Talk:Mikveh

Tevila

Toivelling? Men using it after a "nocturnal emission?" Going further into the phrase: "Some men, especially in Hasidic circles, also use the mikvah regularly, either daily, before Shabbat, or before certain Jewish holidays." would be nice. People do use the Mikveh, regularly, and the way the article looks now, you'd think it was a dead practice.

For Toivelling, I found a good article via Google: http://www.northcliffshul.co.za/mikvah.htm

—  <TALKJNDRLINETALK>     23:33, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

There must be a more direct source available for tevilas Ezra. JFW | T@lk 13:13, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

My (Modern Orthodox) Rabbi's tvila cheatsheet (please adapt rather than copy):

1) There is a Mitzvah (commandment) to immerse all metal and glass utensils that are used in food preparation and consumption into a ritual bath (“mikveh”.). This is referred to as “tevilah” (immersion).

a) This mitzvah is learned from the story of the war against Midian (Numbers chapter 31). In this story, the Jewish People captured dishes among the spoils of war. The Torah commands us to both kasher and immerse the dishes.

i) According to some opinions, this constitutes a sort of sanctification and “conversion” for the dishes. (Others maintain that this is a Torah command whose reason remains hidden.)

ii) Thus, it need only be done when a Gentile previously owned the dishes. If the dishes were made by Jews (Israeli factory and a Jewish store) or owned by Jews who immersed them, then there is no need to immerse.

b) One is not allowed to use utensils that have not been immersed, but if they are used - the food is still kosher. This procedure is completely separate from the process of kashering dishes and keeping kosher. It is an independent commandment regarding one’s dishes.

c) This is a “one-shot deal.” The mitzvah is performed once per utensil, and that’s it.

i) Even if the utensil subsequently becomes non-kosher, it does not need to be immersed again - as long as it remained in your possession.

ii) If a utensil requires both kashering and immersion, kashering is done first.

2) Materials subject to immersion

a) This commandment only applies to metal and glass utensils. Thus:

i) Immersion with a blessing: metal, glass, pyrex, duralex, corelle, bone china (it’s glass).

ii) Immersion without a blessing: corningware, enamel, etc.

iii) Do not require immersion: plastic, wood, stone, styrofoam, earthenware (including glazed china [the glaze is too thin]), paper, etc.

3) Types of utensils subject to immersion:

a) Immersion with a blessing: all utensils used to make food available or ready to eat.

i) Examples: dishes, flatware, glasses, knives, and even appliances.

ii) Appliances can be tricky - one doesn’t want to ruin an electrical appliance. 3 options:

(1) If the part of the appliance that comes in contact with food is removable, then that is the only part that requires immersion. (i.e.- toaster oven racks)

(2) Anecdotal evidence indicates that most appliances can be immersed and will be fine if allowed to dry out for a few days before usage. It is recommended to dry them out on a heater, and do not be alarmed if a little bit of smoke comes out during their first usage. If a lot of smoke comes out, discontinue usage.

(3) If one takes the appliance apart to the point that it is not useable and then reassembles it, then it was “constructed” by a Jew and does not require immersion.

b) Immersion without a blessing: utensils that do not make food immediately ready to eat are immersed without a blessing (i.e.- storage containers, mixer beaters, etc.)

c) Do not require immersion: utensils that do not come in contact with food (i.e. - can-openers, the body of an oven [racks require immersion], etc.)

4) If only part of the utensil is metal/glass, then it only requires immersion if that part is the part that touches the food.

a) Example: A wooden salad bowl with metal handles does not require immersion.

5) Procedure:

a) Make sure that the utensil is clean of debris and stickers

i) Soapy water is very effective at removing the stickers

ii) If a sticker is difficult to remove and you wouldn’t remove it before serving special company, then it need not be removed.

b) Go to a ritual bath (“mikveh.”)

c) Just before beginning to immerse utensils, one recites the following blessing:

i) “Baruch Atah Ado-nai E-loheinu Melech HaOlam Asher Kidshanu B’Mitzvosav V’Tzivanu Al Tevilas Keilim” (if only one, substitute “Kli” for the last word.)

ii) ”Blessed are you Hashem, King of the Universe, who sanctified us with your commandments and commanded us regarding the immersion of utensils” (if only one, substitute “a utensil” for the last word.)

iii) One blessing is sufficient to cover all the utensils being immersed at one time. One should avoid talking between the recitation of the blessing and immersing the vessels.

d) Dunk the utensils

i) It is very important that the utensil be exposed to water on all sides at once.

ii) One should make sure that there is no air trapped in the utensil

(1) Ritual baths usually have a rack or bucket available, so that the utensils can be dropped in (to ensure that water touched them on all sides.) If not, then wet your hands before dunking and hold the utensil loosely.

e) Utensils need only be exposed to the water for an instant.

—  <TALKJNDRLINETALK>     01:57, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Mikva on Shabbos and Yom Tov

The above article mistakenly states that the use of a mikva is forbidden on Shabbos and Yom Tov, as a matter of fact that is false - according to most Hassidic customs the mikva is used by men on Shabbos and Yom Tov just as well and according to Hassidic teachings Shabbos is the most important and holy time in which to immerse oneself in a mikva (women after nida period also use a mikva on shab)

Move to mikveh

The correct name is Mikveh. I suggest we move the page there. DMTsurel 15:41, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

I believe a better page for information on immersing utensils is Tevilah (immersion) -- it has its own page and needs more content. Also, could you supply a source for the information in the table? Thanks. Best, --Shirahadasha 07:48, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Mayim Hayyim-- Need sources

Currently section on this Boston organization has no sources other than its own web site. Previously the section made a number of claims about it, including that the organization has led to a renaissance in Mikva use among Conservative Jews. Removed those claims for the time being. As an FYI any mention of the organization at all requires verification including independent evidence of the organization's notability based on reliable sources. An organization's own web site can be used to present the organization's positions on issues, but not for claims about its notability, impact on society, etc. Will have to delete this whole section unless appropriate sources are found. Sorry about this. --Shirahadasha 07:44, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Ancient miqwa'ot

I'm looking for the opportunity to link to a description of an ancient miqweh which includes the logic of the otsar to "refresh" the miqweh. Otsarim are to be seen at Masada, Gamla, etc. What should I do here, suggest an addition on the subject or produce a separate article? Thanks.

--Ihutchesson 23:32, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Modern mikvaot are "refreshed" as well. Things haven't changed, at least in the basic concepts, although the plumbing of course is differently constructed. --Shirahadasha 00:20, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

My interest was in the otsar to do the refreshing. I need to expand what I've added to the Qumran article on the stepped cisterns, thought by many to be miqwa'ot. When the water supply is twice yearly run-off water from the hills, there will be need to refresh the miqwah somehow as the year progresses. Having the otsar seems to have been the standard method... --Ihutchesson 13:14, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Volume of Mikvah

The article makes the following statement: "A mikvah must contain a minimum of forty se'ah of water, approximately 200 gallons or 750 liters." These values seem too high. According to the Weights and Measures article from the online Jewish Encyclopedia, a se'ah is "equal to six cabs, or 13,184.44 cu. cm." So, at approximately 13.2 liters per se'ah, this comes out to 528 liters or 140 U.S. liquid gallons. Other sources, including Wikipedia's article on se'ah, peg the measure at 7.33 liters (1/3 of a bath), which makes the mikvah even smaller at 293 liters. Anyway, I would appreciate someone justifying the 750 liter value. Tm19 05:48, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing this out. Agree the articles present incompatible definitions. Will try to get this sorted out. Best, --Shirahadasha 06:09, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

There is an argument between Avrohom Yeshaya Karelitz (Chazon Ish) and R' Chaim Na'eh. The Chazon Ish defined the set of measure in the talmud and mishna as the maximun reasonably possible. He did this so there would be no doubt using his measure that one is fulfilling his obligations. R' Chaim Na'eh on the other hand gave the most likely correct measure. There is significant differences in these measures. In this case 8.3*40=332 or 14.3*40=572 liters. In general, modern halakha will be stringent like the Chazon Ish measure for biblical laws and be lenient for rabbinical law like R' Chaim Na'eh. In this case, Mikvah is biblical and would probably require the greater measure. In this article someone ([http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Mikvah&diff=prev&oldid=50296850 an IP address) used 5 gallons per seah which is incorrect. We have an article about Ancient Hebrew units of measurement, but the Hebrew one is better. Jon513 10:20, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

OK. We're headed in the right direction. I would like to see the footnote in the article expanded a little more. The semi-casual reader might ask, for instance, why the stringent requirement was used. The explanation from Jon513 above is that this higher value is consistent with halakha. It might be better, however, to give a range of possible values, and then link to the corroborating Wikipedia entry. In addition, or alternately, it might be good to note the actual volume (in modern equivalents) of natural water used in contemporary mikvah. Tm19 03:39, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Note that there is an article specifically on Seah, although currently it's a stub. Perhaps detail on various opinions about what a Seah is should go in the seah article and/or Ancient Hebrew units of measurement with only a range (maximum/minumum) going here and a reference to the other article(s) for additional detail. Best, --Shirahadasha 04:17, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree. The frustrating thing is that the highest and lowest estimates we've kicked around so far diverge by a factor of 2. Saying that mikva'ot contain anywhere from 293 to 572 liters just doesn't seem very helpful. But maybe that's the nature of the beast, eh? Can anybody get a "real live" example from the local synagogue? Even citing a single case in Cleveland or Tel Aviv would be instructive before moving on to the the theoretical calculations by rabbis, archaeologists, etc. Tm19 14:39, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not suppose to be "helpful" to construct a mikvah, but to give an accurate idea of what a mikvah is. In practice the smaller size is not relevant at all. It is common place in the case of the mikvah to have the highest possible standards of construction. Most minority opinions are adhered too in the case of mikvah even thought this is not the regular practice for other areas of halakha. see this page (section "Building a Mikva to the Highest Halachic Standards") for a small sample of sources that say that how stringent construction of a mikvah is. I do not think that there is any reason to use the lower estimate in this article since it is never used and that discussion of what is the "real" size of a se'ah belongs on another page. Jon513 19:30, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

By "helpful" I meant, "How could an intelligent but uninformed reader benefit the most from this article?" Such a reader, I would contend (since I'm one of them, well, at least uninformed!), has no idea about these measurements and the internal debates about conversion rates, etc. Your comments above, Jon513, are helpful. From this perspective, I suggest adding a sentence to the footnote along these lines: Although there are a range of conversion values for a seah, Jewish communities will tend to use more stringent standards in order to accommodate a wide range of traditions. See, for example, Howard Jachter, "The Building and Maintenance of Mikvaot." Accessed on March 22, 2007, from http://koltorah.org/ravj/12-1b%20The%20Building%20and%20Maintenance%20of%20Mikvaot%20-%20Part%201.htm Tm19 14:50, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Clarification, the reason for stringency in Orthodox Judaism isn't "to accommodate a wide range of tradition", it's because the obligation of mikvah following niddah or zavah is considered a Biblical obligation and there's a general rule that Biblical obligations are interpreted strictly to ensure one has complied with them. There is particular stringency because immersion in a mikvah ends a women's niddah period, and sexual relations during niddah or zavah is one of the small number of Biblical obligations requiring Self-sacrifice under Jewish Law to avoid transgressing. Best, --Shirahadasha 16:11, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Tm, I just sent you that link. Perhaps we both found it, or you had it open and didn't reliaze it was from me. :). I think that expanding the footnote to explain why the more striengent ruling is used is a good idea. I will do it in a few days if it is not done before than. However, I think that adding a range of sizes to the main body of the text would be a bad idea. As the smaller volume is not relied on at all for mikvah it would be missleading to state it; It would be like saying that some rabbis say that chicken fat can be eating with cheese (a minority opinion not observed in over 1500 years!). The complete discussion of the size of a seah belongs in another artilce. Jon513 21:27, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

This issue is much more complicated than it seems. The Talmud gives 2 measurements 40 seah and 3 by 1 by 1 cubits. 40 seah can be broken down into cav and eventually eggs, the problem is that the two measurements nowadays are way off (apparently egg and/or human size has change in the past 1600 years) so 40 seah which is equal to 5760 eggs is much smaller than 3 cubits cubed. The Chazon Ish says that since the cubit is the biblical measurement and the conversion to 40 seah is rabbinic therefore we must bestringent for the biblical size. He says that the size of a cubit is 59.7 cent. This would make a mikvah 648 litres and since the halakhic works say to add 1/48 to each cubit you end up with 680 litres. All women Mikvas are bigger than this amount.Benignuman 21:39, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

Zavah status and Conservative Judaism

Need to discuss Zav/Zavah status (for a zavah, this is basically non-menstrual uteral blood, requires a 7 day waiting period and requires immersion -- it's similar to but technically distinct from niddah, involving normal menstrual blood). Orthodox Judaism requires immersion after zavah status. Conservative Judaism recently changed its viewpoint and put out a number of responsa on the subject, and its viewpoint is now somewhat different from Orthodox Judaism. While retaining the basic concept, they liberalized some of the technical details. In particular, the responsa either limited (e.g. by exempting bleeding due to fertility drugs) or effectively abolished Zavah status, and also reduced the time in the regular menstrual niddah state to a total of seven days rather than 11-12. The Niddah article currently has details but they haven't addressed here. Will get to this. --Shirahadasha 14:47, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Lead sentence

Could we not beat around the bush? A mikvah is a body of water used for ritual purification in Jewish law. The word "mikvah", though in principle ambiguous, is not commonly used in any other sense. Shalom ^Hello 22:20, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

I agree with you. The word "mikveh" in the Bible is only used to describe a collection of water; as every reference in the Bible to "mikveh" follows it with "mayim" (water), The only exception is when it refers to hope, which is not the subject of this artice. Nowadays it only refers to a ritual mikvah, not the mikveh hamayim of the mabul (flood) Itzse 22:28, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

But it didn't originally mean that in Hebrew. The Bible's use isn't the only meaning, and the article shouldnt make the assumption that it is, any more than the article on "vacuum" should immediately start talking about "vacuum cleaners", despite the fact that almost everyone is talking about vacuum cleaners when they say "the vacuum". -David

An article on the word "mikveh" should talk about the word "mikveh" just like the article on "vacuum" talks about the word "vacuum". This article similar to the article on vacuum cleaner should explain what a "mikvah" is; yes the one you actually toivel (immerse) in, not the "mikvahs" that have been found in archealogical digs and displayed in museums, which can be mentioned later. When someone wants to find out what a mikveh is; they come to WP to find what it is, not what it is not. The article needs to first say who does use a mikveh before it says who does not. How should someone know what tvilas Ezrah is if the explanation was removed?

This article is about the mikvah that is used nowadays not the other uses that mikvah has in the Bible. BTW what are they? Itzse 22:59, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Hasidic Mikvah going

As far as I know, all Hasidic groups use the mikveh daily, not just before Shabbos; and non-Hasidic Heradim are no more or less likely to use the mikveh before Shabbos than their Daat Leumi counterparts. 212.179.209.103 23:58, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

I would be great of you could provide a source instead of speaking for experience. Jon513 13:20, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

List of Conservative, Reform, liberal mikvaot

Under "External links," I added a link to a list (which I compiled) of Conservative, Reform, liberal, and other unaffiliated mikvaot (which are not listed on mikvah.org). AFAIK there is not any other comprehensive list of them.Onanothertopic (talk) 00:13, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

The reason I deleted this link as well as a link to Mayim Rabim's discussion board is that the External link policy on links generally to be avoided states that Wikipedia should avoid this type of link:

11. Links to social networking sites (such as MySpace or Fan sites), discussion forums/groups (such as Yahoo! Groups) or USENET.

12. Links to blogs and personal web pages, except those written by a recognized authority.

If an organization like Mayim Rabbim, or someone who can be established as a recognized expert, published a list and undertook to vouch for their reliability, this would be a different matter, but a link to an individual's private facebook entry would appear to be problematic under this policy. I'll point out that because the social realities are that an organization that was incorrectly characterized as non-Orthodox would lose business in the Orthodox world (and doubtless vice versa), there does have to be some care to ensure that descriptions are reliable and an organization is not misidentified or misclassified based on non-reliable information. Although the link policy speaks of "generally" and may permit exceptions, here misclassifying error could cause organizations losses. For this reason, I believe some care to ensure sources are reliable is appropriate here and an exception shouldn't be made. Want to make clear that the issue here is not the content, it's the reliability of the source being linked to. You're welcome to cdd a link to an expert or a list maintained and vouched for by an established organization. Best, --Shirahadasha (talk) 13:56, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Roger that, sorry. Unfortunately, there is no such list (of non-Ortho mikvaot) maintained by an established organization, believe it or not. I put it together myself for that very reason. But I think it is useful info for people to have. If you can look up ortho. mikvaot on mikvah.org, then where should you look up non-ortho facilities? Is there some other host besides livejournal (it's not facebook) where I could post it? Or does it just have to wait until someone official picks it up? Onanothertopic (talk) 19:27, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

I do not think that there needs to be a link to a list of non-orthodox mikvahs. If there is one that meets the requirement of wp:el then great, but if not then there won't be any link. As the publisher of this list you should not be putting the link on wikipedia. Jon513 (talk) 20:32, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

OK, not a problem. I thought the non-Ortho list was a good adjunct to mikvah.org (which doesn't "need" to be on there, either), but if it's forbidden, I understand. Best, Onanothertopic (talk) 01:31, 10 March 2008 (UTC)