Talk:Aleinu

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Hebrew

In the Hebrew, it only says va'anachnu korim, but not umishtachhavim umodim.

A few more questions

The prayer was originally the introduction to the "kingships" section of the Rosh Hashana Musaf prayer. Therefore, I'm pretty sure the second paragraph was part of that.--Anon.

Yes, Rosh Hashana Musaf includes both paragraphs. Yom Kippur Musaf includes only the first paragraph. At a later date, the first paragraph was added to the end of each service (in some traditions, shaharit only). Luria/Vital held that one should use both paragraphs at the end of all services, and add the verse about "on that day the Lord shall be one and His Name one"; and this has been accepted by Ashkenazim and Oriental Sephardim, while the Spanish and Portuguese still use only the first paragraph. If there are no objections, I shall edit the article to reflect this.

Incidentally, I have frequently attended both Sp.&Port. and Oriental services, and the wording of the "controversial passage" is invariably "shehem mishtahhavim le-hevel va-riq u-mitpallelim el ēl lo yoshia", in other words the same as the article gives for the original Ashkenazi version. I have never come across the bit about "carrying wooden idols": can you give me any authority for that? One website (http://www.morasha.it/sbr/sbr_somekh.html) claims that Italian Sephardim (but not the Italian rite proper) have changed it to "she-HAYU mishtahhavim", they USED to worship.--Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) 12:00, 25 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Agree with Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) on all points here. -- Olve 22:45, 25 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

a few questions/recommendations for this article

Identifying the cantorial tradition used in the sound files, would be helpful
Shouldn't the whole text be included?
Can someone with access to R' Reuven Hammer's statement from Or Hadash, i.e., the one quoted in the article, please verify that he actually wrote "Aleini" and not "Aleinu"? I realize some Ashkenazim actually say "Aleini", but I've never seen anyone actually write it that way.

Tomer ^talk 05:53, 14 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Removing a sentence

The earlier form of this prayer contains an additional sentence:

It is our duty to praise the Master of all, to exalt the Creator of the Universe, who has not made us like the nations of the world and has not placed us like the families of the earth; who has not designed our destiny to be like theirs, nor our lot like that of all their multitude, For they bow to vanity and emptiness and pray to a god which helps not.

(Some Sephardi and Italki communities have a slightly different form of this sentence: who carry their wooden images and pray to a God who cannot give success. )

I have removed the above sentence; it isn't a different form of the prayer. It is exactly the same sentence, obviously with a slightly different English translation. The Hebrew is the same; the translation varies a bit in every siddur. RK 01:17, 13 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

That's rather what I thought. The "wooden idols" is a reference to the verse in Isaiah which forms the basis for the passage, rather than to the passage itself. --Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) 09:54, 13 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Bowing?

I'm not sure how common it is, but I know that my congregation bows during the line "Va'anachnu qor`im, umishtachavim umodim" and then stands up at "lif'nei". Should this be mentioned? soldierx40k 16:49, 4 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]