Talk:Isaiah 53

I Know you want to delete the text. But first, we should figure out a way to effectively link to wikisource. Any ideas? AdamBiswanger1 20:51, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Bob, I hate to keep bothering you and I appreciate everything you are doing, but I gotta disagree with you about removing the text from Isaiah 53. Not only does it make it infinetly easier to understand the article by having a side-by-side comparison, WP:NPS states "Some short texts such as short poems and national anthems are usually included in their article, e.g. Ozymandias". I think this is a short text, or at least borderline. I'm going to put it back. AdamBiswanger1 18:11, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

I am Jewish, and I viewed this page for the first time yesterday. As one may expect, I think the quality of this article is quite poor indeed. I plan to post a very different version within the next few days; I am declaring my intention to do so now. Big Mac

See http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Isaiah_53&diff=114320650&oldid=114320576 Do what you can, but be careful. Any contradiction of the Christian missionary lunatics will just get reverted within 2 minutes. Obviously, as Jews online, we must continue to suffer at the hands of Christians when we try to serve as a light unto nations and bring the truth of G_d's word to them. 72.74.110.248 16:27, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

This page presents the Jewish position very poorly. It reminds of a passage I once read from the New Testament where Jesus "proves" to the Rabbis that one may shuck grain on Shabbat because David was once allowed to eat the Showbread. I'm not surprised that the Rabbis weren't allowed to answer in the new Testament, but I would think it might be different on Wikipedia. I'll see what I can do to make things better. --Eliyak T·C 14:36, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

New Changes

I think the citation of Christian Scholars about the earliest reference to their position in the Talmud, needs to go in the section entitled theories against the nation of Israel.

Also I added in a reference to Psalm 44, which adds weight to the Israel theory.

I want to change the reference to the Talmud as being neither against or for....

Dannyza1981 (talk) 21:15, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

I disagree with the statement that "The earliest known example of a Jew and a Christian debating the meaning of Isaiah 53 is the example from 248 cited by Origen stated above." In actuality, the first such discussion that I am aware of occured between Justin Martyr and a Jewish man named Trypho, in approximately 161 AD. Examples include Chapters XIII and XXXII within his 'Dialogue With Trypho.' On that account, I believe this line should be corrected. 207.239.111.117 12:51, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

My Answer to the discussion above

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Dannyza1981/Sandbox http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Dannyza1981/Sandbox Dannyza1981 (talk) 20:57, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

It`s useful to have the texts next to the dicussion.Andycjp (talk) 01:05, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

I believe Dannyza1981 made other edits besides removing the text. If your only objection was the chapter removal, then your revert undid neutral edits. As for the specific issue of the text, wikipedia is not a primary source. We have wikitext for that (where we have various free bible translations). I would support removing the full text on the basis that it is not encyclopedic, and goes against WP:NOT to include such large quotations of primary sources. -Andrew c ^[talk] 01:43, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Redo the article

I propose the following amendments:

1. Take out the quote of Isaiah 53 in the KJV and Judaica Press. This is an Encyclopedia, not a Christian Missionary debate. You don't need to have the full text, glaring at people if they want to research further, they can, in references and links. (This is also Andycjp's point.

2. The statement that reads: "Jewish and Christian scholars both agree that 52:13 is the natural beginning of the section...."

Is simply not true. http://www.betemunah.org/letters.html: The scroll is not divided into verses; but it has two kinds of divisions into chapters ("parashiyyot"), distinguished respectively as "petuchah" (open) and "setumah" (closed), the former being a larger division than the latter (Men. 32a). Maimonides describes the spaces to be left between successive chapters as follows: "The text preceding the Petuchah ends in the middle of the line, leaving a space of nine letters at the end of the line, and the petuchah commences at the beginning of the second line. If a space of nine letters can not be left in the preceding line, the petuchah commences at the beginning of the third line, the intervening line being left blank. The text preceding the setumah or closed parashah ends in the middle of the line, a space of nine letters being left, and the setumah commencing at the end of the same line. If there is no such space on the same line, leave a small space at the beginning of the second line, making together a space equal to nine letters, and then commence the setumah. In other words, always commence the petuchah at the beginning of a line and the setumah in the middle of a line" ("Yad," l.c. viii. 1, 2). Maimonides gives a list of all the petuchah and setumah parashiyyot as copied by him from an old manuscript in Egypt written by Ben Asher (ib. viii., end). Asheri explains the petuchah and setumah differently, almost reversing the method. The general practise is a compromise: the petuchah is preceded by a line between the end of which and the left margin a space of nine letters is left, and commences at the beginning of the following line; the setumah is preceded by a line closing at the edge of the column and commences at the middle of the next line, an intervening space of nine letters being left (Shulchan 'Aruch).

I propose that the paragraph be left as is, and the following paragraph added, to present the JEWISH position:

From a Jewish perspective, the Hebrew text itself comprises of open and closed spaces that mark of sections. The major section is the Petucha which starts at Isaiah 52:1 and ends at Isa 53:12 . There are intervening Setuma breaks throughout. These divide up the text. The servant song begins at 52:13 (following a Setuma break), again there is a break after Isaiah 52:15. From this alone, it is evident that Isaiah's overarching theme is expressed in Isaiah 52:1, and maybe extended until the end of Isaiah 53:12. This suggests that the servant song, is contextually placed as a reference to Israel. It should be noted that chapter numbering is a much more recent phenomenon, and has gone some alteration, since its conception. These were done firstly by Christians, and then later tentatively adopted by Jews. With this in mind, it is clear that if the whole of Isaiah 52-53 be regarded as a single chapter, rather than two individual chapters, the reference to a suffering Messiah is not at all contextual, or clearcut.

3. Judaism agrees that Isaiah 52:13 and 53:6 COULD refer to a Messiah - this Messiah is not a suffering Messiah, but is exalted. (Cf. 52:14-15).

Therefore I think the Jewish part of this article should be thus amended to:

Isaiah 53 in Rabbinic Sources

Technically, Isaiah 52:13 has been viewed as both Messianic and a reference to Israel. Given the overall context and comparison to the other servant songs, the simple meaning of the verses refers to Israel. More interpretative and esoteric interpretations that are midrashic in nature, consider its Messianic theme (see Targum Yonatan, for example). This is specifically on Isaiah 52:13, and possibly Isaiah 53:6. However, the simple meaning of the verses, is clearly a reference to Israel. Even Targum Yonatan agrees, in Isaiah 52:14-15. The Talmud and Medrashim are replete with allusions and references to the Messianic themes that are hinted to in these verses. The Talmud and Medrashic sources, do not reject the plain meaning, and the plain meaning does not reject the Messianic themes and elements portrayed here. The plain meaning is however, built on the simple meaning of the verses, and this, always has a preference in normative interpretation. This is not to deny the Messianic interpretation, but rather to place it as secondary to the main thrust of the interpretation. Rabbi Moshe Alshich said of the passage, "I may remark then, that our Rabbis with one voice accept and affirm the opinion that the prophet is speaking of the King Messiah, and we ourselves shall adhere to the same view." In Christian church father Origen's Contra Celsus, written in the year 248, he writes of Isaiah 53:

Now I remember that, on one occasion, at a disputation held with certain Jews, who were reckoned wise men, I quoted these prophecies; to which my Jewish opponent replied, that these predictions bore reference to the whole people, regarded as one individual, and as being in a state of dispersion and suffering, in order that many proselytes might be gained, on account of the dispersion of the Jews among numerous heathen nations.

The Mahari Kara (R' Yosef Kara, a contemporary of Rashi in the 11th century C.E.) says the following on Isaiah 52:13 Behold My servant shall prosper: Israel My servant shall be exalted and lifted up, and shall be very high. And [according to] the teachings of our Rabbis: He [Israel] shall be more exalted than Abraham, as it is written: "I have raised my hand toward the L-rd..." [Gen 14:22]. He [Israel] shall be more lifted up than Moses, as it is written: "... as the nurse lifts up the suckling..." [Num 11:12]. And he [Israel] shall be higher than the ministering angels, as it is written: "And they had backs, and they were very high..." [Ezek 1:18].

The important point here is that Mahari Kara, a contemporary of Rashi, referred to "the teachings of our Rabbis", showing this idea of Israel being the servant in Isaiah 53.

Also, In the very first volume of the Talmud, Isaiah 53 is clearly assigned to Israel and the suffering of those involved with Torah, written close to 1000 years before Rashi, these ideas are said to be handed down orally from the Prophets themselves "If the Holy One, blessed be He, is pleased with a man, he crushes him with painful sufferings. For it is said: And the Lord was pleased with [him, hence] he crushed him by disease. Now, you might think that this is so even if he did not accept them with love. Therefore it is said: To see if his soul would offer itself in restitution. Even as the trespass-offering must be brought by consent, so also the sufferings must be endured with consent. And if he did accept them, what is his reward? He will see his seed, prolong his days. And more than that, his knowledge [of the Torah] will endure with him. For it is said: The purpose of the Lord will prosper in his hand.,...It has been taught: R. Simeon b. Yohai says: The Holy One, blessed be He, gave Israel three precious gifts, and all of them were given only through sufferings.. These are: The Torah, the Land of Israel and the world to come."

4. My citation to http://www.virtualyeshiva.com/counter/isaiah53a.swf and http://www.virtualyeshiva.com/counter/isaiah53b.swf Should help to clarify these points.

5. Mainstream Judaism understands that Isaiah 53 refers to the Nation of Israel because that is the simple meaning of the verses, based on context. Its not like Jews dreamed up this theory in the 11th Century, It is based solidly on the text. (this was cited above: Targum Yonatan, the Talmud (Berachos 5a) and Origen's statements all point to this.

6. This is evident from the Context (Isaiah 46, 48), and references in the Talmud (Berachos 5a)

7. I want to add the following two links at the end as additional external links: http://www.virtualyeshiva.com/counter/isaiah53a.swf http://www.virtualyeshiva.com/counter/isaiah53b.swf

Dannyza1981 (talk) 20:27, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for the information on the divisions. As for the current article I would remove the text and do a re-write of the information on the divisions, as a self-published muslim-apologist's site does not meet the standards for citations (though neither does a Jewish site). As for Isaiah 53 being about Israel, I would also present the other interpretations in the Talmud, not just the one which Reformed Judaism adheres to, as Reformed Judaism is in the minority, historically, of what the more ancient interpreters said about this secion; Jewish sources backing this up and affirming this (non-messianic) include, among others, the Babylonian Talmud (Sanhedrin 98b), the Midrash Ruth Rabbah, Targum Jonathan (explicitly translates it to mean Messiah), Zohar, Moses Maimonides, Rabbi Mosheh Kohen Ibn Crispin (who said "having forsaken the knowledge of our Teachers, and inclined after the `stubbornness of their own hearts,' and of their own opinion, I am pleased to interpret it, in accordance with the teaching of our Rabbis, of the King Messiah....This prophecy was delivered by Isaiah at the divine command for the purpose of making known to us something about the nature of the future Messiah, who is to come and deliver Israel, and his life from the day when he arrives at discretion until his advent as a redeemer, in order that if anyone should arise claiming to be himself the Messiah, we may reflect, and look to see whether we can observe in him any resemblance to the traits described here; if there is any such resemblance, then we may believe that he is the Messiah our righteousness; but if not, we cannot do so."); those are just a few. There are also some great Medieval sources of Rabbis rebuking the modernistic interpretations which contradict the older Jewish interpretative history, besides the fact that saying this passage is of Israel contradicts the other scriptures in the Tanakh: it’s just poor scholarship, or perhaps I should say inattentive reading. No offense. Whenever studies are done by reading this passage to kids in Israel, or in public, the Jews themselves say "it's of Jesus"...till you tell them it's from the TANAKH.

And so it’s in the open I am a Christian…but one who appreciate the Jewish history and heritage (being myself of that stock and thankful for it).

And just so I'm not putting-out unbacked claims of "poor scholarship", if this passage was of Israel it could not say the suffering servant said nothing: Israel has always groaned under oppression and persecution--why not? The suffering servant is sinless...Judah is as Sodom and Jerusalem as a harlot (Isaiah). The sufferer not only is a sin-offering (Heb., English is usually "atoned for") but does this for "my people" (the prophet's), who are "my [the prophet's] people"? Israel: the passage is not about Israel, which is plain by just reading the thing in its own context. The list goes on and on.

I propose this article should show the ancient interpretations from Jewish sources, being considerate of the literary devices and references as well, first, before the apologetic-polemic: the older interpretations are more consistent and better adhere to the text, not what polemicists try to read into it. I think it should also, then, present the other views, (NPOV). It's just more honest, and balanced. [note the four tildes never give my screen name, "The Research Persona", only :

tooMuchData

21:51, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Wikitexts

The Chapter Isaiah 53, needs to be in wikitexts I took it out. Also, technically, the issue begins at Isaiah 52:13 for Christians and for Jews Isaiah 52 and ends at the end of Isaiah 53. Readers should be referred to wikitexts to form their own conclusions. Dannyza1981 (talk) 13:42, 28 April 2008 (UTC)