wrote an article about the succession months ago. Please check: [3]

I think that together we can arrange this article in a way to show both sides. If you think anything write by me is offensive or partial, show me that and we will re-write.

--NitenBr (talk) 15:03, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

What is Kendo Nippon? An online Kendo-magazine with little connection to koryu. I tell you what, I'm literary 2 phone-calls away from Iwami Toshio. I can send a request to the guys over at koryu.com with their many and respectable scholars and authors on Koryu-history and have THEM put up an article describing the big gaps in the Gosho-ha claim to the headmastership.

There were three menkyo kaiden of HNIR chosen, NOT three successors. In theory HNIR can have a 100 menkyo kaiden but only one of them can be soke. That soke is chosen by the previous one. Imai Soke chose Iwami Toshio to be his successor and noone else.

This is what is at the center of all the gosho-ha arguments: the claim that Imai Soke set out three successors .Gosho-ha has claimed that the sokeship was dismantled/disabolished (whatever) with Imai Soke. This is not true. This is something the official HNIR tradition, and its members, categorically deny, it is something they do not subscribe too, it is something they do not uphold and they certainly do NOT recgonise any other Soke of HNIR than Iwami Toshio. This article WILL adhere to the fact that Iwami Toshio leads the official HNIR tradition. What could be clearer? If Gosho-ha has a dispute, then that is their problem to be settled outside here. There is no problem, however, stating that Gosho-ha and their headmaster do not subscribe to the lineage of the official tradition and that they now believe/delude themselves into thinking they actually lead everything and they have somehow transformed into the main line of HNIR.

Under wikipedia one must include the fact that there are people that dispute a succession or a different opinion in an article, no argument here, but what YOU are doing is very different. You are trying to weasel Gosho-ha versions of the lineage succession in this article by saying there were 3 official successors and that (for instance) the HNIR tradition train with soft shinai eventhough you obviously have no idea of how it is done in the HNIR mainline main dojo. You also keep referring to a 12th successor to the ryu, but Iwami Toshio has not yet passed away nor has he chosen any successor. If there is a 12th successor to the Gosho-ha tradition then it is a whole other matter. Like it or not, your version of the lineage is not accepted in the mainstream. It is Gosho-ha who is the minority, and until Iwami Toshio recognises your claim, which will be when hell freezes over, you have no leg to stand on and you will not pretend otherwise in this article.

Here is what will be done from now on. You will not revert edits to this article that aim to put in the official truth: That Iwami Toshio is the current 11th sole and single soke of HNIR tradition. If you have to link to the official Gosho-ha site, as a reference, as the "Official HNIR website" then you will only serve to confuse people with little experience of gosho-ha, for there is only one recognised HNIR seito line. From now on, if you need to post links to the Gosho-ha site the description cannot include the claim that it is the "official HNIR site" for it is not. "You may referr it to the official site of the HNIR tradition as taught by Yoshimoti (etc)"

Furthermore, if you have no practical experience with the HNIR tradition under Iwami Toshio, then dont post training-methods/weapons that Gosho-ha uses in THIS article. Gosho-ha article, yes! This article, no! As I said before: Gosho-ha has nothing to do with Iwami Toshio and how the practice is executed in his dojo and it will be reflected in this article.

I expect you to uphold this from now on. If not, then you can slug it out with the Wikipedia Admins in which case it will most likely end up like it did on both E-budo and Kendo-world.

Fred26 (talk) 10:35, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

"I can send a request to the guys over at koryu.com with their many and respectable scholars and authors on Koryu-history and have THEM put up an article describing the big gaps in the Gosho-ha claim to the headmastership."

Actually, that would be very useful for people in general to see, regardless of how this particular Wikipedia dispute comes out. You should ask'em. --Gwern (contribs) 18:53 9 February 2008 (GMT)

"What is Kendo Nippon? An online Kendo-magazine with little connection to koryu." Aswer: No, it's not!!!

You dont know what Kendo Nippon is? Please, so don't come here talking about schoolar etc...

Kendo Nippon is the most respected publication on Kendo (and in koryu too, for lack of a more specialized publication) in the world. It has been for at least 30 years! please, don't say thinks that you don't understand. I think it's best you call the Koryu.com people and ask what Kendo Nippon is. Probally they have a lot of issues, they can show you some.

Do you know who Gosho Sensei is? He is the person who taught Niten Ichi Ryu to Imai Soke AFTER he became 10th Soke! Because Gosho Sensei was the last Menkyo Kaiden in the mainstream line.

In a side note, Gosho Sensei didn't gave Menkyo Kainden to Imai Soke. GOsho Sensei says that there are no Jitte or Jiu jitsu on the ryu and that Aikuchi was how Aoki Soke called free forms made with fukuro shinai. Will you contradict him?

In Hyoho.com and other sites connected with Iwami Toshio, there is the information that Imai Soke started practicing in 1956 with Aoke Soke. That is a lie! Imai Soke started in 1975, a few months before Kiyonaga Soke passed away. Eight nonths later, Kiyonaga's widow decided to postumated desiginate Imai sensei as Soke, and asked Gosho Sensei, close friend of the Kiyonaga family and Soke Daiken (title given by Aoki Soke) to teach him, what he made, staying as his and everyone's else in the ryu teacher untill 1988. Iwami Toshio practicing only started in 1989. The same person, Kiyonaga san, designate Yoshimochi Sensei, son of Gosho Sensei, as successor of Kiyonaga Fumiya, her son and daijuichi successor. That is what Kendo Nippon featured in the article.

I think the Wikipedia moderators will judge the article of the most respected publication in the world more than enough about this point.

--NitenBr (talk) 22:32, 9 February 2008 (UTC)