Talk:Beverley

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lion?

since when does beverley have a lion...

Never, as far as I can tell. Moved to Bad Jokes and Other Deleted Nonsense. Blisco 20:55, 11 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

BEVERLEY ACTUALLY DOES HAVE A LION! THEY KEEP IT NEAR THE MEMORIAL HALL HAVE YOU EVER BEEN TO BEVERLEY

Population

I have reverted the recent change to the population in the infobox as the change was out of alignment with the text. Unfortunately I cannot locate a reference for either the 29,210 or 29,110 figure. Can anyone provide a reference for either of these figures? Keith D (talk) 23:17, 3 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I have provided a direct link to the 29,110 figure. Unfortunately the "town" boundaries of almost all market towns in England have not been redrawn since before local government reorganisation in the 1970s. Before this town boundaries were extended periodically to take account of new building but since town councils lost most of their functions to the new district authorities nobody has bothered to redraw the boundaries.

For this reason National Statistics prefers the urban area definition for comparative purposes - ie the contiguous built-up area where the gap between buildings does not exceed 50 metres. Otherwise most of the housing built in the past 30-plus years gets excluded because technically it is situated in adjacent parishes. Jameswilson (talk) 23:15, 4 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Infobox change

Can I ask why the infobox has been changed as according to WP:CITIES I think we should be using the original one. Can someone please explain how Beverley's use of settlement in preference to UK place fits in with the following - "All settlements of the United Kingdom (that are not coterminous with a local government district) are to use the Template:Infobox UK place, though some very rare exceptions exist. For those that are coterminous with a local government district (which are usually large cities / unitary districts or equivalent—such as Liverpool, Leicester, and Bristol), please use Template:Infobox settlement." Keith D (talk) 14:01, 30 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

As per explained to you on your talk in regards to the arms and other information. WP:CITIES is just a project page, not a policy. - Yorkshirian (talk) 03:40, 31 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I have restored the infobox as per WP:UKCITIES as there has been extensive discussion on the use of infoboxes in UK place articles there, see also the archives. Please discuss any changes required to WP:UKCITIES about using the settlement infobox there as there is a much wider audience than this article and it has impact on a UK wide basis. Keith D (talk) 11:35, 31 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I have undone your edit, because you've provided no reason as to why REMOVING information from an article is preferable, just to keep a mere infobox inline with the guideline opinion of an editor on a WikiProject which is not even policy. Especially as the only big different between the two is that the current one allows for more information, which is important to the article.- Yorkshirian (talk) 12:47, 31 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Consensus is policy see Wikipedia:Consensus--Ahjet (talk) 12:57, 31 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The project page clearly marks its specific useage as "project guideline". A guideline is not a policy. - Yorkshirian (talk) 13:00, 31 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

No, consensus is a policy. Do you have it?--Ahjet (talk) 13:19, 31 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You seem to be a newbie, so I'll take pity and kindly put you in the direction of Wikipedia:Policies_and_guidelines which explains to you the difference between the two. One is the law of Wikipedia (policy), one is merely advisery and is down to the editors choice, hense why Manchester for example has the same infobox which allows arms... a project guideline doesn't even have the status of a general guideline. - Yorkshirian (talk) 13:27, 31 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The policy I am emphasizing is that of consensusWikipedia:Consensus.You do not have consensus to use the infobox of your choice in this article. It's nothing to do with guidelines.--Ahjet (talk) 14:00, 31 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Well I tried to restore the UK place infobox to re-display missing information OS Grid reference, Unitary authority and Parish, and also corrected UK parliament and retained Town Council website in Infobox. I cannot see any reasoning as to why the "Arms of Beverley Council" (which was abolished in 1996) is the "Official Logo of Beverley" as even the Beverley Town Council website only uses the "Beverley Crest" and not the full coat of arms. But within a minute it was changed back as apparently "it's a town"?!Dallan72 (talk) 19:25, 31 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Dallon, you seem to be ignorant on information pertaining to Beverley. In my hands right now I have a book on the history of the town which features the full achievement of arms on the cove, published in 2003, after 1996... the current website of Beverley Town Council also, clearly features the shield from it. Does that not say something... common sense should be kicking in right now. If you feel just the shield should be there instead of the full achiemevent, then that is a different story and if that is your problem removing the image completely is not on.

The arms of Beverley and other towns is as relevent as Manchester's arms, which is allowed in the article and has reached FA with the same infobox, so all this boring talk of the non policy WikiProjects is irrevelent. If the UK infobox is useless, as it seems it is, then people who seem to be obsessed with its use should make the changes to allow additional fields, including the arms of the towns, cities, etc. Until the infobox for cities like Manchester is changed to the inferior UK one too, then I don't see why this one should suffer. - Yorkshirian (talk) 19:01, 1 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The consensus for use of infoboxes on UK settlements of all types was reached at WP:UKCITIES, see the archives for the discussion. Beverley may be a town but is not coterminous with a local government district and so should use the UK place infobox. The settlement box does not show the services or OS reference. I did request that discussion take place at WP:UKCITIES if a change is required in the guidelines and a new consensus reached before changing articles. Keith D (talk) 20:02, 31 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It seems like more work to use Infobox settlement rather than Infobox UK place as you don't get the maps with the location dot automatically generated and need to manually create a map for every single location. The Infobox UK place template does this all automatically if you provide the co-ordinates -- WOSlinker (talk) 18:41, 1 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think we should use UK place here. As already stated, UK place was developed with extensive discussion (several archive's worth!) - WP:UKCITIES merely reflects the various consensuses formed there. It was developed, I believe, to ensure consistency, neutrality and stability for all places and not omit or give greater weight to certain things (ie home nations over UK, the county system etc etc).

Infobox settlement is a great tool, and certainly has its place for the UK, but I think it should be avoided for all "sub-district" places as it is very unstable (there is no standard as to what should and should not be included), and open to all sorts of manipulation and points of contention.

In short, there is little to be gained by adding this infobox to a handpicked selection of articles. I would recommend a good faith revert. --Jza84 | Talk 18:45, 1 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Having looked through this, I'm inclined to agree with Dallan that the crest doesn't verifiably pertain to Beverley proper. As one can't add a "fact" tag to images, I'm raising it for discussion here. This issue of displaying the crest seems to be the crux of the matter here. --Jza84 | Talk 19:49, 1 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The Beverley CoA appears to be for the former borough & the Selby CoA appears to be for the district and not for the town. These do appear on the relevant pages, I would think that using them on the town page in incorrect. The Market Weighton logo appears to relate to the town council and may be suitable on the Market Weighton page with an appropriate FUR. I think that if the problem is just the crest then may be an addition to the infobox UK place of a crest field following the image may be a way forward. But the use of crests/logos which do not apply is a different matter as we should not be applying them to article to which they no not officially apply. Keith D (talk) 21:30, 1 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Definately not, I agree. Infact, the College of Arms tends only to bring legal action when arms have been misappropriated/misattributed rather than displayed. Due to the lack of citation, we ought to remove this asap. They can always be restored if someone has a fair rationale.

The above, combined with the rest of discussion and lack of reply from Yorkshirian inclines me to restore the original Infobox UK place. --Jza84 | Talk 22:58, 1 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Jza84 can you clarify to what your first sentence "Definately not, I agree." refers? Keith D (talk) 23:10, 1 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, my bad. In response to "we should not be applying them [the COA] to article to which they no not officially apply", I should've said I agree, we definately should not [apply them to the wrong article]. Does that clarify? Sorry about that!!! --Jza84 | Talk 23:35, 1 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for clarification, I thought that it applied to that part but was unsure. Keith D (talk) 09:07, 2 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You seem to have missed this message/reply, so I'll reprint it..

You seem to be ignorant on information pertaining to Beverley. In my hands right now I have a book on the history of the town which features the full achievement of arms on the cove, published in 2003, after 1996... the current website of Beverley Town Council also, clearly features the shield from it. Does that not say something... common sense should be kicking in right now. If you feel just the shield should be there instead of the full achiemevent, then that is a different story and if that is your problem removing the image completely is not on.

The arms of Beverley and other towns is as relevent as Manchester's arms, which is allowed in the article and has reached FA with the same infobox, so all this boring talk of the non policy WikiProjects is irrevelent. If the UK infobox is useless, as it seems it is, then people who seem to be obsessed with its use should make the changes to allow additional fields, including the arms of the towns, cities, etc. Until the infobox for cities like Manchester is changed to the inferior UK one too, then I don't see why this one should suffer. - Yorkshirian (talk) 19:01, 1 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The fact that books on Beverley and the TOWN COUNCIL WEBSITE ITSELF (NOTE, NOT JUST DISTRICT FOR THE SLOW ONES) uses it means, it belongs in the article and is essential to it. No ifs, buts. The town council website uses a crest and so this article must too. You wanting to make the article look dull/boring or whatever doesn't come into consideration. Neither does farting on about some WikiProject which isn't even policy and clearly, as I have shown with Manchester, Kingston upon Hull, Sheffield, etc. Any article of a decent standard does not use the inadequet "UK Place" one, but infact "Infobox Settlement". I'm trying to remain civil, but the fact that you're being an anonyance, for the sake of being anoying hinders that greatly. - Yorkshirian (talk) 09:28, 2 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I've made a compromise and added just the shield from the town website, instead of the full achievement, though I don't agree that it should only be the sheild as for those not completely ignorant about the town you can see the full achievements use in the town (on books, etc). In this new version the old women of Wikipedia cannot myther about it, because its the exact shield feature on the TOWN council website. I've also figure out why the OS thing wasn't showing up "it needed to have <no wiki>TA035399</no wiki> instead of just numbers, its fixed now. - Yorkshirian (talk) 09:57, 2 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I object to this "Compromise"; there was none. The issue in hand is the use of Template:Infobox settlement against the wishes of myself, KeithD, Dallan, WOSlinker and WP:UKCITIES. Your edit has placed three settlements out of line with the rest of England. --Jza84 | Talk 15:24, 2 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I, too, would like to see Template:Infobox place restored,please.--Ahjet (talk) 15:36, 2 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Protected

This page has been protected for 1 week due to edit warring. Please use this time to establish a consensus on the content of the page. If you agree on the page contents before the protection expires, you can request the page be unprotected at WP:RFPU. Stifle (talk) 13:11, 2 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]