Talk:Otherkin

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Here's an idea

Why not make an article ABOUT books ABOUT otherkin. Just like there's an article about videogames about WWII. It doesn't endorse their viewpoint, it just mentions that they exist and summarizes what they claim. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.122.63.142 (talk) 17:27, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Considering that no other spiritual belief, however bizarre, is treated in a similar manner, singling out otherkin for such treatment would be POV, as it would carry the implication that their beliefs are so bizarre they simply cannot be discussed in a primary article and must only be discussed at a step removed from the subject. 76.111.93.56 (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 19:23, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

With respect to the WP:RS issue:

It should be noted that WP:RSE includes the following instructions (bolded for emphasis):

"Articles related to popular culture and fiction must be backed up by reliable sources like all other articles. However, due to the subject matter, many may not be discussed in the same academic contexts as science, law, philosophy and so on; it is common that plot analysis and criticism, for instance, may only be found in what would otherwise be considered unreliable sources. Personal websites, wikis, and posts on bulletin boards, Usenet and blogs should still not be used as secondary sources. When a substantial body of material is available the best material available is acceptable, especially when comments on its reliability are included."

I believe otherkin and similar internet-based subcultures would justifiably fall under the heading of popular culture.

I believe this speaks directly to the use of A Field Guide to Otherkin by Lupa as a source, as well as other texts of a similar nature that have been mentioned like Not in Kansas Anymore by Christine Wicker, and even the more purely metaphysical text Psychic Self Defense by Dion Fortune which mentions nonhuman souls in human bodies in far less than flattering terms. 76.111.93.56 (talk) 19:32, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

I hate to bring up the notability thing again, but are Otherkin even notable? The longer I look at it, the less convinced I am. If there is a complete dearth of real material on them, how notable they are is somewhat questionable. Anonymous became notable when it pulled 7000 people onto the streets, but it wasn't notable before then. Otherkin have never done anything which really resulted in them getting piles of articles, hence the incredibly short, stubbish article. I don't think including material from a lot of these sources is possible without giving them undue weight, which is a major issue which also cannot be ignored. Titanium Dragon (talk) 06:33, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

I believe the issue of the notability of otherkin was settled previously in the original AfD attempts, where it was decided to keep the article and that Otherkin were notable enough for an article. There is also far from a dearth of real material on the subject. Otherkin are mentioned in:

1. The Village Voice article "Elven Like Me"
2. Veil's Edge
3. Field Guide to Otherkin
4. Not In Kansas Anymore
5. Psychic Self Defense
6. Ascension Magick by Christopher Penczak
7. The Psychic Vampire Codex by Michelle Belanger
8. The Vampire Ritual Book by Michelle Belanger
9. Psychic Dreamwalking by Michelle Belanger
10. Real Energy by Phaedra and Isaac Bonewits
11. Handfasting & Wedding Rituals by Raven Kaldera and Tannin Schwartzstein
12. Cults and New Religious Movements by Lorne L. Dawson
13. Religion Online by Lorne L. Dawson and Douglas E. Cowan
14. The Harper-Collins fiction book Colors Insulting to Nature by Cintra Wilson
15. The BBC Radio Play Looking For Angels: Otherkin by Laura Wade
16. The open-access peer-reviewed online literary magazine "The Harrow
17. The College of Wooster course currently referenced in the article
18. An anthropology course at Hofstra University.
19. The re-enchantment of the West by Christopher Hugh Partridge

That's nineteen sources just with few quick searches using google. There is no dearth of source material here.

Considering that these are the best sources speaking on the subject of otherkin, how is using them giving them "undue weight"? Are you concerned that there is another viewpoint on the subject of otherkin which is not being adequately represented by these sources? Referring to them does not mean the article must endorse their position; but it cannot be denied that these are the best sources available on the subject. If you have sources representing an alternative viewpoint, what would those be? 76.111.93.56 (talk) 04:02, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

a flurry of soundbites, most of them mentions-in-passing, does not make for notability. I do not suggest deletion, but unless notability is established, this could become a section redirect to a list entry in list of subcultures or similar. I am sorry, but this "article" is pretty much a dictdef, plus a mention that "otherkin" evolved out of an "elven online community" (without explaining what that was) in the 1990s. This could become a larger article, including discussion of said "elven" community, Therianthropy (subculture) and similar things. The stub as it stands utterly fails to make clear why we even have it. dab (𒁳) 21:27, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

ok, I admit there is at least one dedicated monograph, the Field Guide to Otherkin (2007, ISBN 190571307X). Now that's at least something. "Megalithica Books" is Immanion Press, "an independent publishing company based in the heart of the UK. Specialising in Fantasy Fiction and Esoteric Non-Fiction." This may go to save the standalone article, but we should still envisage reasonable merge scenarios. dab (𒁳) 21:34, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Several of the texts represent more than soundbites. Elven Like Me in the Village Voice is an entire article on the subject. Otherkin are dealt with as full chapters in Veils Edge and Not in Kansas Anymore, in addition to Field Guide to Otherkin being entirely about Otherkin. Psychic Self Defense, while not using the term otherkin, deals with the concept of nonhuman spirits incarnating in human bodies at some length. The others deal more briefly with the term, but seem to think little elaboration is required, thus speaking to the concept approaching general knowledge in pagan circles. The fiction book, literary magazine, and BBC radio play are examples of the term penetrating into pop culture outside of the pagan community and into the mainstream. All of which speaks to the subject of notability. The current length of the article, and the lack of information contained within it, is largely the result of few non-print sources being accepted as reliable enough. Even otherkin websites which have a long history of existence, with multiple print sources specifically referring to them, such as otherkin.net and rialian.com have been deemed unreliable sources of information on what otherkin actually believe; despite the entire otherkin community being an internet subculture. Even the Otherkin FAQ, specifically prepared by the otherkin community as a guide to itself, has been deemed unreferenceable. Vashti maintains a copy of an older version of this article that she worked on heavily; almost all of the sources from it have been deemed unreliable in the past by certain editors who previously decided to police this article. The same editors, it should be noted, who repeatedly tried to link the beliefs of otherkin with clinical lycanthropy. I would suggest it would be appropriate to reevaluate some of those sources in conjunction with the print material on the subject, particularly given that WP:RSE paragraph quoted in my original comment. 76.111.93.56 (talk) 23:48, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Also, as to your previous merge suggestion, as I stated merging Otherkin into the Therianthropy article would be somewhat akin to merging an article on America into an article on New Jersey. Therianthropes represent one subcategory of the group referred to as otherkin, as do vampires, elves, dragons, etc. Therianthropy could conceivably be merged into the otherkin article, however there's a problem with that too... while there is a good bit of overlap between the communities, and while members of the otherkin community consider therians to be a subcategory of themselves, the online therian community exists as a largely autonomous entity, and those members who do not also consider themselves otherkin would protest being included under the term. (Ditto for the vampire subculture.) The best way to really handle the articles is with the understanding that the subcultures consider themselves seperate, much like one would not merge articles on neopagans into an article on Asatru. Actually that may be the best analogy... therian is to otherkin as asatru is to neopagan. While some asatru and all neopagans consider asatru to be neopagan, there are also asatru who wish to distance themselves from neopagans and use the term heathen for themselves. Similarly, while some therians and all otherkin consider therians to be otherkin, there are also therians who wish to distance themselves from otherkin, and they stand as a seperate community and subculture socially. 76.111.93.56 (talk) 00:08, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Updated

I've updated the article to refer to more sources and hopefully give a clearer idea of the notability of the subject in the article itself. Any comments/critiques/questions/concerns? Does this sufficiently address concerns that otherkin do not meet wikipedias notability requirements?

As a courtesy, I'd appreciate it if we could discuss the notability issue here further if it remains a concern before the notability tag is readded to the article, and attempt to build some consensus on exactly what would be necessary to establish notability if the present material is deemed insufficient by any editors. 76.111.93.56 (talk) 02:11, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Also, I'm not sure I did the references correctly... does anyone know the correct way to cite the same source multiple times in the article text, without it appearing multiple times in the references listing? I was a bit confused by that. 76.111.93.56 (talk) 02:20, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Never mind, figured out the references thing and fixed it. 76.21.142.168 (talk) 02:58, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

A minor correction on the "References in Popular Culture"--Otherkin were mentioned in Taylor Ellwood's "Inner Alchemy: Energy Work and the Magic of the Body", not "Multi-Media Magic". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.42.5.40 (talk) 05:28, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Actually they were mentioned in both. If you click the "Multi-Media Magic" link in the article it goes to Amazon.com's full-text preview of Multi-Media Magic, specifically to a search for the term otherkin within the book. The term otherkin appears twice on page 34 of Multi-Media Magic, once in the body of the text and once in a footnote. You are, however, correct that the references to them in Inner Alchemy were overlooked. Sorry about that, I should have known better since I ordered that book at the same time as I ordered my copy of Field Guide. Inner Alchemy will be added to the list right away. Thank you. Jarandhel (talk) 21:14, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Opening Paragraph Rewrite

I think the opening paragraph needs to be re-written. It does not seem to hit NPOV, nor does the "While "Otherkin" are physically human, ethereal/astral/otherwise nonphysical bodies are a different story. The reason I say this is because Otherkins are in fact humans who inherit non-human souls." sound proper for an encyclopedia entry. KiTA (talk) 16:21, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Actually, upon re-reading the article, I think the entire thing needs to be re-written. It almost looks like it was copied from an Otherkin website, and repeatedly mentions "this author" and "I", which is inappropriate. KiTA (talk) 16:26, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

The article was changed by an IP account. Most of the added content was copy/paste garbage from personal websites. I've restored the version that meets all of wikipedia's policy requirements. NeoFreak (talk) 22:26, 21 June 2008 (UTC)