Talk:War of 1812

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Who won the war

This page is for discussions about changes to the article. There has been considerable debate over "who won the war" (please refer to Archives 8 and 9 for the most recent discussions). In addition to the position that one, or the other, side "won," there is broad agreement among editors (as among historians) that both sides benefited from the war, or, as one editor put it: "both sides won." However, the consensus, based on historical documentation, is that the result of the war was per the Treaty of Ghent, i.e., status quo ante bellum, which, in plain English means "as things were before the war."

Please do not use this page to continue the argument that one or the other side "won" unless you are able to present citations from reliable and verifiable sources to support your claims. Sunray (talk) 22:03, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

I Concur Contributing editor Tirronan (talk) 06:35, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

If you wish to make a case for who won the war, but do not yet have citations, feel free to do so here: Who Won the War? 16:40, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

The Straight Dope

I urge editors of this article to read The Straight Dope about the War of 1812 (which I've added to it as an external link, besides giving the link here). It addresses some issues of bias in the article, particularly about the war's winners and losers, and gives some excellent references. The neutrality of the WP article would be improved by taking a lead from what this impartial (and American) source says. -- Lonewolf BC (talk) 08:48, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Ah, sorry for losing my temper, look how about just for once please reading the pages above? I can find as many historians that think the US fought it to a draw as thought it lost. I am one of the Americans that does think we lost however just exactly what are you claiming a bias about? Tirronan (talk) 09:31, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

The 'straight dope' indeed. Lines like 'I asked my Canadian friend, Straight Dope Message Board member Northern Piper, about Canadian attitudes on the War of 1812. He echoed the point about Canadians viewing the thwarted invasion as a victory, noting that many Americans describe an equally complicated conflict, the Vietnam War, as having ended in defeat.' and the fact that it is written by a chap called 'Gfactor' means this is likely not going to pass reliable source. It looks like he took a few sources and synthesised his own conclusion. Narson (talk) 09:56, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

The following points can not be ignored:

• The United States clearly established herself as an independent nation amongst its people
• By not being defeated, it led to the impetus of broadening the borders of the United States and an idea of destiny
• The weakness of not having a trained, quality standing army and navy was shored up by vastly improving both

No matter what had happened before the Treaty of Ghent, it was clear that after the War of 1812 the United States was not defeated and it was not Vietnam- how irresponsible. It had the opposite effect, and spurred tremendous growth. Monsieurdl ^{mon talk-mon contribs}

13:08, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

The Straight Dope is not a reliable source for the War of 1812, in that it is not a peer-reviewed historical source. Not to say that it isn't interesting, or that we cannot use it. Just that we cannot use it to determine who "won" the war. It is interesting reading and may be illuminating for many who were taught the myth. Sunray (talk) 16:30, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Funny thing about that article was that it goes out of its way to say taking Canada never was the primary reason for the war... The real problem is that you can find someone to support any side of any argument you care to make where this war was concerned. I'm reading an American author that thinks taking Canada was one of the primary reasons. Tirronan (talk) 16:41, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

The best way to deal with this is to focus on the primary evidence — what people actually said and did — without worrying too much about interpretations from secondary sources. The article does not have to try to guess what people were secretly thinking. For example, Thomas Jefferson did say that capturing Canada would be simply a matter of marching, and the declaration of war did not mention acquiring more territory in Canada. If there are some writers, etc. who did mention that at the time, then we can quote them without trying to impose a conclusive interpretation. David (talk) 21:00, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Who were the four?

Question: "Meanwhile, following the abdication of Napoleon, 15,000 British troops were sent to North America under four of Wellington’s most able brigade commanders."

Who were the 4 brigade commanders to come from the Peninsular? Just curious, really. Carre (talk) 11:13, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

I know that Pakenham was one of them. I am not sure but I think Ross was another. These four had extensive combat experience in the Peninsular War, and thus were competent to fight Brother Jonathan. Of course, both Pakenham and Ross were KIA, one at New Orleans and one at North Point.GABaker 14:32, 24 Jan 2008 UTC

American vs United States

Can we substitute some "US" and "American" to break up all of the instances of "United States" that have replaced every instance of "American" in the article? It's a much less comfortable read now.Zebulin (talk) 22:06, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

I think it read better /before/. The whole United States thing is just weird. The adjective is Americans, no? Narson (talk) 23:00, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

I think I am the guilty party here, someone objected to the term American, trust me we call ourselves American and are more than comfortable being named such. Feel free to change it. Tirronan (talk) 02:37, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Symbols?

What do the symbols next to Tecumseh and Issac Brock mean? And what significance did Brock have in the war? Das.avatar (talk) 22:57, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

The symbols mean that each was killed in battle during the war. Brock's leadership of the British army and Canadian militia led to the British capture of Forts Mackinac and Detroit and played a key role in repulsing American attacks on Upper Canada during the first year of the war (see Isaac Brock#War of 1812). Sunray (talk) 23:35, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Fort Amanda, Ohio

Is there a way information about Ft. Amanda could be added to the Northwest US section?

"Fort Amanda was one of a series of forts extending north from Piqua to Ft. Meigs (present day Perrysburg), built by order of General William Henry Harrison. These forts helped supply the army protecting the Northwest from British invasion during the war of 1812. Ft. Amanda's construction began in the fall of 1812 under the directorn of Lt. Col. Robert Poague who named in Amanda in honor of his daughter. The original fort is believed to have measured 160 feet by 160 feet. Located at the head of navigation of the Auglaize River, it had a small landing with a boat yard and served as a supply post and hosptial. Soldiers built riverboats or pirogues to transport soldiers and supplies. Approximately 75 peiorgues were built during the winter of 1812-1813.

Although Ft. Amanda saw no fighting during the war, it served as an important link in this supply line. On Decwember 24, 1814, the United States and Britian signed the treaty of Ghent, which ended the war. By early 1815 the fort was abandoned and eventually taken over by local settlers. In the cemetery near the fort are 75 headstones dedicated to the memory of unknown American soldiers of the war of 1812. Some speculate these mark the graves of soldiers who were casualties of wounds or disease. The original fort is no longer standing but a granite monument was built in 1915 at the site of the original fort. The monument as well as the cemetery can be view during daylight hours."

I visited the area and would be more than happy to contribute an image of what the fort looked like, or the obliske there now.

Stepshep (talk) 05:43, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Article protection

Why is this article locked? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.76.13.95 (talk) 14:36, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

The article was protected on January 25. The reason was "Heavy IP vandalism." The protection level was changed to semi-protected on January 28. Given the revision history and patterns of vandalism, that seems appropriate to me. Sunray (talk) 17:06, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

new discussion subpage?

Is it possible to divert who won the war discussion to a discussion sub page? Perhaps that would reduce the frequency of the same arguments being rehashed over and over.Zebulin (talk) 01:13, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Personally I am in favor of buying them all tickets to a major sporting arena and giving them all stone clubs to beat each other to death with. --Tirronan (talk) 01:38, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

This isn't a bad idea, either. Xyl 54 (talk) 17:02, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Somehow I doubt it would move the discussion there, the anons would still post here, we'd just have to move the comments over...then they'd post here again asking why their comments got deleted. Narson (talk) 08:38, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

It's not a bad idea; there's something similar here.It's worth a try, and previous spats on the subject can be archived there. Xyl 54 (talk) 17:01, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Narson. There is likely no way we can absolutely prevent folks from posting their unresolved issues about the war (jingoism, patriotism, national angst, or whatever), here. Sunray (talk) 21:06, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

You know as a American we go through this on the Civil War as well, everyone with an opinion just insists on blogging it to death regardless of actual fact. I had more of the same on the battle of waterloo with folks very upset that I began to put in sections with the Prussians in the battle. It doesn't matter the historic facts its their opinion that matters. --Tirronan (talk) 02:34, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

How about a "Do Not Feed The Troll" label? Xyl 54 (talk) 11:21, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Definitely a good strategy. Also, simply removing text that doesn't meet the talk page guidelines, in some cases. Sunray (talk) 09:54, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

On that note, I have set up a link for a page of discussions about "who won" for when you guys are done. Sunray (talk) 00:35, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm done please do so, that guy is never going to stop and its gone to trolling in my opinion. --Tirronan (talk) 05:35, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Lol why do you guys keep refering to me in the third person? I will stop when the page is satisfactory to both sides...70.54.16.238 (talk) 16:41, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

1. You don't have an account, 2. you have yet to bring up anything reputable to really consider making a change, 3. Its a subject beaten to death and specifically asked not to engage in it, 4. Nothing is being done to improve the article while you keep trolling. More than enough reason thank you. --Tirronan (talk) 01:21, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

I've moved the discussion on this page to the page created for "Who won the war" discussions. Sunray (talk) 06:36, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Status quo ante bellum.

'Status quo ante bellum' does not describe the outcome of this war. Americans may have noticed that at the start of the war they had a White House and at the end they didn't.