Talk:Irish name

Gaeltacht names

I've added info about Gaeltacht usage. I don't unfortunately know the origins of this or how long it's been around for. I also changed the first line because 'traditional Irish names' to me immediately evoked the likes of Coilin Phadgraig Sheamais rather than Tomas Mac Giolla.Palmiro 22:02, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

5th/6th July edits

Hello Angr. First off, you have done a fantastic job on this article (which is now largely under the Epithets and Surnames and Prefixes sections. I edited the block writing into italics for purely visual reasons, as it looks better (I think! Hope you agree!) I added the second paragraph under Epithets about Luke More and Luke Beg to fill it out a bit (also because Luke Beg Gibbons is my maternal great-great great grandfather)

I'd love to see any more detail you might wish to add to what you've already put in, because its vastly better than what I originally wrote. Also, the idea of contrasting Gaelic and Anglicized names was a very good idea; I hope you don't mind that I expanded it.

Looking forward to reading more of your articles, and perhaps even working with you in future. Go raibh maith agat. Fergananim

I also Expanded on the Irish/Anglicised Comparrison with Aindriú/Andrew (My Great Grandfather and Sons Name) and Also My own Name, I was Christened Daniel but have been dubbed Domhainall since I can remember, I also added Aoife and Eva as it is Commonnly used but Eva is Generally accepted as a Slavic name. 194.73.150.2 11:36, 27 October 2005 (UTC) Domhainall

I made some corrections: Aindriú is etymologically the same as Andrew, so I removed it. The most common Irish spellings of your name are Domhnall and Dónall, so I changed that too. As for Eva, it's a Biblical name (the Latinized form of the Greekified form of Hebrew Hawwah), so it's not just Slavic. --Angr/_{tɔk tə mi} 16:53, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

Usage Questions

I thought that for married women Uí could be used inplace of both Ó and Mac. I'm not an expert, but I'm pretty sure I remember seeing or hearing that usage. Also isn't "MacAleese" the maiden name of President MacAleese? Should the Irish version of her name be Máire Nic Ghiolla Íosa then -- or is she following the example/precedent set by Máire Mhac an tSaoi?

I've never heard of using Uí for a Mac name, but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Mary McAleese's maiden name is Leneghan, so the Irish version of her maiden name is Máire Uí Lionnacháin. Her husband is Martin McAleese (Máirtín Mac Giolla Íosa). --Angr/_{tɔk tə mi} 04:15, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

But why on earth do Irish women use "Mhac" or "Mhic" at all, which means "son of"? For example - I can only find references to Mary Robinson as "Máire Mhic Róibín." In Scottish Gaelic, my own mother tongue, women always use "Nic." I'd be very interested to know why Irish usage is different. C. Macleod, 11:38, 7th June 2006

They're the genitive of the word for son; the word for "wife" bean can be included but is often left out as understood. "Máire Mhic Róibín" is short for "Máire bean Mhic Róibín" (Mary, wife of the Son of Robin), because Robinson is her married name. Ní and Nic are used with the maiden name. Angr (talk) 08:52, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes, of course. Actually, you're more consistent in this then than we are. We use Nic for both maiden names and married names. Ceud (céad) taing. C. MacLeòid

Merge With Irish Given Names

Should the articles, Irish name and Irish given names be merged?

Why Anglicised?

I would like to see included in the article why names (personal names, place names) are anglicised. Is it required? Is there a systematic way? Personal names and place names in foreign languages (those already written in the Latin alphabet) are not usually anglicised.

Other examples I can think of is in Belgium, Finland, and Switzerland because of their bilingualism/multilingualism. But in those cases they usually apply to place names. --Kvasir 08:36, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

I'm afraid I don't really understand what you're asking. --Angr/talk 09:05, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

I'm asking instead of anglicising names like "Padraig mac Aedh Ó Proinntigh" into "Patrick Brontë", why aren't Irish name kept the way it is when appeared in English-language (or other languages) media? For example, French names are not anglicised when appeared in English-language media. Also I want to know if there is a systematic way that Irish names are anglicised, ie: how does "Padraig" become "Patrick"? Are their pronunciations similar? --Kvasir 09:36, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

It's because for many centuries English was the prestige language in Ireland, and for a few centuries speaking Irish was forbidden by law. If you wanted to be taken seriously as a person of education and breeding, you used an English name. In the case of Pádraig and Patrick, the anglicization is clear because they're both derived from the same Latin name Patricius. In the case of other pairs like Cathal and Charles, they're not etymologically related to each other, and the anglicization is just based on tradition. Angr/talk 09:50, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

But are both versions of the names "official"? Do they both appear on a passport and carry the same authority, for example? --Kvasir 00:26, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

Before Ireland was independent, I'm sure only the English version was official. Today I'm not sure, but I suspect everyone uses either their English name or their Irish name as their official name, so only one would appear on passports, etc. Angr/talk 06:36, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

This is indeed the case, but most people who generally use the english form for official purposes would use the Irish form when speaking or writing in Irish. Palmiro | Talk 08:58, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

Ok, thanks. This answers only part of my question though. I'm wondering if solely tradition dictates how names are anglicised. In the article it lists Irish people who are mostly known for their English names, are the Irish versions dervied based on common practice or are they actual official Irish versions. See a similar discussion under HK Government Cantonese romanisation in Talk:Hong_Kong_Government_Cantonese_Romanisation for what i'm trying to get at. --Kvasir 08:00, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

I think it depends on the person. In the list of people better known by their English names, we have both Geoffrey Keating and Douglas Hyde. Now Keating was a native Irish speaker; I'm sure as far as his parents were concerned, his surname was Céitinn and his first name Seathrún. But he's universally known in English as Geoffrey Keating, due to the prejudice against Irish. So in his case, his English name is derived from his Irish name. Hyde on the other hand was a native English speaker, and as far as his parents were concerned, his surname was Hyde and his first name Douglas. But when he became interested in Irish and wanted to use and promote it, he also wanted an Irish name, so he "translated" Douglas "back" to Dubhghlas and Hyde "back" to de hÍde. So in his case, his Irish name is derived from his English name. But this double use is mostly historical. I think today in Ireland you have only one official name, either Irish or English, and if you choose to translate it into the other language, that's strictly informal, and based on common practice and tradition. Does that answer your question? Angr/talk 08:16, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

Pretty much, thanks. I asked this because I fail to see much relationship between Irish and English spelling without any knownledge of Irish pronunciation (such as I). Neither Irish nor English are phonetic to begin with, so there's one problem. If there is no such system in place, is in then possible to have different anglicised spelling of the same name? Oh yeah, it would be nice to incorporate all the above info into the article, or have a new article dealing with Anglicisation of Irish names specifically, which is what led me to this article in the first place. --Kvasir 08:53, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

Well, there's a big difference between this case and the Hong Kong case you linked to above. There, it's just a matter of "How do we spell Chinese names using the Latin alphabet?" This is really more like translation; the saint known as Patrick in English is known as Pádraig in Irish, so people named Patrick in English use Pádraig as their Irish name, and people known as Pádraig in Irish use Patrick in English. And in other cases, the relationship was more vague but became well established: the Irish name Sorcha has no etymological connection with the English (of Hebrew origin) Sarah, but they're both girls' names that start with S and then have a vowel and then an R, so someone decided to "translate" Sorcha as Sarah, and today the equation Sorcha=Sarah is as firmly planted in the common conciousness in Ireland as Pádraig=Patrick. But by no means is either equation set down officially in Irish law. Angr/talk 09:10, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

I'm actually more interested in family names and place names, which are not as easy as paring Christian names equivalent. I do see quite a few similarities between the cases in HK and Ireland. Both places had English as the "more official" language in the de facto bilingualism situation. Irish and Chinese are from a very different language families from English and none of them are phonetic. HK government uses a non-standardised scheme that has become more or less the convention that everyone uses. And as we've just learnt from this discussion, there seems to be no official standard for anglicising Irish names either, yet some sort of system is in place so that there is little argument over which English version is better. The HK romanisation is mostly transliteration of sounds, with a few actual translations. The Irish anglicisation seems to be a mix of translation and phonologic transliteration. Is that the case? --Kvasir 07:10, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

Hmm, just on the legal status of Irish names: I don't think it is codified in statute law, but in practice the Irish version of the name certainly appears to have full legal status even where the person's official documents such as birth certificate etc all use the English form. I'm pretty sure I've seen legal instruments signed by Irish Ministers of State using the Irish form of their name when they have also signed other ones using the English form.

As regards official systems: until 1921 all administration in Ireland was done in English, so nobody had any form of their name that had any official status but the English form. This allowed English forms of surnames to be established pretty definitively for almost every individual family (though not as an equivalent for particular Irish surnames: often different people with the same Irish name would adopt different English versions of it). If there is any uncertainty nowadays, it is generally over the Irish even though that is the original form, historically speaking. My surname, for example, is almost always the correct equivalent for a given Anglicised surname; but my mother's surname we only know theEnglish for, and any Irish reconstruction is uncertain, as there are several Irish surnames which have been Anglicised to this or similar forms, with widel different origins and meanings. All it is possible to do in this case, unless you want to engage in detailed and probably hopeless geneaological research, is to pick the most likely Irish form on the basis of the area of origin of the family - which of course is far from certain. Palmiro | Talk 10:19, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

As regards your comment that "a mix of translation and phonologic transliteration", yes, that would be correct, there are also cases of assimilation to similar English surnames and I think, though no example springs to mind, of mistranslation. You have to remember that all these Anglicisations were done quite informally and without any guiding system, but on the other hand the practice of Anglicising (or romanising) Irish names goes back to before the final conquest of Ireland at the beginning of the C17.Palmiro | Talk 10:31, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

Just to throw in my two cents: It's not entirely true that "personal names and place names in foreign languages (those already written in the Latin alphabet) are not usually anglicised." In fact, it's done all the time, especially when the foreign language name is difficult for an English speaker to pronounce. For example:

The Polish "Warsawa"(with the W's pronounced as V's, hence in Polish it's pronounced "Varsava") is translated into "Warsaw", "Wienn" becomes Vienna, España becomes Spain and "Österreich" becomes Austria. A most extreme example is the fact that "Deutchland" somehow becomes "Germany" in English.

It's only natural for someone like myself, a native English speaker, to be bewildered when confronted by a name like "Dubhghlas". I'd have no idea how to pronounce it.

I'd just like to point out that being neither ethnically Irish nor English I don't mean to make any political statement.

What I really came here to say was that I'm a bit dissapointed that this article is entirely devoted to a "purist" examination of Irish names, and doesn't bother to explain how those names are used in practice, not only in Ireland, but in the Irish diaspora.

For example, according to the article, if one's name is "O'Brien", it means that that person's grandfather was named "Brien". Now I'm a Canadian, and I know that if a colleague of mine is named "O'Brien", it's unlikely that it's because his grandfather was named "Brien." It's almost certain that "O'Brien" is his name because it's been his family name for generations.

It's actually very similar to English. Once, if there was a man named "John", his son's surname would be "Johnson". Of course this is no longer the case, and if a man has the surname "Johnson", it's almost certain that "Johnson" has been his family name for generations.

Again, I'm neither English nor Irish by descent and it is not my intention to create any political controversy. I'm simply a curious fan of all things Irish.Loomis51 01:56, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

Most people use the name given to them by thir parents in Ireland nowadays, So if they were baptised Patrick thats what they would be on Offical forms and so on. The same if they were christend Padric. For Example My name is Kenneth Hynes and I'd never ever call my self Cionnaith O'hEidhin foer any reason, even if I was writing or talking in Irish. Ken 21:19, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Partial list of Gaelic surnames

Regarding the list of "Gaelic surnames" wouldn't it be better to actually list surnames in Irish with their equivalent in English as oppose to examples of how people with their name written in Irish (Douglas Hyde etc etc.). I'm thinking sorta like the list that exists on [1]. Any opinions? Dubhthach

Anglicised Gaelic names are a problem. For example my own surname is "mac Cárthaigh" (and I never use an anglicised version.) This has been anglicised as McCarthy, MacCarthy, McCarthey, Macarthy.. and so on, none of which are used by my family (and we are all native English speakers.) When ignortant (Irish) people ask me "is that Irish for McCarthy" I just say no it isn't. Also People such as Gráinne Seoige (as an example mentioned in the article) are not known by an anglicised name so there is no point mentioning what a possible anglicisation might be when there isn't one in use. It's nonsense.

Even on the list of Gaelic firstnames: Grace is not the same as Gráinne, Charles is not the same as Cathal, etc, there are many Gaelic names that are not translations of English names they exist in their own right and have a distinct meaning and origin.

Something wrong

There is just something wrong with this article giving an anglicised form for names like Tadhg, Cathal, Sorcha, Aoife etc etc etc. Of all the people I know with these names, I have never once thought of them as Timothy, Charles, Sarah, Eve etc etc etc. Those names are foreign to the person, character and my knowledge of them. They are not their names no more than Charles Windsor is Cathal Windsor. Equally if I know somebody called George, Seoirse would be a foreign name to the person I know. He is just George. Full stop. I doubt I'm alone in the general feeling of alienness these "translations" evoke. If I know somebody called Tadhg he is just Tadhg, and nothing else. This part of the article does not reflect reality in Ireland. El Gringo 02:44, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

That reality, however, is comparatively new. For centuries, children named (for example) Tadhg were told when they got to school that their name wasn't Tadhg, it was Timothy. And even today, children named (for example) Sarah are told when they get to school that their "Irish name" (to be used when Irish is spoken) is Sorcha. Angr (talk) 08:54, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Help?

My surname is McNeill, I was wondering what the Irish spelling of it would be. My Dad is of Protestant upbringing, so I am guessing that the name perhaps comes from Scotland? Although his family have lived in Ireland, mainly Donegal for generations. I have guessed that it is "Mac Néill" but i doubt that is correct. Can Someone verify this for me? Thanks.

Your guess at the Irish spelling is completely correct. But you're right that it's probably ultimately of Scottish origin if your family is Protestant, in which case the Scottish Gaelic spelling is... Mac Nèill. —Angr 14:57, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

I would wonder why someone would want the Irish spelling of a name they suspect is of Scottish origin!

Your father being Protestant in upbringing in no way indicates whether or not his name is Irish or Scottish (I'm afraid Angr is in error on this point).

However, I can tell you that your surname is definitely Irish in origin. Whereabouts your family came from in more recent times is something you may (or may not) want to find out. For example, most MacNeills in Ulster became Protestant after the Reformation. However, the MacNeills of the Glens of Antrim remained Roman Catholic. You are descended, through your father's ancestry, from Niall of the Nine Hostages.

What you'd need to find out is if your dad's ancestors ever changed the form of the surname in the past, and what they'd changed it from. This would give you some indication as to a place of origin for your more recent ancestors. Ultimately though, they all lead back to Niall. --Mal 10:26, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

It's my understanding that the origin of my surname, Gilmore, is Mac Giolla Mhuire. However, the only English form listed for Mac Giolla Mhuire in the article is Murray. I want to add Gilmore to the list, but I haven't been able to find a credible citation. Does anyone have any information? 71.41.220.149 16:50, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Fitz

Surely Fitz- cannot derive from French fils but rather from {Hiberno-)Norman fiz (son)? As can be seen, for example in The Deeds of the Normans in Ireland: "Fiz Coleman, le riche reis" (son of Colmán, the great king). Man vyi 16:56, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Prefixes

Just going purely by what my Irish language teacher used to teach us, "Ó" is simply from the Irish ó meaning "of" (not inherently meaning "grandson" at all), and meant "son of" the same as "Mac". "Fitz" was a prefix taken to mean "bastard/illegitimate son of". Given that he moonlighted as a sometime language advisor to the Irish government, I tend to lend weight to his words; is anyone else familiar with these interpretations? Speed and Sleep (talk) 12:28, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Incorrect, I'm afraid. Ó= grandson/descendent of ('Ní' for daughters) mac= son of ('Nic' for daughters). Fitz means no such thing. Fitz is the Norman version of 'Mac'. Fitzgerald= Mac Gearailt. Bastards were just referred to by that word or 'base'. 86.42.111.160 (talk) 06:17, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Spanification of Irish Surnames

I have a question about Irish Surnames. Many Irish immigrated to Latin America and assimilated to their new home countries. Some Irish immigrants went far to the assimilation process and Spanified their surnames. For Example: O'Donoghue becomes O'Donojú, Sullivan becomes Sólivan, Murphy becomes Morfi, O'Farrell becomes O'Ferral, and O'Brien sometimes becomes Obregón. Should this be added in this article or it is not really that important? Lehoiberri (talk) 04:20, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Interesting. Ara sure go for it; Dónall Spáinneach Caomhánach would be happy. At least the Spanish showed up in 1602! (1601 if you're a heretic, of course)86.42.111.160 (talk) 06:12, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Lenition of C and G following Nic/Mhic

I have made a small correction to the article. In Irish, neither C nor G are lenited following nic or mhic: Síle Nic Gearailt, Muintir Mhic Gearailt, Máire Nic Cárthaigh, Muintir Mhic Cárthaigh. (See Chapter 10 of Graiméar Gaeilge na mBráithre Críostaí). An Muimhneach Machnamhach (talk) 18:03, 9 April 2008 (UTC)