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Delisting

I'll start to delist some series.

  1. Carried by the Wind: Tsukikage Ran (no yuri that I remember; no references stating otherwise.)
  2. Kanon (Didn't watch the series, but there are no references mentioning anything about yuri in it.)
  3. Claymore (no references)
  4. Kiddy Grade (just fanservice which the reviewers don't even talk about)
  5. Neon Genesis Evangelion (I know Maya is supposed to be a lesbian, but just that scene in the movie is not enough, and there are no reference for it either)

Of course, If someone happens to find a reference for one of these series, feel free to restore the title. Meanwhile I'll keep looking for reference for the remaining titles.Kazu-kun 07:26, 4 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know if you could really call this a reference, but there was a single instance of an erotic fantasy Yuichi had in Kanon between Mai and Sayuri: here; not safe for work.--十八 08:22, 4 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
That was only in the PC visual novel though. Still doesn't really need to be on the list.--SeizureDog 11:17, 4 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
But then wouldn't that be putting too much bias on the adaptations? The game came first you know.--十八 01:14, 5 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I'm saying it's misleading if it's not in all of the versions. --SeizureDog (talk) 01:57, 5 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I think that's irrelevant. On the other hand, when dealing with something so minor it's better to have a third-party source. Kazu-kun (talk) 04:26, 5 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

==Both Kanon and Kiddy Grade have Yuri character. In Kanon it is the character Mai and Sayuri. They are not shown much, but are considered a "canon" couple. In Kiddy Grade, Eclair and Lumiere are also considered a couple.

It's not about being considered canon. Either the Yuri is explicit (which doesn't necessarily mean graphic) like Asami's feelings towards Syuri in Myself ; Yourself or is backed up by a reliable reference. Kazu-kun (talk) 18:28, 3 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I am not following you. If there is a lesbian couple in an anime, it will certainly go in the second list. Yuri isn't necessarily explicit. If you want explicit, just stick to the hentai wiki section
You're right, you're not following me. Your take on "explicit" means "graphic", but I'm not talking only about that (I already said so). When I say explicit I also mean stated, as in when a character herself states that she loves another female character. On the other hand, you're right when you say that Yuri isn't necessarily explicit. But in those cases (when it's not explicit) we need reliable references to support the claim. Kazu-kun (talk) 05:28, 4 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
You mean like the author/creator saying that they are a couple? A couple doesn't need to stand on a mountain and yell "I am gay for *insert girl here*" In fact, one of my favorite yuri couples, Harada Chie and Aoi from My Hime, ARE a couple, but they never specifically state it out loud in the series. Does that make them not a couple? not at all.
Kanon is a curious case. From my point of view, the Toei adaptation showed very explicit yuri relationship between sayuri and mai, including several passionate hugging scene and the recurring focus on the earrings sayuri gave mai as a present. In the Kyoto adaptation, their relationship was been greatly toned down and appeared to be merely very close friends, although you can still say that is yuri. Yuri-con website listed Kanon as an anime with yuri elements: http://www.yuricon.org/list/index.html, therefore I would say putting Kanon back into the second list and label "Toei version" on it. About Claymore the anime, I think very few people who have watched it would not say it was not yuri... changeup —Preceding comment was added at 18:26, 24 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Currently, the lists are under cleaning process, so we won't add more titles (or re-list those which have been removed) unless there are third-party sources supporting the claim that there's yuri in those series. Of course, we are constantly looking for references for the remaining titles. The goal is to have the whole list properly sourced. Edit: and that specific list from Yuricon is stated by them as a fan-list, not a focused approach to Yuri: " is meant to be fun. :-)" so it can't be used as reference. Yuricon has material such as essays and other lists that we use as references, but this list is not one of those. Kazu-kun (talk) 18:59, 24 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This reminded me about some other series I wanted to delist:

More delisting

  • Alice Academy (what seems yuri at first disappears, and in the end it's all het. also no references)
  • Agent Aika (no references)
  • Chrono Crusade (no references)
  • Dears (no references)
  • Dirty Pair (There's nothing even remotely close to Yuri in DP. Some reviewers even complain about the lack of lesbian undertones.)

Again, If someone finds a reference for one of these series, feel free to restore the title. I'll keep looking for reference for the remaining titles too.Kazu-kun (talk) 18:51, 3 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm surprised you're not finding references for Agent Aika or DearS -- it's pretty explicit in the former, and coupled with bondage imagery in the latter. I'll see what I can dig up. —Quasirandom (talk) 19:08, 3 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I was surprised myself about Aika, but if you find something, by all means restore the title. Kazu-kun (talk) 19:19, 3 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I have not seen much of DearS, but I do seem to remember some lesbian overtures. But Dirty Pair has no Yuri in it. A character is named yuri, but they are considered a "slash" couple. They were really popular early couple when the whole yaoi and yuri thing was just starting. Kei and Yuri (dirty pair) are extremely straight, so it is all just slash with them.
And about the description of Alice Acedemy. Many yuri themed stories tend to end in a het romance. Especially the early ones. It is rather annoying, cause they sometimes seemed thrown together at the end. It is like "oh ok, I guess I am straight and don't like you anymore. I am going to go be with this guy now."
I see what you mean about not finding references for Agent Aika -- reviewers seem too busy noting new records in fanservice density to bother mentioning anything beyond panty-overload. I'll keep looking, though. —Quasirandom (talk) 04:30, 4 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Right -- I give up. As far as reviewers seem to be concerned, the yuri in Agent Aika is so incidental that it is washed out by the flood of fanservice pantyshots and battle bikinis. At least, that I can find. Gone it remains. —Quasirandom (talk) 23:10, 9 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Kaleido Star should probably be delisted. The series really doesn't have even a hint of Yuri. The source seems to be the product of a single blogger's imagination, and of a cheap off-universe OVA at that.--Son of lucas (talk) 19:38, 23 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The Yuri in that series is good enough for the list in which it's listed. Kazu-kun (talk) 19:50, 23 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Explain how. I've seen the whole series and there just isn't any romantic love implied. Unless we're somehow going in the realm that any close female character relationship is grounds for Yuri elements, Kaleido Star doesn't qualify. At the least, for something this dubious I think we're going to need a better source than a blogger who actively searches for traces of (real or imagined) Yuri elements within his review of a show.--Son of lucas (talk) 03:57, 24 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Well, Mia and Anna are pretty Yuri to me. Regardless, we use Erica Friedman as a source because she's considered an expert on the subject (Erica Friedman's Guide to Yuri (AfterEllen.com)). Furthermore, she has also guest lectured at the University of Illinois and talked at MIT, and is the president of ALC Publishing. Kazu-kun (talk) 04:28, 24 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
It seems she's also acted as a consultant for an article about yaoi in "The Guide", a gay magazine. -Malkinann (talk) 06:50, 20 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

More delisting 2

The titles to be delisted today are:

  • Elfen Lied (plenty of reviews, none says anything about yuri or lesbian content of any kind)
  • Xenosaga (plenty of reviews, none says anything about yuri or lesbian content of any kind)
  • Plastic Little (plenty of reviews, none says anything about yuri or lesbian content of any kind)
  • Ghost in the Shell (plenty of reviews, none says anything about yuri or lesbian content of any kind)
  • Bleach (plenty of reviews, none says anything about yuri or lesbian content of any kind)

As always, If someone finds a reference for one of these series, feel free to restore the title. I'll keep looking for reference for the remaining titles too. Kazu-kun (talk) 19:11, 19 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm really surprised there's no references for Bleach, given there's an openly lesbian classmate with the hots for Orihime, who has to be defended by the other friend, and there's an angsty lesbian backstory romance between two Shinigami, which feeds into how the who Soul Society arc plays out. I believe you're not finding anything -- just surprised. Concur with removing Elfen Lied -- there's nothing more there than some breast-groping by an amnesiac who soon learned better manners. —Quasirandom (talk) 22:22, 19 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
There is also the Lied OVA, Quasirandom, where Lucy has a very close (though platonic and very unlikely romantic) relationship with a human girl. =) But that's subtext, too. Anyway, I was thinking about adding yet another editor comment to the two list sections, asking that no titles are added without a proper reference. Such comments usually help a lot, even though they are not 100% effective. --Koveras ☭ 08:06, 20 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Ah -- haven't seen the OVA. And, indeed, had forgotten that it existed. :P —Quasirandom (talk) 15:11, 20 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I've found a citation for Ghost in the Shell, so I re-added it. -Malkinann (talk) 08:30, 22 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Mass list fact tagging

Now you may think I'm crazy for doing it, but I've just done a mass tag of some of the "yuri as an element" series. We do need to cite the lists before nominating for GA, (assuming that's the plan) and having a few tags in the articles will remind us to do so, and dissuade good-faith nominations. I did do a preliminary google around for the titles before just sticking them with a tag, but I couldn't find anything satisfactory. -Malkinann (talk) 02:40, 23 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

No dispute from me. I was actually thinking it was about time to do something like this last week, but never got around to acting on it -- just as well, as {{list fact}} is a much better template, one I didn't know about, than {{fact}}. In general, we've done a good job of sourcing the lists so far, but the pace has slowed down, enough so that it's time to set a deadline for the rest. (Where by "we" I mean, of course, all you guys.) —Quasirandom (talk) 03:03, 23 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Might I remind you that Wikipedia has no deadline.--十八 05:34, 23 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I don't like the idea of a deadline, I think we get enough of those IRL. I think that now that the list is tagged up as being problematic, we'll naturally go about citing it to get rid of the tags, rather than just letting the list be obvious to those with yuri goggles turned up. -Malkinann (talk) 03:24, 23 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah. Sorry 'bout that -- was up later than I should have been and, tired, what I wrote was not what I intended to convey. I do know, and heartily agree with, the ideal that there is no deadline, but tagging items does give a sense of urgency to finishing cleaning up. —Quasirandom (talk) 14:34, 23 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Mass list cleaning

Well, I referenced all I could and delisted everything else. The following is a list of all the titles I removed. As always, If someone finds a reference for one of these series, feel free to restore the title.

I don't think the article is ready for GAC yet, though. But I'm up to discuss about it. Kazu-kun (talk) 09:04, 23 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Ouran High School Host Club shouldn't be hard to reference: there's rival Takarazuka club with self-identified lesbians. I'll see what I can dig up. Boku no Futatsu no Tsubasa will be hard, given it's not licensed; the main character is mixed gender, but she has at least one lesbian sexual encounter (with one of the two lesbians chasing after her). —Quasirandom (talk) 14:39, 23 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I think I saw a review that discussed the relationship between Alice and Lain some time ago, I'll try digging it up. In Fate/stay night, there is a scene with Rin showing a bit more than sisterly affection towards Sakura and a rather suggestive scene with her and Saber, but that's all arguments there are in favor of her alleged bisexuality. At least, in the anime series. In Code Geass, there is Nina's infatuation with Euphemia and the infamous masturbation scene, but other than that, nothing outside the sub-subtext. Lucky Star may qualify but Yutaka and Minami's relationship can only pass for yuri in a fangirl's eyes. ^^; Kagami/Konata is an exclusively fan speculation, too. Murder Princess, despite having all the attributes of fantasy shoujo-ai, doesn't dwell on it so there won't really be any decisive references for it IMO. Sayonara Zetsubō Sensei contains some fanservice (e.g. Kiri and Chie in the first season), that's all. IIRC Sōkō no Strain has an officially lesbian couple, Martha and Ermengarde, and Lavinia openly infatuated with Sara, so I'm surprised at the lack of references. The same goes for Vandread, with its spaceship worth of lesbian pirates (and at least two real couples and one implied one among them).
PS: Hm, everyone seems to have read BnFnT by now... >___> --Koveras ☭ 16:09, 23 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe if we strike the ones above where we're pretty sure nothing will be found? Just a thought. —Quasirandom (talk) 18:28, 23 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I'd much rather somehow emphasize the ones that are obviously sourceable, just to set some priorities. --Koveras ☭ 20:33, 23 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Italic or bold those? —Quasirandom (talk) 21:22, 23 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Bold font would do the trick IMO. And I'd also suggest only striking the titles that have been referenced to keep track of the process. --Koveras ☭ 06:08, 24 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Shōjo-ai CFD

The related Category:Shōjo-ai has been nominated for deletion, merging, or renaming. You are encouraged to join the discussion on the Categories for Discussion page.

Yuri = Girl on girl love right?

Then why is Negima listed and it's reference goes to a blog that blantly states it's a guy on girl relationship? I'm confused? 68.37.99.66 (talk) 05:37, 13 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Taken from the reference:
As for yuri fans, our canon couple are pretty much separated in this volume. That does not, however, mean there's no yuri. At one point, Setsuna makes a pledge to help Negi with his troubles no matter what. Kamo suggests that this sounds like a love confession, and notes that Setsuna said if she fell for a guy it would be Negi. Setsuna gets very flustered, and says "Look, the one I've got in *my* heart is Konoka-ojousama!" After which Negi promptly starts to tease her about this.
So there is at least some reason Negima is listed.--十八 06:19, 13 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
yeah, The Yuri couple in Negima is Nodoko and Setsuna. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.119.210.17 (talk) 04:49, 10 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Why yuri?

After getting a question on Talk:Yaoi about why do girls like yaoi, I just thought I'd pose the same question here, and ask why do yuri fans like yuri? In yaoi, it's been examined reasonably well in the scads of academic literature on the subject (*jealous*), but I'm just wondering if there's ever been any enquiry for yuri? (one of the academics notes cynically that it's reasonably well accepted, and therefore unexamined, that guys think two girls are HOT, whereas the attempts to find out why yaoi tend to make the girls out as somehow mentally ill). -Malkinann (talk) 22:24, 31 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

But unlike BL (yaoi, shounen-ai), which is primarly targeted towards girls, yuri dosen't have a primary target audience: there's yuri from male-oriented publication as well as female-oriented ones. Therefore, unless we have a well sourced explanation about the appeal of yuri in both genders, any entry about this subject wouldn't be neutral. And neutrality is a must. EDIT: although, reading your post better, it seems you didn't ask this as possible new section. If that's the case, and it was only curiosity... well, I don't really know. I mean, yeah, guys like hot girls, but what about the girls who like yuri... that's a real puzzle lol. Kazu-kun (talk) 03:44, 1 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
What is wrong with girls liking yuri? From all the girls I have talked to, they like yuri cause 1) The stories are usually really good. It spans all genres. 2) The characters are fun, and well developed. Also, yuri can focus on strong female characters. In BL and yaoi (same thing?) There is basically always someone dominating another. But in Yuri, there tends to be equality, a strong female character(s), or a close mentor relationship. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.119.210.17 (talk)
Actually, your points are also summed up on the main page of Shoujo-Ai Archive. A reliable source? --Koveras ☭ 06:24, 11 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Unlikely - it's self-published. :( -Malkinann (talk) 00:24, 15 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I saw this webcomic recently... Unoriginal but plausible. ;) Still, this question was already raised in the GA-class section above, and it was decided that a new section is necessary for the topic (obviously, as soon as some sources surface). --Koveras ☭ 07:46, 1 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Lesbianism in erotica has a source which says that heterosexual males are more aroused by porn-of-two-women than porn-of-man-and-woman. I would like to pursue the possibility of a section about the 'why' of yuri, but given the scholarship drought on yuri (compared to yaoi), it'd be more difficult, if even possible at all. It just seems a bit sexist that there is so much out there on the why of yaoi and so little on the why of yuri. -Malkinann (talk) 09:28, 1 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Well, Yaoi is actually fairly easy to market. It's primary market is very loud and really eats it up. This is probably why there are so many one shots out there. There is a good bit of yuri out there, but it isnt always the focus of the story. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.119.210.17 (talk)

Video games

I don't know if this was discussed before (anyway, if it was, it shoud be on the archive's talk page already), but how about trying to make a section about yuri-related content in certain games (forgive me if I'm wrong, but I think there is something like that in Fear Effect); I have no idea on how this idea came to my head but, if we could find sources about games containing yuri, it would be a great addition. The games that are said to have something are Fallout 1 and/or 2, Rule of Rose, Akai Ito and Sotsugyou 2nd Generation. Greetings.--Twicemost (talk) 02:47, 25 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The current list is not only of manga and anime; light novels, visual novels, games, and any other related Japanese media must be included there as well. For example, Akai Ito is already included. Note, however, that only Japanese media can be included, and only if the characters are depicted in manga/anime style. Kazu-kun (talk) 03:40, 25 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I heard GrimGrimoire featured a romance subplot between Lillet and Amoretta... --Koveras ☭ 07:00, 25 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
And it's true. They even end up living together, as told in the epilogue. Unfortunately, I couldn't find any reference for this game :( Kazu-kun (talk) 07:13, 25 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I didn't notice that list included yuri games too, as the section title was simply Yuri series and I though about something else. Sorry for the overlook. --Twicemost (talk) 22:24, 26 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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