Talk:Týr

Unclear section

"As the wolf is a frequent metaphor for the all-devouring grave, and with the well-known Eddaic adage "Cattle die, kinsmen die ..." in mind, the meaning of this by-name becomes clear."

What is this all about? This 'well known' phrase is a bit obscure for a random guy from Africa. Please redo this part of it in a somewhat accessable format. ManicParroT 21:23, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

It's one of the most famous verses from the Elder Edda didactic poem Sayings of the High One. --Gwern (contribs) 22:39 23 October 2007 (GMT)

Which hand?

Does anyone know which hand he lost? -FZ 22:00, 3 Aug 2004 (UTC)

A random search on Internet gave several pages all claiming that it was the right hand. This makes sense, showing the god's courage in risking his main hand. (Unless he was left-handed.) I don't know if that was explicitly told in the original sources, But maybe some scholars of norse mythology could tell what was written in them...

Hmmm, this is strange. Marvel Comics version of Tyr: http://www.immortalthor.net/bio-tyr.html "According to Norse mythology, it was Tyr's right hand that was lost, but in the Asgard of the Marvel Universe, he lacks his left"

Read the full explanation. It says further down in the article in a special note that in the Asgard of the Marvel Universe, he lacks his left hand, not right as in the real mythology.

"Fountain"

"The Fountain of Tyr" was the alleged practice of berserkers of cutting off their own hand to use the blood from the spurting artery to blind an opponent.

I removed this for lack of reference (nothing was to be found on the web. is it in the Edda?) dab (T) 16:36, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I have never heard of it. I believe it is crank.--Wiglaf 20:02, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)

seems like it. [1] it was here for 7 months. never cite WP as a reference... seems to strkie a chord, though [2]... dab (T) 21:55, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I guess the last link is the source of the info. Well, the fact that it is about Vikings vs. Romans is a tell-tale sign it is bogus. I have wondered about veracity of the fountain of Tyr for seven months. It is sad that Wikipedia is littered with things like that.--Wiglaf 22:23, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Haha.. I'm so glad these pages are getting more attention than they did a year ago. :bloodofox: 02:42, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Runeswords

Consequently, the Tyr rune was carved onto spearheads and onto the hilts of swords, so that Tyr would aid the owner in battle.

I was unable to find a pre-700 example of this (n Looijenga). Maybe during the Viking Age? In any case, I replaced it with a reference to the Lindholm amulet. dab (ᛏ) 15:32, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I am afraid I lack a book on it at the moment. OlofE, who is somewhat of an expert on runes, wrote at Talk:Norse mythology:The most visible deity in runic text is Tyr. The name itself, and the rune, was used for a long time as an incantation of power. Many old inscriptions consist only of a tyr (T) rune, often repeated or multiplied (a stem with 7 bars on each side for instance). This is especially common in old, short inscriptions on weapons. The problem with Looijenga is that he he excludes the vast majority of runic inscriptions by limiting himself to the period prior to 700 and to the area around the North Sea (but as both of us know, limiting the scope is one of the major tasks when writing a dissertation).--Wiglaf 17:32, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

(Looijenga is a she, I think) that's right. Maybe I shouldn't have removed it. I readily believe the rune was used in this way, but I would have liked a rough reference as to when the practice was common. Often on WP, all things Germanic seem to be lumped together, and I have grown wary of general statements about "Germanic" customs. I have tried to find out about the practice of inscribing runes on swords, and it seems there is not a single example of runes actually being written on the blade. There are quite a few examples of runes on the hilt or on the scabbard, though, but most examples I have found seem to be names. I would just ask that the statement about the Tyr runes is re-introduced with a rough reference to a time period, and maybe a couple of prominent examples. dab (ᛏ) 18:10, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I am not sure I can satisfy those demands at the moment, but I am not insisting on having it in the text. I just thought it might be interesting to the general reader.--Wiglaf 19:01, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

the "especially in old inscriptions" part at least seems unsubstantiated, however. because in a runic context, 'old' would certainly mean Elder Futhark / pre-8th-century. dab (ᛏ) 18:36, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Well, in my mind old inscriptions means prior to the 11th century when most inscriptions were made in Sweden.--Wiglaf 19:01, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I see. this is probably a question of "Germanic" vs. "Norse" mindset. (the name Tyr is Norse, but the article treats the proto/pan-Germanic god). I suppose at the moment it seems probable that this use of the Tyr rune was common during the Viking Age, i.e. post-800, pre-1000. I have really had a hard time finding any swords inscribed with runes, no matter where (hilt, pommel, blade, scabbard...) dab (ᛏ) 19:09, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

The fact is, the evidence for the inscription of the Tyr rune on weapons is, apart from a single literary reference, virtually nonexistent. There are only a couple of known weapons with anyhting resembling a Tyr rune on them, and in one instance the mark is very small and might just be coincidental markings.

Neverthless, the literary evidence is quite plain and clear, stating to carve the Tyr rune on the hilt of one's blade and call twice on Tyr for victory.

Neverwinter Nights

The reference at the end to Tyr being a god in "Bioware's Neverwinter Nights" is wrong. The game had no direct link to the Tyr in Norse mythology, but rather Tyr has been a god in the Forgotten Realms game world for many years, and that was drawn from Norse mythology. I'm not going to change it, but someone else should.

I've altered the entry to reflect this. :bloodofox: 03:23, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Tyr and Mars

There are two mentions of Tyr being identified with Mars, which begs for an explicit discussion in the article. Is it merely that they're both war gods? Or is Tyr descended in some way from Mars? (I wouldn't think so.)

I would add that the picture is pretty, but it's not nearly contemporaneous; though its style looks to me like it was meant to look like it was from the 1100s, it's from the 1700s and is hardly an authentic source when considering any Tyr/Mars connection. Tempshill 19:52, 2 August 2005 (UTC)

The picture is meant as a decoration rather than an authentic source of anything (except 18th century Icelandic art). The Týr/Mars connection is old, though. Old Norse Týsdagr (English Tuesday) corresponds to the Roman dies Martis. - Haukurth 20:42, 2 August 2005 (UTC)

The Latin word dies Martis was calqued into words akin to Tyr's day in the different old Germanic languages. Tyr is not descended from Mars, but had some similar traits, mainly also being a god of war. 85.226.122.237 13:19, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

Tyr and his Germanic cognates were glossed as Mars by the early Romans, and then later on by Germanic converts to Catholicism. Later on, as a result of Odin becoming the chief Teutonic god of organized warfare, Mars also began to be used as a gloss for Odin. Originally it was used to gloss Tyr, ie. Teiwaz, as a result of his association with warfare and Odin's greater similarity to Mercury. It is also possible that, even as Mars was seen as the progenitor of Rome, so was Tyr seen as the progenitor of Germanic culture. This would make him the same as Tacitus' Tuisto. Also, in TAcitus' Histories a representative of the TEncteri is said to hail Tyr as the greatest of the gods.

++++

I was under the impression that Tyr corresponded to Zeus, not Aries/Mars. This would seem to be supported by the variations of forms of his name including "Z" and the reference to Tyr having previously been the chief god of the pantheon, as was Zeus. Kro666 12:45, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Tyr statue

I've read about a statue of Tyr wearing a horned helmet that was unearthed in Zealand, Denmark in 200 BC. I've also seen photographs of this statue. [3] Unfortunately, with a google image search I'm having trouble finding a decent photo of the original statue but plenty of apparent reproductions from your usual New Age merchants. [4][5][6] However, I can't seem to find too much information regarding it outside of where it was found and the supposed date. If it's to be trusted, I think a photograph of the statue would be quite appropriate for this article. :bloodofox: 04:33, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

It's a nice statue, and if you can get hold of a free image, it would be perfect on horned helmet and Pre-Roman Iron Age, but I have serious doubts that the statue can be identified with "Tyr" in any sensible way. The statue itself is notable. The "Tyr" identification is likely New Age merchants' fiction (200 BC is Proto-Germanic. If anything, the statue depicts "Tiwaz", but since it is not labelled, this is simply free guesswork). dab (ᛏ) 08:20, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

As it stands, Tiwaz currently redirects here. In fact, I think I did that. :) What do you think about a passing reference on the page about the statue sometimes being associated? It was found in Denmark and it seems to be intentionally missing a hand. What else is it going to be? Of course, I understand that this isn't the place to decide that. However, there is the similarity and maybe it deserves a mention? :bloodofox: 17:10, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

I'll be glad for a discussion of the statue. I agree that the missing hand is a strong hint. Where did you read it was dated to 200 BC? If we can identify it, we can certainly draw a connection. To begin with, you'll need its inventory number, and you may be able to google it on a museum homepage. If the museum exhibits it as "Tyr" that will be good enough. What museum is it in? dab (ᛏ) 17:38, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

ah, I found your source, [7] This piece depicts the god with battle-ax, and replicates a bronze original dated circa 200 BCE, from Zealand in Denmark.; we could email sacredsource.com and ask for identification. Their Odin Thor and Freyr are nice too, and they are straightforward to identify, actually dating to the Viking Age, they would be nice additions to the respective articles if we can find free images. dab (ᛏ) 17:55, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

I have added a bit about the Thor statue to the Thor article and also sent an e-mail to Sacred Source to see if they know what museum it is in and/or an inventory number or, really, anything else outside of the location where it was found. I couldn't really find much of anything on the internet about it either after looking around for some time. So far, no response but I'll let you know when I get one. :bloodofox: 06:34, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

I received a response from the company today. Unsurprisingly, they didn't know anything about the statue outside what was provided to them. I'll keep looking and ask some friends. :bloodofox: 21:07, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Citation

Use of the symbol as a racist emblem is documented here. I wasn't sure where to cite so please feel free to transplant the reference where appropriate. Angrynight 01:27, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Hello angrynight, I've removed your reference from the article because it's already covered on the main article for the rune. All we need here is a small summary of the rune and how it relates to Tyr. :bloodofox: 01:38, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Ahh... Okay, I bow to your superior knowledge of how this knowledge is organized. Angrynight 04:58, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Cleanup notice.

The characterisation of Germanic intentions as genocidal and the pretensions to actually know the intent behind different types of bog sacrifices are going to require citation. I am somewhat familiar with the migration era legends, and to say definitively that they represent this or that about bronze age and early iron age cultic practises is a matter of interpretation, not established fact. --Fire Star 17:32, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Quote from Ynglinga saga, regarding Hanga-týr

"En stundum vakti hann upp dauða menn or jörðu, eða settist undir hanga; fyrir því var hann kallaðr drauga dróttinn eða hanga dróttinn." [8]

Sometimes even he called the dead out of the earth, or set himself beside the burial-mounds; whence he was called the ghost-sovereign, and lord of the mounds. [9]

Hmm... The English translation above doesn't fit with the Old Norse, it must be a translation of a text which had "hauga" and "hauga dróttinn". Anyway, hanga" is the genitive plural of the word 'hangi', "a body hanging on a gallows".[10] Haukur 16:48, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

you are right, and I shouldn't have made the edit. "god of the hanged" just sounded a bit strange, but I suppose having been hanged himself made Odin something like a patron of the hanged? In any case a literal translation is preferable when in doubt. dab (ᛏ) 20:39, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

IIRC, the name "god of the hanged" derives from the fact that only Odin received sacrifices through hanging.--Berig 09:54, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Toutatis/Tîwaz

It seems to me that there is a linguistic similarity between the two above. It might offend Modern mores suggesting that Celtic God and a Germanic one may have the same basis, but they both have common attributes. the "Tis" at the end of the former and the "Ti" are surely cognate? Brendandh 00:27, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

*t and *t doesn't correspond for Germanic and Celtic languages. Germanic *t corresponds to Celtic *d, and Celtic *t corresponds to Germanic *þ. According to the comparative method, Týr would correspond etymologically to Irish Dagda. 惑乱 分からん * \)/ (\ (< \) (2 /) /)/ * 14:27, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

in fact, just the -da of Dagda :) --dab (𒁳) 11:41, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Fenrisulfr/Fenrir/Fenris

The article was using all three forms of this name interchangeably, and confusingly. I cleaned it up by leaving the link to" Fenrisulfr", but using "Fenris" everywhere else, since that's the name I'm most familiar with. Of course, I don't know jack about any of this, so if someone who does wants to go in after me and change it, please make sure you're doing it in a way that doesn't reintroduce the confusion. 71.212.19.193 16:53, 11 February 2007 (UTC) A Guy with a Head Cold

Pronunciation

Can we get an IPA pronunciation? This is my favorite Norse god and I have no idea how to say his name... That's sad. ·:RedAugust 09:01, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

From what I've looked into, it's supposed to rhyme with "tier". I'm going to go ahead and put the IPA as "/tɪɚ/" but the R sound may be different depending on dialect. ·:RedAugust 13:48, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

I have no idea how the name is usually pronounced in English but the Old Norse pronunciation was IPA [ty:r] or something close to that. Haukur 13:56, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

how about tyoo as in tuesday? It's an English god too, after all :) --dab (𒁳) 17:49, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure but I do know that I don't appreciate someone removing my pronunciation without including another. If you know it's wrong then you must know the correct answer so please include that. ·:RedAugust 21:49, 14 October 2007 (UTC) 23:00, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

you want to cite a WP:RS then. m-w.com has \ˈtir\. This is for English. Your /tɪɚ/ pretended to be the pronunciation for Old Norse, which was clearly false. --dab (𒁳) 09:34, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

I didn't make my pronunciation "pretend" to be anything. I listed it next to the "Old Norse" transcription but intended it to be the common English pronunciation that I've heard from teachers, classmates, etc. If it's wrong then please submit your "correction" before you remove mine. I'll go ahead and fix it so that it clearly defines it as the English pronunciation but until you can find a source stating otherwise I'd like to see it stay. Every google search comes down to three (actually two) English pronunciations: Behind the Name's "/ˈtɪɚ/" (and many other sites which claim it rhymes with "tier") M-W's \ˈtir\ (But notice that M-W.com doesn't use IPA. Look up "tier" and the pronunciation is exactly the same. Now look up "tier" in Wiktionary [which uses IPA] and you'll see that it's /ˈtɪɚ/). Finally, there's the strange [taɪɚ] which sounds like "tire/tyre" and, to me, seems blatantly wrong.

So, in short: Thanks for giving me the source that I needed to demonstrate that the proper (English) pronunciation of "Tyr" is [ˈtɪɚ]. ·:RedAugust 21:49, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

My Webster's gives it as (tēr, tyr) and defines ē as in ēqual. From my own knowledge I can tell you that the Icelandic pronunciation is IPA [tʰiːr] while the pronunciation in 13th century Old Norse is believed to have been something like [tyːr]. Haukur 22:07, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Now, I should think that Webster's (tēr) would correspond to IPA [tʰiːɹ]. Haukur 22:15, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Hm... aspirations ALWAYS throw me off so you're probably right there. I'm just glad you agree on it rhyming with "beer". The "ɹ/ɚ"thing is a little more complicated though. I'm 99% sure that it's /ɚ/ simply because it's at the end of the word and doesn't correspond to the sound an "initial English R" makes. The /i/ and /i:/ difference is too subtle for me to care about either but if you want to change it feel free. I backed my source so if anything strays far from it rhyming with "beer" then I'll be upset :( It's everyone's encyclopedia though so do as you please ;) .·:RedAugust 03:21, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

It's to some degree a question of how close a transcription you want. English initial 't' is often given as IPA [t], in which case the aspiration is regarded as secondary or unimportant. It's clearly there, though. Haukur 06:50, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for giving me the source that I needed - you are welcome; next time try to do your own homework before complaining. As it stands, I agree with Haukur that the English pronunciation, based on MW, appears to be [tʰiːɹ] ("tîr"). More relevantly, the ON pronunciation is [tyːr] "tür". [tʰiːɹ] just happens to be the de-facto pronunciation of English speakers trying to pronounce the Old Norse. Correct pronunciation is not discouraged. In fact, the The Columbia Encyclopedia recommends pronouncing the English Tiw as "tee-oo", and the Old Norse as Old Norse. --dab (𒁳) 10:38, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

I doubt that the aspiration is of any importance, but if it is the Old Norse pronuncation should probably be [tʰyːr].--Berig 16:13, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

PARENTS

Father of Tyr is Odin, mother is giantess Hrod. Hrod is wife of Hymir. That's why Tyr once was called son of Hymir.